Toad Braking systems June 17, 2003, 05:12:19 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23511I know several people in this group currently tow a toad and use a supplemental braking system. I've kept some info from posts people have made on their braking system but I'd like to get as much input as possible on the various systems available that those within this group have. If you currently tow a toad and have a braking system for it please reply with your review of the system and include any pros and cons you can think of. This info would be helpful to not only me but also several others in the group contemplating towing a toad with their LD. For anyone that does tow a toad and doesn't use a braking system for whatever the excuse or rationale is you should read what Ford says about using one! Don't think that because of the GVWR and/or GCWR you can tow without them. Your state or those you'll travel in may not require them for a car towed four down but that doesn't mean you don't need them! Per Ford you need supplemental brakes when towing anything over 1500lbs! Read the following documents and look up the word URGE in your dictionary. Then get yourself a supplemental braking system! The $800-1300 or so it costs is only a one time charge, unlike annual insurance premiums, and it could save a life or avoid serious bodily or property damage, insurance doesn't do that! Think of the value of the equipment you are protecting and how little this added "insurance" costs in relationship to it. http://www.fordvehicles.com/help/guides/haulingandtowing/http://www.fleet.ford.com/downloads/Towing/10-12_thingstoknow.pdfThanks in advance to anyone who replies with info on their braking system.Mike R. PS: In a previous post reply I mentioned that SMI had several systems ranging from almost $800-1100. That was an error! They range from almost $800-1300 depending on model and features.
Re: Toad Braking systems (30 lines) Reply #1 – June 17, 2003, 05:31:48 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23513We tow a Honda CR/V behind our 2001 MB, using a BrakeBuddy breaking system. When it is set up properly, it works well. Here are some opinions: 1. Setup is relatively simple. (5 min or less).The unit is inserted and removed with ease. I have ad some problems(later) that may have been due to the unit not being propperly alligned with the driver seat. 2. The unit is powered by the CR/V using the "sigarette lighter". I can drive for three days with out draining the CR/V battery. 3. The CR/V key MUST be in AUX mode. Once I left thekey in drive. The battery drained in one day, and the towed miles accumulated on the odometer. 4. There are two dials to adjust (pressure and sensitivity). I have spoken to owners that use the default settings. I use slightly lower settings. 5. I have had one scary experience. Slowing down at about 30 MPH the front wheels locked up. One tire had to be changed. My best explanation is that the unit was not anchored propery, the brake pressure was set too high, and the sensitivity was too high. Problem has never occured again. 6. I have the wireless monitor unit that lights a red light in the LD whenever the Bakkebuddy activates. I have learned to drive such that this rarely happens.Hope this helps.Arne
Re: Toad Braking systems (30 lines) Reply #2 – June 17, 2003, 09:02:50 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23524QuoteWe tow a Honda CR/V behind our 2001 MB, using a BrakeBuddy breaking system.Quote5. I have had one scary experience. Slowing down at about 30 MPH the front wheels locked up. One tire had to be changed. My best explanation is that the unit was not anchored propery, the brake pressure was set too high, and the sensitivity was too high. Problem has never occured again. Arne Has any one heard of a braking system on a toad that will activate the ABS (anti lock braking) system on the toad. I suspect that it would be to complicated and expensive but thought I would tap this vast store of knowledge.JerryCO wannabe
Re: Toad Braking systems (30 lines) Reply #3 – June 17, 2003, 09:19:46 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23526Quote6. I have the wireless monitor unit that lights a red light in the LD whenever the Bakkebuddy activates. I have learned to drive such that this rarely happens.Hope this helps.Arne Arne, I use the Brake Buddy and have been pleased so far. Curious about point 6. Do you mean you try to decelerate slowly so as not to ever activate the Brake Buddy? I was under the impression that the purpose of the aux. brake system was to assist in the overall braking function, not avoid it - so as to have it complement the coach's braking system/activity. What's your opinion? What sensitivity setting do you use?Chris Horst
Re: Toad Braking systems (30 lines) Reply #4 – June 18, 2003, 08:12:08 am Yahoo Message Number: 23531QuoteArne, I use the Brake Buddy and have been pleased so far. Curious about point 6. Do you mean you try to decelerate slowly so as not to ever activate the Brake Buddy? Yes, I am just trying to be a smooth driver. A
Toad braking systems Reply #5 – June 17, 2003, 07:45:53 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23521Mike, When it comes to toad braking systems, I believe there are 2 kinds to choose from. I. Proportional braking. 2. On-Off braking. On the surface, proportional braking seems the logical choice. On the other hand you may not want to suffer the additional brake pad wear on the toad with the brakes being applied every time the LD brakes are applied. Before there were supplemental braking systems, we towed an 81 Accord which was light enough to be hardly noticeable. Except, when in a panic stop condition, and that Honda came close to pushing us into the back of a Greyhound bus, fortunately we were only doing 60 mph. So my thinking was skewed toward an ON-OFF braking system. I liked the idea of being able to set our "Brake Buddy" sensitivity to come on only when really needed. For normal slow down and stop for a traffic light there is no toad braking. When stepping hard on the LD brake pedal, supplemental braking kicks on. And as Arne was explaining, it is simple and easy to install. Moving it to another car is not a big problem. I think the toughest part of installation was wiring in the break-away feature, which is only because I was nit picking for a hidden installation. It has worked well for us. BTW I have not had any dead battery problems, or toad brakes unexpectedly coming on when going downhill as suggested by Brake Buddy competitors. Of course that could be because of the way I have set the system up, to only come on during hard braking. Anyway, my $.02 worth.Arne, it could be the brake lock-up you encountered was because the vacuum system was not bled off. Any time the toad engine has been run, it is a good idea after engine shutdown to pump the toad brake pedal 3 or 4 times to kill the vacuum, so the vacuum assist will not lock up the brakes the next time the toad brakes are applied. I can't think of any other possible cause.Tom.
Re: Toad braking systems Reply #6 – June 17, 2003, 09:23:55 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23527Tom wrote: "I liked the idea of being able to set our "Brake Buddy" sensitivity to come on only when really needed. Of course that could be because of the way I have set the system up, to only come on during hard braking."QuoteTom. Tom, what sensitivity setting do you use on the Brake Buddy to achieve your braking pattern?Chris Horst
Re: Toad braking systems Reply #7 – June 18, 2003, 06:38:45 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23543"I believe there are 2 kinds to choose from. I. Proportional braking. 2. On-Off braking."Tom,I am aware of the various braking systems available and have been researching them since we decided we wanted to get a motorhome. Several years before we even ordered our LD in April 2000. I've talked to lots RVers with the various types just like I did with leveling systems. Both are big-ticket items and ones I want to get what I consider to be the best choice for me after analyzing all the info I can. Thanks for your input!I also want to thank Arne, and Chris for their input as well!Personally from all the info I've gathered I currently have the VIP Tow Brake as my first choice. I also found a much more complete comparison of the various systems on a different VIP Enterprises web site from the one that has been posted previously: http://www.towbrake.com/chart_p.htmlThat chart only includes a total of 10 different systems. The other one has a total of 14 systems compared including some of the more popular ones not on the other list. The website for anyone interested in it is: http://www.viprv.com/towbrake/chart.htmlThere's lots of good info to be found on the web, many of the sites have been mentioned here before. Having info and reviews from owners especially members of this group and those that have used more than one system in the past is invaluable. I encourage anyone that is thinking of towing a toad to ask as many people as you can for their opinions on the braking system they have and use it in conjunction with all the other data you can find to make your decision.I know there are a few other members in this group with braking systems and have read some previous reviews of them in the past but I'd like you all to give updated reviews if and when possible. There may be others that haven't talked about what they have yet as well. I know some of you are on the road traveling so it could be more difficult to reply right now. I know that Jonna and Steve Chandler have the VIP Tow Brake. Sarah has the Unified Tow Brake from US Gear. Kevin (KWMonkey) has the new Blue Ox Apollo system that I know had a recall at one time based on discussion in this group. I don't recall any other systems being talked about but there may be some others. I'd like to get input and reviews from all of you that have them if/when you can. Please be as detailed as you can and include what you like and possibly don't like about the system. Knowing the pros and cons from individual user viewpoints is very helpful!Thanks in advance!Mike R.
Re: Toad braking systems Reply #8 – June 19, 2003, 05:11:50 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23577Mike R. Mike what has your research shown about the advantages of the mercury switch & brake light braking system vs the vacuum braking system? Our choice has come down to two supplemental braking systems, the VIP Tow Brake and the Toad Stop system. From what I have read both are very good. The expanded supplemental braking chart from VIP was very informative. Thank you! But of course, the VIP people are telling us something from their own perspective. Other than that, we'd be very interested to know what led you to choose one over the other. Thanks in advance! Bobbie
Re: Toad braking systems Reply #9 – June 23, 2003, 12:06:09 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23709"Mike what has your research shown about the advantages of the mercury switch & brake light braking system vs the vacuum braking system?"Bobbie, I don't understand this question! The mercury switch and brake light is the sensing mechanism to activate the brakes for the VIP Tow Brake and it uses an electric activation system. The vacuum braking is the activation type for the Toad Stop and it uses only the brake light as a sensing mechanism and I don't really like that. The problem with this is that brake light switches can go bad. I had that happen on my first Ford Econoline van and had to replace it. I like the fact that the VIP Tow Brake takes two signals to activate the brakes automatically and not just one with that being the brake light. I also like the fact that it doesn't require cutting into the braking system that can possibly void a new car warranty on the brakes. I know the manufacturers of these types of systems tell you it doesn't but Banks also tells you their system doesn't void the warranty and I know people that had problems after installing a Banks system on their Ford E series Class C and Ford refused to fix it under warranty due to the modifications. They had to pay for the work to be done and sue Banks to be reimbursed. I also like many other features of the VIP Tow Brake and that's why it's my first choice right now. I want something I can move to a new or second vehicle and install myself that won't require I modify the existing toad brake system to accommodate it. I also want something I can manually engage and disable from the motorhome and adjust the sensitivity of while driving. The VIP system seems to cover the features I want the best of all systems and the expanded list compares it to other systems I wanted comparison info on that the other page didn't include.In my research I have found nobody that has a supplemental system that overall isn't satisfied with his or her choice. Some may not be 100% satisfied with all aspects of their system but overall where satisfied with it. None of them would ever go without a braking system after having one!"The expanded supplemental braking chart from VIP was very informative. Thank you! But of course, the VIP people are telling us something from their own perspective."Actually I think VIP is really giving a very good objective comparison of the various systems. They show the features of all systems quite fairly letting you know a lot about each one. I don't really think they weigh it so theirs comes out looking better as is often the case with such comparisons. Most manufacturers intentionally set up the comparison so their product looks better without telling the whole story or showing all the features or vital info of each system to make the comparison fair. I don't think the expanded comparison page does that, but that's just my opinion. I did feel the other comparison chart didn't tell the whole story though and left out important competitors I also wanted to see compared.Mike R.
Re: Toad braking systems Reply #10 – June 23, 2003, 05:19:48 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23718"In my research I have found nobody that has a supplemental system that overall isn't satisfied with his or her choice. Some may not be 100% satisfied with all aspects of their system but overall where satisfied with it. None of them would ever go without a braking system after having one! "MikeI too have been researching toad brake systems for the last two years . I have talked with several dozen owners and yes, everyone is satisfied with them. It's hard to believe that no one was unhappy. Several DP owners thought it was a waste of time (due to the large weight difference) but all the Class C owners liked them. It does not require a tremendous amount of toad braking to make a difference so any thing that provides moderate braking works in most situations. No one I talked with had owned more than one system so no one was able to state a preference for one system over another.The VIP Tow Brake is on my short list of possibilities. I need something that is easily transferred to either of our vehicles. I also like the 'two signal' activation, with an indicator light. At the present, the SMI-4 wire system is the most appealing. Having the vacuum brake booster operational enables brake operation with a much lower pedal pressure than the VIP Brake. This is not a real issue with lighter cars but my truck is heavier and is very hard to stop without vacuum boosting. The SMI does require adding a tee into the booster vacuum line. I will buy a length of vacuum line and make a second hose for each vehicle with the tee installed. If the car requires dealer service, the stock, uncut hose can be installed in just a minute or so. I normally perform most my own work so this shouldn't be much of a problem if I go this route. Even with the VIP Brake, a dealer might deny warranty work on the brakes. They might come up with something about 'excessive pedal pressure'. The VIP leaves visible hardware in place when not in use. Many dealers will do anything to deny warranty work.Other than the vacuum issue, both the SMI and VIP are similar in operation, although the way they do it is very different. Neither use unusual technologies; both can be built with off the shelf components. Either is good choice IMO for your needs.Larry
Re: Toad braking systems Reply #11 – June 23, 2003, 05:23:44 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23719Mike R. Thank you for your response on the brake systems. We will be picking up our LD in Oct-Nov and like you want the safest system. I agree with your veiw of VIP objectivity. Thank you again. Bobbie
Re: Toad braking systems Reply #12 – June 23, 2003, 07:35:28 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23727"At the present, the SMI-4 wire system is the most appealing. Having the vacuum brake booster operational enables brake operation with a much lower pedal pressure than the VIP Brake. This is not a real issue with lighter cars but my truck is heavier and is very hard to stop without vacuum boosting."Larry, SMI is one I was also interested in. That's why I asked the question about them when I saw the post for the Saturn toad being sold with the SMI system. I also wanted to see the comparison of it in the VIP chart and it wasn't in the other chart that was posted in this group before but is on the expanded chart I found. I like several things about the VIP better than the SMI though. I like the VIP for the manual override and operation and the hot brake warning in the M/H showing overheated toad brakes. I also like that it trickle charges the toad battery when towing so you won't have a dead or weak battery from operating it. There are several features I like about it. I do think the comparison chart on the VIP site doesn't compare the higher end SMI system properly though but compared to the 2 more popular versions (FourWire and PlugAndPlay) it is a fair comparison and the ones it doesn't compare fairly (CoPilot and SilentPartner) cost more than I can get the VIP system for."Even with the VIP Brake, a dealer might deny warranty work on the brakes. They might come up with something about 'excessive pedal pressure'. The VIP leaves visible hardware in place when not in use.> Many dealers will do anything to deny warranty work."It's true some dealers will do a lot to avoid warranty repairs but they can't do it for "excessive pedal pressure" since the Federal law requires that vacuum assisted brakes be able to be applied and stop your vehicle. That law requires the brake pedal assembly be strong enough to have repeated "excessive pressure" applied to the brakes without damage to the firewall or any other part of the braking system. Auto manufacturers must comply with that law and test the brake assembly to make sure it does! Some sales people and manufacturers of braking systems have used the fear of firewall damage or brake pedal assembly failure that they say non-vacuum braking systems may cause to sell their systems that utilize the vacuum assist system, but they are preying on those that don't know the law! I'm not worried that an electric activator won't be able to give adequate pressure to the brakes, nor would I worry about an air pressure activator not having enough force to do it without the vacuum assist. I do know how the brakes feel when the engine isn't running or the vacuum system fails since I've had it happen in the past with a car I was driving( not my own). I also rode in a towed car to apply brakes before so I know first hand what kind of pressure is required to do it. I'm not worried about the floor mounting bracket with the VIP or pushing against the seat with the SMI being major issues. As you have said either will most likely do a fine job but I'm leaning more toward the VIP system for several features it has that I really like.Mike R.
Re: Toad braking systems Reply #13 – June 25, 2003, 08:31:10 am Yahoo Message Number: 23760"I like the VIP for the manual override and operation and the hot brake warning in the M/H showing overheated toad brakes. I also like that it trickle charges the toad battery when towing so you won't have a dead or weak battery from operating it."MikeSMI's Four-wire brake unit has the same features. It can be operated manually from the MH's drivers seat. It has a `Brake on' indicator light, which gives the same information that, the VIP unit does. VIP may have a timer that measures how long the brakes have been on but it does not `know' if the brakes are overheated. It has no sensors that would measure the brake temperature. The SMI Four-wire has a connection between the MH's battery and the toad battery to keep the toad's battery charged. See the following link for the Four-wire wiring diagram. http://www.smibrake.com/fourwire.html"That law requires the brake pedal assembly be strong enough to have repeated "excessive pressure" applied to the brakes without damage to the firewall or any other part of the braking system. Auto manufacturers must comply with that law and test the brake assembly to make sure it does" Owners of the Banks exhaust system have this same situation. You need to have a lawyer on retainer to get your 'legal rights' when the dealer decides to not honor the warranty.Larry
Toad Braking Systems Reply #14 – June 25, 2003, 12:21:49 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23771Mike R. - The August issue of Motorhome magazine has a comprehensive article on many braking systems. No recommendations, of course, but a fairly complete analysis of what is currently available. It lists the features of the various systems, and should help the prospective buyer reach a decision. One conclusion: you SHOULD have a braking system on your toad!Gary
Re: Toad Braking Systems Reply #15 – June 25, 2003, 01:32:34 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23773"The August issue of Motorhome magazine has a comprehensive article on many braking systems. No recommendations, of course, but a fairly complete analysis of what is currently available."Gary,Thanks for the heads up on that article. It ceratinly doesn't surprise me that they wouldn't make any recommendations! After all they do want the advertising dollars from all of the different manufacturers! They aren't Consumer Reports who doesn't take ads that can make them show bias and work only revenue collected from subscribers. However I no longer subscribe to MotorHome magazine but I'll try to see if my local library has it. It would figure that now that I don't subscribe they've had a few articles that I would have been interested in reading the Lazy Daze review, the one on hydraulic levelers, and now this one. I know I got the best Class C anyway, a Lazy Daze, and feel I got the best hydraulic leveling system, Big Foot but I would have liked to see what they said about both anyway."One conclusion: you SHOULD have a braking system on your toad!"ABSOLUTELY! Regardless of what you're towing it with or what the "law" says. I can certainly say that we won't be towing one without a braking system for it!Mike R.
Re: [Life With A Lazy Daze RV] Re: Toad Braking Systems Reply #16 – June 25, 2003, 07:14:44 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23794"The August issue of Motorhome magazine has a comprehensive article on many braking systems. No recommendations, of course, but a fairly complete analysis of what is currently available." - Gary"However I no longer subscribe to MotorHome magazine but I'll try to see if my local library has it." - Mike R.For those of you who don't subscribe, they have a web site athttp://www.motorhomemagazine.com/>www dot motorhomemagazine dot comHugh and Yuli 30' IB, Bay City, TX[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Toad Braking Systems Reply #17 – June 26, 2003, 11:40:30 am Yahoo Message Number: 23819"For those of you who don't subscribe, they have a web site at http://www.motorhomemagazine.com/>" Unfortunately the website doesn't have all the articles but they will sell you one for $3.95 and you can find out what back issue an article was in and request the article or buy the back issue if they still have copies available of the issue. They do have some articles or excerpts from them but not the entire magazine is online. How else would they get you to buy the magazine if they put it on the Internet where you can get it free? You can get a lot of good free info at the site but not many of the articles. I did try to look at the articles I had an interest in online but none where available unless I bought the issue or article. The Lazy Daze 30' article shows a link and shows on the cover articles for May 2003 but the MH Test article is a blank page except for the frames.Mike R.
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