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Topic: Complete Brake Failure - Just After Descending From 10,000 To 6,000 Feet (Read 810 times) previous topic - next topic
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Complete Brake Failure - Just After Descending From 10,000 To 6,000 Feet
I spent the night in the parking lot of Les Schwab in Cedar City, now waiting for a $1,200 brake repair (see picture).

I came into Cedar City yesterday from Navajo Lake on UT-14 to do some shopping, made it down the hill with no problems - and had a 95% brake failure when I pulled into the parking lot at Walmart. There was a huge brake fluid leak at the driver's side rear wheels. Luckily Les Schwab is right across the street from Walmart and I was able to make it there safely. They looked at it right away. The parts should be here this morning, and then they will hopefully get me going again soon.

Lucky for me, I made it about 4,000 feet down (over 10 miles) with the brakes still working! If this would have happened 15 miles earlier I would probably not be able to write this little story.

This is the first major failure and repair in the seventh year I own the RV (which has about 90k miles on its wheels now). I have a couple of more construction sites, but nothing of that graveness.

PS: It's 8:09 am here, and they are starting to work on the rig now.
2001 26.5 Mid-Bath
Re: Complete Brake Failure - Just After Descending From 10,000 To 6,000 Feet
Reply #1 –
That the brakes failed so completely at that point, and you had no prior indication of a problem almost certainly means you were relying far too much on controlling descent with the brakes instead of the transmission. Some drops are so steep that even in first gear the brakes are needed, but at such slow speeds overheating would be rare. If a descent cannot be controlled just by downshifting, then maintain a slower speed and use the brakes sparingly. Good luck with the repair!

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Complete Brake Failure - Just After Descending From 10,000 To 6,000 Feet
Reply #2 –
Apparently the pads were gone (my mistake that I didn’t had that checked sooner), the caliper hit the rotor, something broke and damaged the brake line and other parts around there. By now I hope it remains at $1,200. The rear pads had been replaced last at around 35k; the front pads at 55k. I asked now them to check the front pads as well; the cost for that would be additional.

Under the line: my mistake and I have to pay for it. I guess I’m  lucky that I’m not in a hospital or somewhere even less hospitable.

When coming down from Cedar Breaks National Monument I was very slow and had to brake only occasionally. But I was in 3rd gear, and I guess the 2nd gear would have been better.
2001 26.5 Mid-Bath
Re: Complete Brake Failure - Just After Descending From 10,000 To 6,000 Feet
Reply #3 –
"But I was in 3rd gear, and I guess the 2nd gear would have been better."

I always use the gears in preference to the brakes! Guess that philosophy came from the training I got from my 'over-the-road' truck driving father.   :o
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: Complete Brake Failure - Just After Descending From 10,000 To 6,000 Feet
Reply #4 –
Klaus, just add that to your "The next time I do that, it will be a mistake " list.
Glad you & rig are safe.
Joel & Terry Wiley
dog Zeke
2013  31 IB   Orwan   / 2011 CRV Tow'd LWEROVE
Re: Complete Brake Failure - Just After Descending From 10,000 To 6,000 Feet
Reply #5 –
I’ve done quite a few double digit inclines in the last two years and 35k miles.    Brakes are there just to adjust speed until the lower gear can maintain a proper speed.

Dave

2017 TK
Re: Complete Brake Failure - Just After Descending From 10,000 To 6,000 Feet
Reply #6 –
 :o Glad to hear you made it down safely, Klaus!
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: Complete Brake Failure - Just After Descending From 10,000 To 6,000 Feet
Reply #7 –
On the road again! It took 4 hours with two people working on it. I'm very grateful that nothing happened to me and that it got fixed so quickly.

Now on the UT-14 to Navajo Lake and very soon without cell phone and Internet connection.

Thanks for all your replies.
2001 26.5 Mid-Bath
Re: Complete Brake Failure - Just After Descending From 10,000 To 6,000 Feet
Reply #8 –
Anyone with a vintage LD, 2001 counts, should consider replacing all five of the flexible rubber brake lines. After 20+ years the rubber dries, gets stiff and can crack.
I replaced all five of the flexible brake lines last summer while changing the brakes, all needed replacement.

FYI, 2008 and newer LDs have larger brakes than the earlier E450s.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Complete Brake Failure - Just After Descending From 10,000 To 6,000 Feet
Reply #9 –
Quote from: Larry W  - 
Anyone with a vintage LD, 2001 counts, should consider replacing all five of the flexible rubber brake lines. After 20+ years the rubber dries, gets stiff and can crack.
I replaced all five of the flexible brake lines last summer while changing the brakes, all needed replacement.

FYI, 2008 and newer LDs have larger brakes than the earlier E450s.

Larry

When we bought our 1999 in 2019 we had brake work done to include the flexible lines.   About a year later we lost our brakes less than 10 minutes from home.  I made it home, filled the reservoir back up and noticed brake fluid leaking underneath. The metal brake line running from the front to the back of the RV had broken. I was able to replace it myself.
Steve and Jill, Steve posting
1999 26.5 Mid-Bath
Re: Complete Brake Failure - Just After Descending From 10,000 To 6,000 Feet
Reply #10 –
Quote from: Klaus  - 
On the road again! It took 4 hours with two people working on it. I'm very grateful that nothing happened to me and that it got fixed so quickly.

Now on the UT-14 to Navajo Lake and very soon without cell phone and Internet connection.

Thanks for all your replies.

Right outside of Duck Creek to the east is Uinta Flats, a decent place to boondock up there with good internet.
You don't want to be there over a holiday as it's very popular with the folks from Vegas looking to escape the heat.
Jota
96 23.5 FL
Re: Complete Brake Failure - Just After Descending From 10,000 To 6,000 Feet
Reply #11 –
Quote from: Klaus  - 
Apparently the pads were gone (my mistake that I didn’t had that checked sooner), the caliper hit the rotor, something broke and damaged the brake line and other parts around there. By now I hope it remains at $1,200. The rear pads had been replaced last at around 35k; the front pads at 55k. I asked now them to check the front pads as well; the cost for that would be additional.
Completely worn out pads means metal pad backing rubbing on the rotor, but I would not expect that to cause a catastrophic failure; however, a long downhill run with plenty of braking might cause the pads to disintegrate and break things. From AutoZone:

SIGNS YOUR BRAKE PADS ARE WORN
*Squealing when you stop. Many brake pads have squealer tabs that touch the rotor to make noise as a warning sign your pads are low.
*Grinding when you drive and brake. If the brake pads are worn out, the backing plate can contact the rotor and exhibit metal-on-metal grinding noises as well as a rough feeling in the brake pedal.
*Extended stopping distances. The friction material helps you slow down sooner, and worn-out brakes often aren’t as effective.
*Grooves in the rotor surface. You can often visualize the rotor between the wheel spokes, and deep grooves indicate your brakes are worn out.

For the complete article: https://www.autozone.com/diy/brakes/worn-out-brake-pads-symptoms

I take my vehicles to Les Schwab every 1-2 years. They inspect the brake system - pads, rotors, calipers and all - for free.
2005 Jayco 24SS
Re: Complete Brake Failure - Just After Descending From 10,000 To 6,000 Feet
Reply #12 –
I'm still around Cedar Breaks National Monument and will drive down to Cedar Breaks City today - for the first time with the new brakes. I would like to get advice how to do that best.

The signs on UT-14 say that some descends are 6% and some 8%. When I drove down there before I did so in 3rd gear, usually  with around 40 mph, sometimes less, sometimes a little more between the more steep parts of the road. The speed limit there is, as far as I remember, 50 mph. I had not to brake much; when I braked, I did not brake short times and not for hundreds of feet. The brakes did not make funny noises or faded. I think that last time I did this I was simply very lucky that the brakes worked as they should until I reached the Walmart parking lot, and only then the caliper on the driver side broke (that's what Les Schwab told me had happened).

Should I drive with 40 mph or a little less in 2nd gear (and probably have to brake almost never), and sometimes switch between 2nd and 3rd gear? I have to say that I am always hesitant when I slow down the cars behind for too much too long. When I drive up that road I pull over whenever I can, even for just one car. When I drive down there are almost no places where I could pull over for several miles.

Thanks for your replies!

Klaus


2001 26.5 Mid-Bath
Re: Complete Brake Failure - Just After Descending From 10,000 To 6,000 Feet
Reply #13 –
You are on your way to doing it right!

Ideally you never brake doing downhill, maybe on a curve as needed, downshift as low as you need to accomplish that.

Will you go slow?  Yep
Will cars back up behind you?  Yep
Should you care?  Nope

It’s a good habit to proactively pull over when it’s safe, even for just one car, I do it all the time.

Modern technology is grand, posting this just south of Twillingate NL, enjoying the view and breeze😇
Dave

2017 TK
Re: Complete Brake Failure - Just After Descending From 10,000 To 6,000 Feet
Reply #14 –

"Should I drive with 40 mph or a little less in 2nd gear (and probably have to brake almost never), and sometimes switch between 2nd and 3rd gear?"

This is a subject that must be learned from those who do it for a living! I recommend you go to a truck stop, engage a driver in conversation, even if you have to buy him a cup of jo, and have him tell you how he does it.  ;)

Those "Run-away" ramps on mountain highways are there for a reason!  :o
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: Complete Brake Failure - Just After Descending From 10,000 To 6,000 Feet
Reply #15 –
Quote
I would like to get advice how to do that best.

The old rule of thumb is to descend no faster than you ascended. I keep the transmission in Tow/Haul. I begin the descent slowly and settle on a target speed. I have found that the Ford's Tow/Haul does a pretty good job of maintaining speed so I don't have to hit the brakes a lot as the Tow/Haul allows the engine to do almost all of the braking. As the rig approaches my target speed, I stab the brakes hard to bring it down 10mph or so and keep doing that for the duration of the descent. If you do it like this your brakes will never overheat.

So the idea is to allow the engine to do the braking and any manual braking you do should be of short duration. Just have to get used to that V-10 screaming. I keep it under 5,000 revs.
jor
09 27' MB
10  Suby Forester
Re: Complete Brake Failure - Just After Descending From 10,000 To 6,000 Feet
Reply #16 –
Quote from: jor  - 
I keep the transmission in Tow/Haul. I begin the descent slowly and settle on a target speed. I have found that the Ford's Tow/Haul does a pretty good job of maintaining speed so I don't have to hit the brakes a lot as the Tow/Haul allows the engine to do almost all of the braking.
Yes, forget about that tip, I habitually turn on tow/haul as I approach any grade up or down.
Dave

2017 TK
Re: Complete Brake Failure - Just After Descending From 10,000 To 6,000 Feet
Reply #17 –
Many of us don't have a tow/haul mode.  2008 and newer I think.       With the older 4 speed, I lock out high gear and descend in 3rd gear. I switch to 2nd gear for really steep or hairpin turns. I pull over when possible if people are behind me. I am careful to pick suitable pull over spots that can support my weight, and provide a view of me for cars coming up behind me. A sharp transition between asphalt and dirt doesn't fit my criteria. This causes a lot of angst for clueless 'short light car' drivers behind me. RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: Complete Brake Failure - Just After Descending From 10,000 To 6,000 Feet
Reply #18 –
I overheated my brakes coming down UT 14.
It was a good thing I still had some barely left when I had to stop at a construction zone.
Smoke was pouring out of the front end and I could smell the brakes.
Luckily, I was near the bottom by that point and had enough brakes to get safely down.
I went to a shop and had them check everything and they couldn't find any problems.
So, the next time I came down, I dropped the transmission in to second and tried to stay off the brakes.
Works really well, so now I have made that my go to method of coming down steep roads.
Jota
96 23.5 FL
Re: Complete Brake Failure - Just After Descending From 10,000 To 6,000 Feet
Reply #19 –
All good advice! The important thing is to downshift at the top of the hill, and let the transmission do most of the work.

Awhile back I posted a page that summarizes the best tips for mountain driving. Couldn't hurt to review it before tackling the next peak. :-)
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Complete Brake Failure - Just After Descending From 10,000 To 6,000 Feet
Reply #20 –
Steepest grade encountered this summer, 17%, on the Gaspè Peninsula in Quebec.   Thankfully less than a mile.
Dave

2017 TK
Re: Complete Brake Failure - Just After Descending From 10,000 To 6,000 Feet
Reply #21 –
"If you do it like this your brakes will never overheat."

In trucker jargon it's called "Pumping the Brakes" or some may say "Feathering the Brakes" although many would argue that they are different techniques.  Depends a lot on the situation!   :o    ::)  How many Big Rigs have you ever seen with smoke coming off their wheels?

Hey, while we're on this topic, did you see where Teton Pass is open again after half the mountain gave way?
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: Complete Brake Failure - Just After Descending From 10,000 To 6,000 Feet
Reply #22 –
The steepest drive I’ve ever done in the LD is from the home we just moved from last year to the valley floor, a 1,400 elevation drop in 2.2 miles of curvy road. The tips given above are right on. Tow haul is a life saver, in my opinion.
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: Complete Brake Failure - Just After Descending From 10,000 To 6,000 Feet
Reply #23 –
Quote
Many of us don't have a tow/haul mode.  2008 and newer with the 5 speed tranny, I think. /quote]

Whoa. That is a different kettle of fish for sure. Much more skill involved and attention required.
jor
09 27' MB
10  Suby Forester