Want to buy a used LD April 02, 2009, 04:26:31 pm Yahoo Message Number: 101080---Hi all,My wife and I are getting close to purchasing a used LD. Either 23 or a 26 ft. We do like the 26 MB. Are there any particular years that are "better" or any "avoid" years?thanks, Ted aka: SHRED
Re: Want to buy a used LD Reply #1 – April 02, 2009, 06:53:11 pm Yahoo Message Number: 101094"My wife and I are getting close to purchasing a used LD. Either 23 or a 26 ft. Are there any particular years that are 'better' or any 'avoid' years?" Ted, if you go to our website's Files area (using the text link on the left side of every page) and open the "Lazy Daze Information" folder, you'll find a document called "LD models over the years" that explains what changes were made to each model from year to year. In general, Lazy Dazes built on Ford chassis are more desirable than Chevys (with the exception of the new 32' Chevy Kodiak Lazy Daze, of course--but you won't find any of those used for a few years); coaches built on Ford E450 chassis have a lot more cargo capacity than the older E350s; and it's worth noting that 2003 was the first year for both Thermopane-style insulated windows and the much quieter Onan MicroQuiet generator. While you're in the Files area, take a look in the Frequently Asked Questions folder, where there's lots of good info... and in particular, see "How do I shop for a used LD?" for many helpful hints and tips. Good hunting!Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Onan MicroQuiet generator Reply #2 – April 02, 2009, 09:39:00 pm Yahoo Message Number: 101104Quotethe much quieter Onan MicroQuiet generator. It appears that Onan has dropped the not so quiet MicroQuiet. The replacement appears to be RV QG 4000. The sound level of the new model is 66db which is close to a Honda and much less than MicroQuiet which I THINK came in at 80db.We heard one of the new ones and there was not much to hear.Maybe one of the 2009 owners will ring in with what model Onan they have.Don & Dorothy An MB named Koko & a Jeep named Pelli Our travel blog: http://travelingdorothy.blogspot.com/
Re: Onan MicroQuiet generator Reply #3 – April 02, 2009, 10:04:13 pm Yahoo Message Number: 101105Don,I think the generator were simply re-named. From the Cummins Onan Generator Handbook:"For the 2008 model year, Cummins Onan RV generator models will be receiving new model names, to more closely align them with the Cummins model descriptor standard. Two new model identifiers ' Quiet Gas(QG) and Quiet Diesel(QD) will be introduced. Each of these will identify which type of fuel the generator runs on and will be followed by the unit's kilowatt rating. For example, the MicroQuiet 4000 gasoline model will now be called the QG4000, the Quiet Diesel 8000 will now be called the QD8000 and so on. "Alex Rutchka '05 MB
Re: Want to buy a used LD Reply #4 – April 02, 2009, 10:21:12 pm Yahoo Message Number: 101106Pre-2004 Ford V10's have only 4 threads to hold the steel spark plugs
Re: Onan MicroQuiet generator Reply #5 – April 02, 2009, 10:34:49 pm Yahoo Message Number: 101107Quote the much quieter Onan MicroQuiet generator. It appears that Onan has dropped the not so quiet MicroQuiet.... The The sound level of the new model is 66db which is close to a Honda and much less than MicroQuiet which I THINK came in at 80db. A quick web search indicates that the MicroQuiet generator's spec is also 66 dB. When I first read that spec years ago, I was not too impressed. However, when I recently helped a friend troubleshoot a MicroQuiet starting problem I was utterly shocked at how quiet it was. We were at a quiet site and yet we had to listen carefully to tell that the generator had started and was running. The coach was closed up which helped but it was much much quieter than my Emerald generator. My Emerald generator also vibrates the coach which the MicroQuiet does not.Linley
Re: Want to buy a used LD Reply #6 – April 02, 2009, 11:21:58 pm Yahoo Message Number: 101108Thanks for the tip, Terry! Since I own a 2003 LD, I've filed that company's website away for future reference... just in case. For those who couldn't get the URL in Terry's message to work, the correct address is http://www.blownoutsparkplug.com/(To avoid typos, I always copy and paste a URL directly from a browser. :-)Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Want to buy a used LD Reply #7 – April 03, 2009, 10:43:47 am Yahoo Message Number: 101112"Terry Tanner" wrote: Pre-2004 Ford V10's have only 4 threads to hold the steel spark plugs in the aluminum head. --- Terry, the my motorhome chassis/engine was manufactured in May, 2003, and, according to the Ford tech who checked the code numbers on the side of the head, the plugs are 8-thread. And, I saw the plugs that were removed from Lorna Dunham's early 2003 model -- I *think* that the chassis/engine manufacturing date was December 2002 -- when she had them replaced at Blown Out Sparkplug, and it appeared that those plugs were 8-thread, too. Frankly, I don't know what to think about the 4-thread vs. 8-thread sparkplug problem; I know that several people have had "blowouts", but it seems to me that there is still some uncertainty about just *which* model years -- and which manufacturing "runs", i.e., early/middle/late, within those years --are affected. Joan
Re: Want to buy a used LD - Spark Plug Blowout Reply #8 – April 03, 2009, 11:35:32 am Yahoo Message Number: 101115Hi Joan,It is the number of threads
Re: Onan MicroQuiet generator Reply #9 – April 03, 2009, 12:46:36 pm Yahoo Message Number: 101120On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 02:31:51 -0000, "Linley" wrote these inspiring words:QuoteA quick web search indicates that the MicroQuiet generator's spec is also 66 dB I should never trust my memory. 80db is what our old Generac is rated. [emergency power generator on our stick home] I had the Owners manual out yesterday to find out the part number for the air filter and happened to read the noise specs. Regrets for the bad info. The Emerald must be really noisy as we consider the MicroQuiet a PIA to listen to. Outside, curbside is not too bad. We heard some generator on a SOB Class C in Florida last month and it was almost not noticeable in the next camp site.Cheers, Don
Re: Want to buy a used LD - Spark Plug Blowout Reply #10 – April 03, 2009, 01:15:07 pm Yahoo Message Number: 101121"Terry Tanner" wrote: It is the number of threads in the aluminum head, not the number of threads on the spark plug. --- I thought of the probability that you meant "head threads", not "plug threads" after I posted; thanks for the clarification! And, I plan to discuss this point with the Ford guy who "read the head". ;-)Joan
Re: Onan MicroQuiet generator Reply #11 – April 03, 2009, 03:02:13 pm Yahoo Message Number: 101128"we consider the MicroQuiet a PIA to listen to. Outside, curbside is not too bad. We heard some generator on a SOB Class C in Florida last month and it was almost not noticeable in the next camp site." The first question that comes to mind is: did you try running your own MicroQuiet and walking over to the next campsite to assess its loudness there? My experience has been that the MicroQuiet's noise level rapidly drops as you walk away from the coach... so it's quite possible that the other coach's generator that you thought was so quiet was just a MicroQuiet heard from a distance. :-) Inside, it's another story. In my midbath, if I sit in the rear lounge area and close the door, I can easily forget that the generator is running after awhile. But if I sit at the dinette, which is right above the generator, I can definitely hear it and feel it, and it's annoying. And I've noticed that people who own "open floorplan" models such as the rear bath seem to be more bothered by generator noise... presumably because they can't get away from it the way midbath and rear kitchen owners can.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Want to buy a used LD - Spark Plug Blowout Reply #12 – April 04, 2009, 11:38:23 pm Yahoo Message Number: 101150My E-450 chassis was manufactured
Re: Want to buy a used LD - Spark Plug Blowout Reply #13 – April 06, 2009, 03:52:45 pm Yahoo Message Number: 101181Terry Its going to take the same number of turns to remove the plug whether the head has 2,4,6, or 8 threads. The extra threads on the plug will be through the head. The only way to tell will be to look at the head after the plugs are out.
Re: Want to buy a used LD - Spark Plug Blowout Reply #14 – April 06, 2009, 04:33:01 pm Yahoo Message Number: 101183I was about to say the same thing Garry said. You can't tell by how many turns it takes to remove the plug. I also second the recommendation of looking at the option of having the heads repaired and not replaced. The folks over at the Ford Truck Enthusiast site are very much in favor of it too. If you are very mechanically inclined, it's a procedure you can do yourself and save tons of money. Aside from the site listed earlier, there are a number of companies who sell repair kits.-Victor
Re: Want to buy a used LD - Spark Plug Blowout Reply #15 – April 06, 2009, 05:45:20 pm Yahoo Message Number: 101185"Its going to take the same number of turns to remove the plug whether the head has 2,4,6, or 8 threads. The extra threads on the plug will be through the head. The only way to tell will be to look at the head after the plugs are out. In fact that is one of the larger problems with the 4 thread heads, the extra threads sticking down get carbon build up causing damage when the plugs are removed."GaryThat's a good point. It might be better, if one is concerned about the plugs loosening, to re-torgue them to Factory specs instead of removing them, assuming they are not due for replacement.I question just how prevalent the blown spark plug problem is. I have found little or no real data on this. Sure the web forums have numerous anecdotal accounts but considering how many of these engines have been made, just how big a problems it? A year or so ago, I checked with a couple of friends that were managers in fleet maintenance for the City of LA and they had not found this to be a common problem. Actually, they found the V-10 to be a very dependable engine. Once again, more anecdotal evidence but consider the source. Keep in mind that businesses, such as `Blownoutsparkplug' have a financial incentive to increase the concern about this potential problem, especially when they come to speak to groups like the LD Caravan Club. How did they determine to use 28 ft/lbs of torque when Ford`s engineers recommend 14 ft/lbs? I meet the owner, at his home shop, and he is not a mechanical or automotive engineer. He is a very talented home mechanic who works, in his spare time, out of his back yard workshop while his profession is in IT.Just looking for the facts. Larry
Re: Want to buy a used LD - Spark Plug Blowout Reply #16 – April 06, 2009, 08:08:44 pm Yahoo Message Number: 101186"I question just how prevalent the blown spark plug problem is... A year or so ago, I checked with a couple of friends that were managers in fleet maintenance for the city of LA and they had not found this to be a common problem."Actually, the owner of blownoutsparkplug.com agrees with you: "The 4-5 thread plug design has been around for many years with only a small percentage of them ever fail." Enough to keep him in business, though, I guess. He says he's done 450 repairs to date, with no failures. "I meet the owner, at his home shop, and he is not a mechanical or automotive engineer. He is a very talented home mechanic who works, in his spare time, out of his back yard workshop while his profession is in IT." His FAQ says "I work for a Ford dealership in San Diego County, California as a master technician." Did he change jobs, or are we talking about two different people? ;-)Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Want to buy a used LD - Spark Plug Blowout Reply #17 – April 06, 2009, 09:00:48 pm Yahoo Message Number: 101188--- Andy, I believe they are brothers. One works out of San Diego, the other out of Santa Ynez. John
Re: Want to buy a used LD - Spark Plug Blowout Reply #18 – April 06, 2009, 09:09:10 pm Yahoo Message Number: 101189His FAQ says "I work for a Ford dealership in San Diego County, California as a master technician." Did he change jobs, or are we talking about two different people? ;-)Andy He may have a partner. I meet him and watched while he changed a set of plugs at his home in Santa Ynez, Ca. He acted as if it was his business and told me that he made the inserts and the tooling in his home shop. All the information I reported about him came straight from his mouth.Larry
Re: Want to buy a used LD - Spark Plug Blowout Reply #19 – April 06, 2009, 09:13:08 pm Yahoo Message Number: 101190"I believe they are brothers. One works out of San Diego, the other out of Santa Ynez." Well that clears up that mystery. John's posting had not come up yet when I read Andy's response.Larry
Re: Want to buy a used LD - Spark Plug Blowout Reply #20 – April 06, 2009, 10:37:58 pm Yahoo Message Number: 101191"I believe they are brothers. One works out of San Diego, the other out of Santa Ynez."Ah! That 'splains it--thanks, John. And getting back to what Larry was saying, it does appear that the "blown plug" problem only affects a small percentage of engines. That's small consolation for those who've been hit by it, of course... but it probably does explain why Ford has not been forced to recall those engines. I quoted the BlownOutSparkPlugs website as saying that they'd replaced 450 to date, which sound like a lot... but remember that these engines (including the V8 version) were used in everything from vans to Mustangs for a number of years... so there must be a LOT of them out there. If you build 45,000 of anything and you have a one percent failure rate, that's 450 failures right there. I'm not trying to say those are real-world numbers, of course, but you get the idea: percentagewise, the failure rate is probably very small, but the huge number of engines in use makes it look large.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Want to buy a used LD - Spark Plug Blowout Reply #21 – April 06, 2009, 11:57:50 pm Yahoo Message Number: 101193QuoteI question just how prevalent the blown spark plug problem is.Just looking for the facts. Hi Larry, I did find a survey on one of the Ford truck sites last year. I discuss that in message 88738. I think you're right, the problem is quite limited, though more pronounced with pre-2000 engines. But here is how I look at this. Spark plug changes and torque checks, etc. would be classified as preventive maintenance. The truth is that you could not change your engine oil or filter or air filter or many other things for tens of thousands of miles and likely have no immediate problem. But once in awhile the failure to do regular or timely preventive maintenance causes a serious problem. So most here are pretty fastidious about things like oil changes.Well, Ford specifies plug changes at 100K in my owner's manual, but I also found many references on-line saying Ford now says retorque at 30K, at least to its techs. I never could find an actual document from Ford though, such as a TSB.In any event, the question to me is how frequently to perform the preventive maintenance specified by Ford, at 100K or earlier? I paid $400 to have my plugs changed. That's probably high but I saw lots of references to $300+. Of course you could do it yourself for about $50 and a few hours of grief.I decided to do it at half the interval specified in the owner's manual, 50K instead of 100K. Sort of like doing more frequent oil changes. When the Blownoutsparkplug guy did mine several of the plugs were, in fact, loose. Could I have waited until 100K? Probably. But by doing it early I learned I had the new heads and was secure in having attended to one of the few known problems with these engines. I do a lot of motorcycle touring. Tires wear out in less than 10,000 miles and cost about $250 a pair. I used to try to get an extra trip or two out of a set of tires, say an extra 1,000 miles. It felt like I was saving $250 because I didn't have to write a check for that amount. But in fact I was saving just $25. I finally concluded the money I was saving wasn't worth the risk. I now change tires early.That's how I feel about the plugs. I could have waited to 100K and probably not had a problem. But there are so few problems with this engine, why not deal with one of the few known problems early and effectively and avoid a problem out on the road?As to Ford engineers vs. the guys at Blownoutsparkplug, in this case it is the Ford engineers that brought us this problem, as indicated by their switch to different plugs and heads. To me that amounts to Ford's acknowledgment of this problem. And a bit more torque makes sense to me and the blown out plug guys have had no problems from that. I think on this particular issue they may have a leg up on Ford. And if you watched them change your plugs, like I did, you'd know they do good work.I'm off for six months in Alaska next week. I have new tires on both my motorhome and my Jeep, I've repaired everything that needed repairing and I'm all up-to-date on services. And I'm glad I did my plugs early so I don't have to worry about them. Something may happen but it won't be for lack of trying to prevent it.Terry2003 26.5'RB Gardnerville, NV
Re: Want to buy a used LD - Spark Plug Blowout Reply #22 – April 07, 2009, 03:07:34 am Yahoo Message Number: 101195"Well, Ford specifies plug changes at 100K in my owner's manual, but I also found many references on-line saying Ford now says retorque at 30K, at least to its techs. I never could find an actual document from Ford though, such as a TSB.TerryThis may be a tempest in a teacup, who knows? I had not seen any reputable reference about a 30,000-mile re-torque but it sounds like a good idea. Our LD has 43,000 miles on it, a little too early to replace the plugs but not too early to check the torque. I'm leery of removing plugs in any aluminum head more often than necessary. Since I do not plan on changing the plugs for another 30-40K, I will just check the torque and not risk ripping any threads out due to corrosion. If they are going to loosen, they will have done so by now.Have a great time on your trip. Hope to see you at Live Oak next fall.Larry
Re: Want to buy a used LD - Spark Plug Blowout Reply #23 – April 08, 2009, 08:56:04 am Yahoo Message Number: 101218Well this thread has about ran its course again but one thing I haven't seen here that I saw somewhere is a bit of advise when removing the plugs.As I said earlier at least some of the problem is caused when the plugs are changed because the threads extend below the head. So the advice was to barely loosen the plug then spray the hole area with some solevent to let it seep down the threads and loosen the carbon deposits on the threads. From what I have read many of the failures have happened after the first plug change. In face early on they were trying to blame over tightening of the plugs as the cause of the blowouts. I have even heard the term HAM-Fisted mechanics used. Now as to the how helpful trying to loosen the carbon is I really can't say. And I am not sure which spray I would use if I were to try it. I doubt that I would let a dealer touch it now that it is out of warranty.I have a 1998 V8 in a van that I haven't done anything with yet at 57,00 or so. I hate to just re-torque in Alum heads...Garry
Re: Want to buy a used LD - Spark Plug Blowout Reply #24 – April 08, 2009, 11:34:51 am Yahoo Message Number: 101220"I am not sure which spray I would use if I were to try it. I doubt that I would let a dealer touch it now that it is out of warranty."Garry I would first blow the area out with compressed air to get rid of any debris. Then I would spray in some penetrating oil, let it sit a while then crack the plug a tiny bit and add some more oil. Let the oil soften up any carbon on the plug's threads. Take it slow and easy. Try not to use too much force.My favorite penetrating oil is Kroil. It is hard to find locally. http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=2190&itemType=PRODUCT> A commonly available penetrating oil that works OK is PB Blaster http://www.mfgsupply.com/m/c/32-8824.html> After the plugs are out, look at each one's thread to see if any aluminum is present. That would indicate thread damage. A borescope would be very useful in examining the head's threads. They are getting cheaper. http://tinyurl.com/bk3g3k> If bad threads are found, here is a repair kit I found last year and was Discussed in message # 92640. Yes, we are repeating ourselves...again. http://tinyurl.com/48j5em> The link has a U-Tube video showing how the repair is done.Larry
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