replacement batteries June 10, 2003, 06:54:37 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23191We have just bought a 1990 26 RL LD. The batteries needed to be replaced and we have ordered Lifeline marine and recreational batteries. They are Absorbed Glass Mat technology (AGM). They are a sealed acid battery. The cells are sealed with pressure relief valves that confine any gases produced during operation. These gases are then recombined back into the water, substantially eliminating the loss of water from the cells and need for water replenishment. Anyone used these batteries? What do you think? We know they are twice the price of flooded electrolyte batteries, but at least we will not have to continually check for water. We first heard about these batteries at a Life on Wheels Seminar (we attended in Harrisburg, but they now have three other locations and give the three-day workshops there -- University of Idaho, Bowling Green , KY). Surely worth the time and $ and a must for first-time RV buyers. Bill and Melissa in Cleveland, Ohio
Re: replacement batteries Reply #1 – June 10, 2003, 07:10:04 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23192QuoteWe have just bought a 1990 26 RL LD. The batteries needed to be replaced and we have ordered Lifeline marine and recreational batteries. They areQuoteAbsorbed Glass Mat technology (AGM). They are a sealed acid Should be a good choice. Note though that flooded cell batteries lose water in normal operation and AGM do not, yet either are at risk if overcharged. If your converter is original, you might want to upgrade to a more sophisticated model. If you rarely plug in and use solar charging, this should not be necessary. If you are replacing 6V batteries, don't forget to rewire for parallel.Steve
Re: replacement batteries Reply #2 – June 10, 2003, 07:29:28 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23195"The batteries needed to be replaced and we have ordered Lifeline marine and recreational batteries. They are Absorbed Glass Mat technology (AGM)." You can't do better than AGM! I have gel batteries, which have most of the same advantages, but will replace them with the more durable AGMs when the time comes. (Not that there's any sign they need it!) Either type is a joy to own, since they never require maintenance or checking, and typically last much longer than the less expensive wet cells that are standard in RVs.But as Steve pointed out, both gel and AGM batteries have somewhat different charging characteristics from conventional wet cells, and in particular are intolerant of overcharging and overvoltage. Your 1990 rig has a fairly crude Magnetek battery charger ("converter") that's very likely to damage your new batteries by overcharging them. I strongly recommend replacing it with a modern two-stage or three-stage charger--and make sure the setpoint adjustments for the various charging stages are configured for AGM batteries, not wet cells! Otherwise your investment in batteries could be cooked literally overnight.Andy Baird :-)
Re: replacement batteries Reply #3 – June 10, 2003, 07:43:27 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23198QuoteYour 1990 rig has a fairly crude Magnetek battery charger ("converter") that's Quotevery likely to damage your new batteries by overcharging them. I strongly recommend replacing it with a modern two-stage or three-stage charger--and Quotemake sure the setpoint adjustments for the various charging stages are configured for AGM batteries, not wet cells! Otherwise your investment inQuotebatteries could be cooked literally overnight. Also, if you have solar, check into your solar charge controller. The one in our 2002 periodically runs an equalization cycle at something like 14.2V. I believe that newer solar charge controllers can be jumpered for gel-cell and AGM batteries.Art
Re: replacement batteries-now converter upgrade Reply #4 – June 10, 2003, 10:23:00 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23206--- >QuoteYour 1990 rig has a fairly crude Magnetek battery charger ("converter") that's Quotevery likely to damage your new batteries by overcharging them. I strongly recommend replacing it with a modern two-stage or three-stage charger--and Quotemake sure the setpoint adjustments for the various charging stages are configured for AGM batteries, not wet cells! Otherwise your investment inQuotebatteries could be cooked literally overnight.Andy Baird :-) Another timely thread for a "new used LD" owner reading the manual every spare moment. It warns against overcharging the batteries by leaving the LD plugged in to shore power for a long period of time. It then says to switch off the 120V 15 amp circuit breaker to cancel the battery charger, converter, 120 V receptacles and 120 V refrigerator operation. Seems like you can only run the generator and microwave on 120 then. That seems to negate a lot of the reasons to be hooked to shore power. So I hope I can get some answers to a few questions. I did a search of the archives, but didn't find these specific answers.1. Andy, are you refering to the Magnatek 7300 series when you refer to a modern two-stage or three stage charger? If not, what make and model is appropriate? 2. Would you be able to stay connected to shore power for 4-7 days, not switch off the 120V 15 amp circuit, and do no harm to the batteries with the new converter? 3. Until a new converter is installed, how long do you think "a long period of time" actually is? I did read that if the batteries bubble and get warm, they are overcharging, but have no idea how quickly that might happen.( Now we know why we never had good batteries on our old '84 trailer!) Thanks for all the help both past, present, and probably future. Mary & Ron Tribbett '97 MB
Re: replacement batteries-now converter upgrade Reply #5 – June 10, 2003, 10:54:41 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23207I don't own a Lazy Daze, but have updated a old tecnology converter to new high tech converter just last year on another brand motorhome.Truecharge 40+ converter is a multi stage charger that won't cook your batteries, and you can add a remote monitor for it as well. I purchased the charger from VIT electronics ( http://www.vitelectronics.com/statpower.html ). I bought the SP40, and the remote monitor SPR40, $400 delivered to our door.Dan
Re: replacement batteries-now converter upgrade Reply #6 – June 10, 2003, 11:00:33 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23208The Magnatek 7300 series is the best replacement for the 6300 series you probably have there now. Good solid state technology, multi- step quiet, and you can do the replacement yourself because it uses exactly the same form factor. Figure on an hour to an hour and half if you're not used to electrical work.
Re: replacement batteries Reply #7 – June 10, 2003, 11:01:41 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23209Andy, from what you've been able to gather, what model of AGM batteries are good for a (2)12volt parallel battery system or a (4) 6volt in series battery system ?ThanksJC
Re: replacement batteries-now converter upgrade Reply #8 – June 10, 2003, 11:06:28 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23210Sorry for two posts but to answer the question below: (2. Would you be able to stay connected to shore power for 4-7 days, not switch off the 120V 15 amp circuit, and do no harm to the batteries with the new converter?)Yes, I stay plugged
Re: replacement batteries/converter upgrade Reply #9 – June 11, 2003, 08:49:10 am Yahoo Message Number: 23225Seems as if all Mary and Ron's questions were answered overnight (isn't this group great?) except one: "Until a new converter is installed, how long do you think 'a long period of time' actually is? I did read that if the batteries bubble and get warm, they are overcharging, but have no idea how quickly that might happen.( Now we know why we never had good batteries on our old '84 trailer!)" A cheap or out-of-adjustment converter can cook a wet-cell battery--destroy it!--literally overnight. I know somebody who had exactly that happen to his. And AGM batteries, as mentioned, are even less tolerant of overcharging than wet cells. Therefore my advice is to NOT connect your new AGM batteries to your old converter at all. Considering how much those new batteries cost you, it just isn't worth the risk! Wait until you get a new Magnetek 7300 series or TrueCharge converter. (Or you could go for broke and put in one of the larger Prosine inverters that also has a multistage converter/charger.) "what model of AGM batteries are good for a (2)12volt parallel battery system or a (4) 6volt in series battery system?" I can't advise you on specific models, because it depends on what will physically go in your coach. You want the biggest-capacity batteries you can fit, obviously. Gertie has two Group 24 12V gel batteries and two Group 27 12V gel batteries, because that's what her previous owners could squeeze into the two available compartments when they did their big electrical upgrade. (All four batteries are wired in parallel for a total of 314 Ah capacity.)Andy Baird :-)
Re: [Life With A Lazy Daze RV] Re: replacement batteries/converter Reply #10 – June 11, 2003, 11:10:09 am Yahoo Message Number: 23230Andy, Need you opinion. Is it worth putting in the AGM batteries and a Magnetek 7300 or TrueCharge converter in a 1990? We do plan to keep it but just wonder...... I do have the $ so that really is not the problem. The age of the LD is. Thanks. Bill
[Life With A Lazy Daze RV] Re: replacement batteries/converter upgr Reply #11 – June 11, 2003, 01:01:10 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23232"Is it worth putting in the AGM batteries and a Magnetek 7300 or TrueCharge converter in a 1990?."MelissaI have to take exception with the suggestions about using AGM batteries. I find them better suited for installation in boats where access and ventilation are limited and high rates of charging are the norm. Your LD has an easy to service, vented battery compartment. Using a mirror and a turkey baster, servicing the battery is an easy job that needs to be done only a couple times a year. The cost for AGMs is much greater than the cost of a set of Trojan 105s. The increase in life span is not enough to pay for the extra cost of an AGM battery vs. a wet lead-acid battery. AGMs cost several times more than a comparable wet battery. My last set of wet deep-cycle batteries lasted almost eight years before needing replacement, not bad for two $75 batteries. If you were planning on adding an extra bank of batteries in an unvented storage compartment, then AGM would be an excellent choice.The 6300 series Magnetek converter has served hundred of LD owners for years before the solid state 7300 converter became available. If you are not having problems, why 'fix' it. On the positive side, the 7300 does provide a much better battery charger, ours will put out over 40 amps into a discharged battery. The DC output is much cleaner and less likely to cause electrical interference to electronic gear such as TVs. If you have adequate charging capability and do not suffer from electrical noise, changing the converter is not needed unless you do change to the AGMs.Larry
Water Filters Reply #12 – June 11, 2003, 03:29:08 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23245Is it possible to install filters that will filter all of the water before it comes into the LD? I was thinking that it would make sense to install a double filtration unit with sediment and carbon filters to filter all of the incoming water. That way all of the water would be clean and you wouldn't have to filter the drinking water. Does this make sense and is there enough room to install filters of this type?Thanks,Dave Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Water Filters Reply #13 – June 11, 2003, 04:22:57 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23249"Is it possible to install filters that will filter all of the water before it comes into the LD? I was thinking that it would make sense to install a double filtration unit with sediment and carbon filters to filter all of the incoming water. That way all of the water would be clean and you wouldn't have to filter the drinking water"Dave Sediment filters are a good idea for keeping the big stuff out of the water tank. An activated carbon filter removes the chorine from the water, among other things. Removing the chorine, a disinfectant, allows more things to grow in the tank. Carbon filters are fine if you are hooked up to a water supply and not using the on-board water supply. IMO, the best solution is using a sediment filter when filling the tank, a dual filter when hooked up and having a Nature Pure countertop filter for all your drinking water. A dual sediment/carbon will not remove all the bugs that can make you sick. The Nature Pure is certified to remove bacteria and viruses. I have used their products for twenty years and they are as good a filter as you can own for your RV and backcountry travel. The water also taste good after filtering. If you have camp much, you have undoubtedly run across questionable water in a few campgrounds. I have seen it the color of weak coffee, not to mention the smell. I like the extra security the Nature Pure has given me through the years. I have had a couple of water-borne illnesses in the past and I'm determined to avoid them as much as possible.Larry
Re: [Life With A Lazy Daze RV] Re: Water Filters Reply #14 – June 11, 2003, 05:21:49 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23258Larry, Thanks for your reply. I have also run across questionable water in the past (while camping - I'm a wannabe at this point) which is why I thought it made more sense to filter all of the water & not just the drinking water. I had the same idea as you that it made more sense to leave the chlorine in the water while it was in the tank, but a water filter dealer told me that most of the chlorine dissipates anyway and that it is more important to turn over the water in the tank frequently. I'm not sure if the dealer knew what he was talking about, but it made sense to me at the time. I noticed that Nature Pure makes a purifier called the Seagull IV X-6 purifier, which is designed to filter all of the incoming water and has a 6 gpm flow rate. Has anyone looked at this product?Thanks,Davelw5315us no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:"An activated carbon filter removes the chorine from the water, among other things. Removing the chorine, a disinfectant, allows more things to grow in the tank. Carbon filters are fine if you are hooked up to a water supply and not using the on-board water supply. ... If you have camp much, you have undoubtedly run across questionable water in a few campgrounds. I have had a couple of water-borne illnesses in the past and I'm determined to avoid them as much as possible.Larry ">lifewithalazydazerv-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Water Filters Reply #15 – June 11, 2003, 07:49:57 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23265"a water filter dealer told me that most of the chlorine dissipates anyway"=Doesn't make much sense when you think about it. It's in a sealed tank, so = where's it gonna "dissipate" to? Aside from that, even if we assume that it= does somehow magically vanish eventually, by the time it does, it will have= done its job and killed most of the nasties in the tank and plumbing. I've read a lot about RV water treatment (see in particular phred Tinseth's= "Poop Sheet" on water) and I've found that if you eliminate the filter sale= smen, all reputable authorities agree that you *do* want that chlorine in there. = Let your Pür or Nature Pure filter take it out at the tap if you don't care for= the taste. (But do put a sediment filter on the water intake.)Andy Baird :-)
Re: [Life With A Lazy Daze RV] Water Filters (and other stuff) - LO Reply #16 – June 11, 2003, 10:54:33 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23272Is it possible to install filters that will filter all of the water before it comes into the LD? ....- Dave Dave, Andy has already mentioned that a good place to get information on this is from Phred Tinseth's web page at: http://www.phrannie.org/water.htmlthe rest of his "poop sheets" are indexed at: http://www.phrannie.org/phredex.htmlMr. Tinseth has compiled some great information. They are great reading for folks who might need a little practical advice in an easily readable format. Here is a list of the other items he's written about (which he refers to as his "poop sheets"). This list is a direct copy of his index. He is a retired Army officer, and his "gruff" no BS writing will make you laugh at times. His documentation of various issues is a great way for someone to get to know about the project that he or she is about to jump into.Hope this helps!Hugh & Yuli1. The Source and Resources List = 130 KB, 18 printed pages (05/2003). Covers over 90% of the information and product source questions I get. The List has capsule descriptions of key topics that are expanded on if needed in "poopsheets" of their own. Don't settle for RV store crap unless it really is good stuff.2. Inverters = 65 KB, 11 printed pages (4/2002). How to interpret manufacturer hype, size an inverter and get what your really need. There's no need to buy more than you need and it's foolish to buy less and have to do it all over again.3. Macerators and Other Sewer Stuff = 69 KB, 14 printed pages (8/2002). Things about macerators and sewage problems in general that nobody tells you.4. Buying an RV = 40 KB, 7 printed pages (4/2002). With this poop sheet and RV Consumer Group the only person who can screw you, is you.5. Batteries and Other Electrical Stuff = 106 KB, 21 printed pages (10/2002). You will control your own power company with this info and the books "Managing 12 Volts" and "RV Electrical Systems" along with other references listed. Covers 12VDC and some on 120VAC and generators not found elsewhere.6. Water Treatment = 37 KB, 7 printed pages (11/2002). You may need a lot or just a little water treatment. Don't get ripped off in buying equipment and don't do anything stupid.7. Electric Surge and High & Low Voltage = 28 KB, 8 printed pages (6/2002). Surges can wipe you out, but more often the real culprit is you or your fellow RVer.8. Is Solar Electricity For You ? = 22 KB, 4 printed pages (4/2002). Basics for people who know nothing and those who don't know they know nothing.9. Composting Toilets = 21 KB, 5 printed pages (4/2002). These are not generally recommended for RVers but can work if you're willing to do what's necessary -- they require elaborate care and "feeding" (pun intended).10. Storing an RV = 16 KB, 3 printed pages (4/2002). There's no point in you doing the same dumb stuff most people do.11. Handling Moisture in RVs = 62 KB, 12 printed pages (4/2002). Rubber Roofs, venting and lots more than just fixing leaks.12. Getting along -- Mexico and Elsewhere = 25 KB, 5 printed pages (4/2002). Not the usual touristy crappola but things RV magazines don't tell you.13. Communications = 41 KB, 7 printed pages (4/2002). Cell phones, the internet, satellite TV -- new things happening all the time.14. Boondocking = 45 KB, 8 printed pages (4/2002). Not the usual RV magazine oatmeal, but a buncha' important stuff.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Water Filters Reply #17 – June 12, 2003, 09:56:04 am Yahoo Message Number: 23279"a water filter dealer told me that most of the chlorine dissipates anyway""Doesn't make much sense when you think about it. It's in a sealed tank, so where's it gonna "dissipate" to?"To the outside air! The fresh water tank isn't a sealed tank! It is vented to the outside air so the chlorine gas does escape and in a matter of only a couple days it can all dissipate. I'm not saying it does It will have killed most of the bacteria in the tank and plumbing prior to dissipating however since it is open to the air airborne spores can re-enter the system and grow. That's why you sanitize the tank before filling it when it hasn't been used for a long period.I agree that you would normally want chlorine in the tank for its beneficial reasons. Many people and campgrounds though have wells without a chlorinating machine attached to the system. Often when you refill your tank at campgrounds they have non-chlorinated well water so many times when camping you don't have any chlorine in the tank or plumbing. Using a point of use water filter that removes any harmful bacteria, viruses, and other impurities is the only way to ensure you don't ingest any of them!There has been a lot of recent research showing that while chlorine is good for its disinfecting properties it is BAD for people not only to consume in the water they drink but also to bathe or shower with treated water. If you search the Internet you'll find lots of documentation on this subject! Most people agree that the benefits outweigh the risks but also agree you should remove it before ingesting it and many even recommend removing it before bathing in it! It reduces the absorption and increases the excretion of both calcium and phosphorus even from merely bathing in it. There are many health risks from chlorine including many cancers, birth defects, heart disease, high blood pressure, diabetes, kidney stones, and a lot more.Mike R.
Re: [Life With A Lazy Daze RV] Water Filters (and other stuff) - LO Reply #18 – June 12, 2003, 12:00:55 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23286Hugh & Yuli, I somehow missed Andy's comments earlier. I read your email and looked at this site when I arrived at work this morning at 8:30. It's now 12:00 and I've been so busy reading Phred's marvelous missives that I haven't done a bit of work yet. What a great site! Thank you for sending the link.DaveHugh and Yuli lazydaze@...> wrote: Andy has already mentioned that a good place to get information on this is from Phred Tinseth's web page at: http://www.phrannie.org/water.htmlthe rest of his "poop sheets" are indexed at: http://www.phrannie.org/phredex.html Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Water Filters Reply #19 – June 12, 2003, 12:41:41 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23289"I had the same idea as you that it made more sense to leave the chlorine in the water while it was in the tank, but a water filter dealer told me that most of the chlorine dissipates anyway and that it is more important to turn over the water in the tank frequently."Dave, It is a good idea to keep the chlorine in the water going into your fresh water tank when the water has it to begin with but changing the water in the tank is also a good idea. "I noticed that Nature Pure makes a purifier called the Seagull IV X- 6 purifier, which is designed to filter all of the incoming water and has a 6 gpm flow rate. Has anyone looked at this product?" General Ecology makes drinking water purification filters, not "whole house" filters. The Seagull IV X-6 designed more for restaurants, airlines, and other commercial high use needs. It can be adapted as a "whole house" type filter but that isn't what it was designed for. The problem would be that filter cartridges should be changed at least annually. The cost of the one for the Seagull IV X-6 is much more expensive and most RVers except full timers won't use 6000 gls of water in a year. You'd also be hard pressed to find a faucet in your home or a campground capable of handling 6gpm. The Seagull IV X- 1 (1000gls, 1gpm flow rate) is more than most RVers would need but is a good unit for in your home or for full timers. If you use it for filtering all incoming water and not the water going into the fresh water tank you still need a filter for drinking water or the water coming from the tank that will supply the internal system when you are using the tank rather than a city water hook-up. It can be done but why? Using an external filter for all incoming water is a good idea but do you need all the water to be drinking quality? Unless you are immune deficient or have other health related problems that some water borne bacteria would compromise your health further it's overkill. The important thing to avoid most health problems is drinking/cooking water and most people agree that a good point of use filter that removes bacterial and other contaminates is the best way to go. You can use a standard charcoal filter or sediment filter or both for all incoming water except what goes into the fresh water tank where you do want at least a sediment filter to remove rust, sand, and other things that do harm to the plumbing.Mike R.
Re: Water Filters Reply #20 – June 12, 2003, 03:30:18 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23300"The fresh water tank isn't a sealed tank! It is vented to the outside air so the chlorine gas does escape and in a matter of only a couple days it can all dissipate." Quite right, Mike--somehow the venting slipped my mind. Thanks for catching that!Andy Baird :-)
Re: [Life With A Lazy Daze RV] Re: Water Filters Reply #21 – June 13, 2003, 01:14:01 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23354Thanks to everyone who answered my questions about water filters. If I understand correctly, most people use a sediment filter on their incoming water and then just have a point-of-use filter (carbon or ceramic) to filter their drinking water only. I understand the point about leaving the chlorine in the water while it's in the holding tank, but why not filter all of the water again when it comes out of the holding tank? If there is a possibility that the water is still contaminated, then I don't think that I would want to shower in it or wash dishes in it either. Is the water line going out of the tank inaccessible in the LD? By the way in Phred Tinseth's Poop sheets, he recommends using a ClearWater Ozone Purifier sold at www.realgoods.com. I looked at that website and couldn't find this or any ozone purifiers. I also couldn't find this brand on the Internet. Is anyone familiar with this product or other ozone purifiers?Thanks,Dave Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [Life With A Lazy Daze RV] Re: Water Filters Reply #22 – June 13, 2003, 01:25:56 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23355Dave, Try this link http://www.cwtozone.com/ or www dot cwtozone dot comClearWater Tech contact info is:ClearWater Tech, LLC. 850-E Capitolio Way San Luis Obispo, California 93401 Phone: (805) 549-9724, (800) 262-0203 Fax: (805) 549-0306 E-mail: Have never used them, their products, or any ozone generator. What search engine do you use? I found ClearWater Tech's web site in about 10 seconds.CharlesAt 10:13 AM 6/13/2003 -0700, you wrote: QuoteThanks to everyone who answered my questions about water filters. If I understand correctly, most people use a sediment filter on their incoming water and then just have a point-of-use filter (carbon or ceramic) to filter their drinking water only. I understand the point about leaving the chlorine in the water while it's in the holding tank, but why not filter all of the water again when it comes out of the holding tank? If there is a possibility that the water is still contaminated, then I don't think that I would want to shower in it or wash dishes in it either. Is the water line going out of the tank inaccessible in the LD?By the way in Phred Tinseth's Poop sheets, he recommends using a ClearWater Ozone Purifier sold at www.realgoods.com. I looked at that website and couldn't find this or any ozone purifiers. I also couldn't find this brand on the Internet. Is anyone familiar with this product or other ozone purifiers?Thanks,Dave [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [Life With A Lazy Daze RV] Re: Water Filters Reply #23 – June 13, 2003, 02:27:44 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23359Charles, Thanks for the link. I had run across that site but it seemed to be primarily for pools & large-scale systems, so I wasn't sure it was the same one.Dave What search engine do you use? I found ClearWater Tech's web site in about 10 seconds.Charles Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [Life With A Lazy Daze RV] Re: Water Filters Reply #24 – June 13, 2003, 02:41:40 pm Yahoo Message Number: 23360Dave, You are welcome. I looked at their product listing and it does look like most of their offerings are for large-scale systems. However, look at the "Mini" group, specifically the CD10 model. It is 19" x 9" x 5" and 10 lbs. Might be of use in a LD. Of course, they all use at least 120VAC. As Dave previously asked, I'd like to know if anybody is using ozone for water purification.Charles
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