No Shore Power, Etc. March 18, 2024, 06:16:20 pm When I ran the generator recently in my 2017 MB, I tried to run an electric heater, but there was no power to the 120v outlet or any other outlets although the microwave and the ac worked. I checked the breakers and the GFI breaker was off. When I reset the breaker, the generator shut off. When I plugged the shore power in, none of the outlets worked and neither did the microwave or AC. When I used the test button on the GFI breaker, nothing happened. The breaker remained on. I checked most of the fuses, and they were fine, so I assumed that the GFI breaker had failed, so I replaced it, but it had no effect. I checked the main breaker with a meter, and with shore power connected, it showed nothing; when I checked the generator, the meter seemed to show a charge, but my multimeter only shows DC. I also checked the breaker on the generator, and it was still on. The previous owner had a Parallax ATS 301 Line/Generator transfer switch installed in place of the Parallax 7345 identified in the manual. One of the posts that I read on the Lazy Daze Owners Group said that a problem like this must be the relay in the transfer switch. Another said that the relay should be outside the box, but I don’t see one outside the box. I also don’t see anything like the one shown in Tedeboy’s post from 3 years ago.https://www.lazydazeowners.com/index.php?action=dlattach;sa=tmpattach;attach=post_tmp_5397_ca8f2b567f92a4f5a2f099f246ec5f63;topic=0 I’m assuming now that I need to replace the ATS 301 transfer switch unless the relay inside the box can be replaced. I’m hoping that this would solve the problem with the shore power and the generator shutting off when the GFI breaker is switched on. I saw a YouTube video that showed how to do the wiring, and it seemed doable but a little tricky. This is the fifth Lazy Daze that I’ve owned, and I’ve never encountered a problem like this, so I thought I would check with the experts at the Lazy Daze Club since you have a wealth of information. https://www.lazydazeowners.com/index.php?https://www.lazydazeowners.com/index.php?action=dlattach;sa=tmpattach;attach=post_tmp_5397_8f6f4093e766a9c8bdb464da59ecfd11;topic=0action=dlattach;sa=tmpattach;attach=post_tmp_5397_2b720a0001e0346b12b43ba4e495f153;topic=0
Re: No Shore Power, Etc. Reply #1 – March 19, 2024, 04:15:51 pm Hi James; Well the picture of Ted; he is holding a circuit breaker. (a heat operated switch that opens when overloaded). It looks to me to be the generator's output circuit breaker that he is holding. Your comment : "...; when I checked the generator, the meter seemed to show a charge, but my multimeter only shows DC. I also checked the breaker on the generator, and it was still on." Was the generator running? The generator outputs 110V AC through that circuit breaker. The (multi)meter, set to measure DC volts, won't show AC volts. If the generator was operating (running) was the meter showing any AC volts? Originally; you said that the generator is running, and the Air/con and microwave worked, but the GFCI was already tripped off. The GFCI isn't involved with the A/C and MW. Together they take about 30 Amps, so there may not have been much reserve. If the heater was plugged in and turned on, when you reset the GFCI, that should have tripped the generator's 30A circuit breaker, like what Tedeboy was holding. The generator should have continued, engine running, but with no output. So presented with an extreme surge, I could believe that a contact inside the relay could have welded (literally spot welded in place) before the generator circuit breaker could shut off power. That contact could explain why, with shore power present, that you have no power in the coach now. (anywhere) With all of that wiring exposed in your picture, it would take just a few minutes to define exactly what the problem is. The white insulated neutral conductors should be connected, (but not grounded). The grounds (bare wires) are connected. The black wires; one comes from the output circuit breaker of the generator, the generator's power contribution. The other black insulated wire comes in from your shore power plug, the local power plant's contribution. The third black wire carries whichever of those two wires is selected, into the power distribution box's Main 30 Amp circuit breaker. Your third picture of the PC board and relay show four solid copper wires, two white and two black. Possibly the orange Romex cable is the incoming shore power and the feed to the power distribution box Main breaker. The stranded black and white wires could be input from the generator. The orange Romex pvc insulation denotes 10 ga. wiring. I'd have to be there to verify which wires went where, so I can't help trouble shoot that any further. If the relay contacts, or the PC board electronics are damaged, you may have to get a new PC board. That looks to be easily swapped out. RonB 1 Likes
Re: No Shore Power, Etc. Reply #2 – March 19, 2024, 08:13:59 pm Hi Ron,Thanks for the information. I wasn’t sure if the picture from Ted was a relay, but in the context of the post, I thought that’s what it might be. I read about the outside relay switch in a post from 22 years ago and thought that’s what it might be. Let me clarify what happened when I first ran the generator; after it started, I plugged in the “Big Heat,” but it never started; there was no current going to the outlet. I had used the heater before when I was running the generator for it’s bimonthly “exercise” because I had read that it wasn’t good to run the generator without some appliance using the electricity. Whenever I used the Big Heat, I always used it alone because I knew it drew a lot of power. When I checked the microwave while the generator was running, I ran it too alone and then the ac by itself. So there shouldn’t have been an extreme surge. Afterwards, I checked the circuit breakers and found that the GFCI breaker was off, and I realized there was no power to the outlets because the breaker was already off. Today, I brought the Big Heat into the house and plugged it in to a GFI outlet to see if it had a short, but it did trip off the breaker. It ran fine. When I reset the GFCI breaker and turned it on, the generator shut off. After it did, I plugged in the shore power and saw that the Microwave had no power nor did anything else. Because the generator shut off when I reset the GFCI, and I had no shore power with the GFCI on, I thought the breaker was the problem, but after I replaced the breaker, I still had the same problem. The old multimeter I have showed there was current from the generator going into the main breaker, but when I checked the shore power, it showed current going into the transfer switch but not the main breaker. I’m assuming it “showed” it because the needle jittered, and I realized that I need a better meter to be sure, so I ordered a Fluke digital multimeter. I only have a limited amount of experience trouble shooting electrical problems, so my diagnostic tools are limited. The previous owner had the ATS 301 installed at Lazy Daze because they didn’t like the sound of the fan running all the time with the other transfer switch, and it has always worked fine. I only opened the cover to see if there was a relay switch inside, but apparently it doesn’t. Thanks again for the information. Jim 1 Likes
Re: No Shore Power, Etc. Reply #3 – March 20, 2024, 03:25:53 am Hi James; In your third picture above, says it is the Parallax ATS 301. That white label stuck across the clear plastic box labeled "touch up" R that is the actual relay. The fans were in the Parallax 75 amp version converter. That is the 120vAC converter to 12.9 V DC power supply. The smaller rated 65 amp converters had fans but would switch off and on only when needed. Any more I can't hear the fans in my Progressive Dynamics. But the converter fans aren't related to the buss transfer switch. Also the relay should be located inside a box, even in the olden days. So it still sounds like a problem with the transfer relay. Check all of the circuit breakers to assure none of them are tripped. Recently a member of the Caravan Club had an electrical failure where the Marinco ( external shore power plug in socket) plug wire came in to the rig and was connected to the Romex wire going to the power distribution box. The wire nut joint had not been executed properly and the stranded wire from the socket didn't contact the solid wire of the Romex very well. Damage was contained inside the junction box. He has a 2011 rig. (somewhere around that time). You might want to check that the power feed to the rig gets all the way to the relay, before you start replacing parts. RonB 1 Likes
Re: No Shore Power, Etc. Reply #4 – March 20, 2024, 10:36:57 am It does sound like the transfer switch is bad but you may have other problems.That the A/C and microwave worked when the 120-VAC outlets didn't could be caused by a badly pitted busbar or a breaker with pitted contacts.Have you checked the circuit breaker located in the generator cabinet?It is challenging to troubleshoot electrical problems remotely, things that might be readily apparent to a trained eye are not detected, even with photos.Larry 1 Likes
Re: No Shore Power, Etc. Reply #5 – March 21, 2024, 07:32:58 pm Hi Ron & LarryI checked all the circuit breakers and none of them are tripped, including the one on the generator. I looked under the kitchen sink and the romex from the transfer switch goes to the wall on the driver side and then into the bathroom inside the wall, so it isn’t accessible, and there is no room for a junction box, so I assume that it goes directly into the Marinco Plug. I used my new multimeter, and it confirmed what I thought. When the shorepower is connected, 120V goes into the transfer switch, but there is no power at the main breaker. When I ran the generator, the main breaker showed 120V, and I noticed that the power to the microwave went on immediately with no lag time as it normally would have. In order to run the generator, I had to shut off the GFCI breaker. One of the things that has puzzled me is that the GFCI breaker now functions like a kill switch for the generator. If the GFCI is on, the generator won’t start; however, the starter motor works normally. If the GFCI is off, the generator runs. I assume that this confirms what you thought that the transfer relay is malfunctioning. I looked up the relay (Daltrol Controller 275P 202C 277VAC) on-line and couldn’t find one. Even if I could, I’m not sure it’s worth it to replace it. I did find a WFCO 8955 MBA-AD, Power Converter, and I wanted to know if that would be a suitable replacement compatible with the Parallax power center, or if I should get another Parallax ATS 301. Again thanks you so much for the information. Jim 1 Likes
Re: No Shore Power, Etc. Reply #6 – March 22, 2024, 04:39:35 am Hi Jim; The fact that the GFCI being off allows the generator to start and run, but with the GFCI switched on, shuts off the generator, tells me that; If there is a shorted line, between hot and neutral after the GFCI breaker, it should trip the 30A breaker at the generator. Since it doesn't trip that generator main breaker, the GFCI detects a fault, shuts off, and disconnects something that keeps the generator running. I wonder if something was mis-wired. One of the items after the GFCI (one of the outlets) could be feeding somehow back to generator 'start' or 'run' circuitry. In addition: because there is no delay after starting the generator for the microwave, and the 110VAC from shore power isn't passed through; there is something wrong with the relay. That issue may account for the problem with the GFCI, so fix that relay first. If it did work before with the Parallax ATS 301, I would replace that. (ATS is an Automatic Transfer Switch) Presently I don't see any reason there would be a problem with the converter. I wouldn't replace that. As a trouble shooting aid, First check the wiring of the outlet you are plugging the motorhome shore power plug in to. Then I would connect the shoreline power incoming hot (black) wire directly to the input to the main circuit breaker input, 30 Amp main breaker. You can do that at the connections at the bus transfer switch. Have the GFCI breaker off. The microwave, roof air and converter power (+12v dc, should work normally. Turn on the GFCI breaker and your outlets should all work properly. If the GFCI won't come on, there is a fault somewhere in your outlet boxes, house wiring, or some other item plugged in. Unplug the refrigerator first. sometimes the electric heater element can contact the grounded case around the heater internally. Or something could have chewed a wire in the back of the refrigerator causing a ground fault. You don't have a water heater electric element, correct? External battery chargers, phone, watch, laptop, tooth brush, coffee grinder, etc. nothing plugged in to any outlets (except microwave is on it's own branch circuit.) Any recent items screwed into the walls? Unplug that "big Heat" heater for now. If the GFCI stays on, with shore power; check each socket with a tester for proper wiring before plugging any items in. If you can get everything to work, then we can discuss the buss transfer relay. RonB 1 Likes
Re: No Shore Power, Etc. Reply #7 – March 26, 2024, 08:29:28 pm Hi Ron,Today, I tapped the relay and got the switch to “pop” and the shore power came back on, but the GFCI breaker wouldn’t stay on. I checked the wiring of the outlet that the “big heat” had been plugged into but couldn’t see any sign of a short, so I replaced the outlet, but the GFCI still wouldn’t stay on. I then unplugged the refrigerator, but that too didn’t help. The wiring for the refrigerator looks fine, and there’s no sign of any rodents. There is nothing plugged into any of the other outlets, so I’m not sure how to trace down a short when there is no current going to the outlets. Jim 1 Likes
Re: No Shore Power, Etc. Reply #8 – March 27, 2024, 12:42:57 am Hi Jim. Use that multi meter to measure ohms between the neutral (white wire) and the ground (bare or green wire) on one of the outlets controled by that GFCI. There should be no connection, high ohms, especially with nothing plugged in.. GFCI's operate by measuring (nearly instantaneously) the current flowing out of the breaker, and current returning. If it isn't a perfect match, then there is current leaking to ground somewhere. Possibly through a person who is conducting the electricity. RonB 2 Likes
Re: No Shore Power, Etc. Reply #9 – April 01, 2024, 07:57:12 pm Hi Ron,Yesterday, I used the multimeter to measure the ohns at the outside outlet. I thought it was the most likely one to have a short, and my nephew found a seven year old post titled “Big Storm” on the Lazy Daze Club site about a power outage after an extreme rain and wind event, and they traced it to the outside outlet. The outlet measured .3 compared to .510 for the outlets inside. So I changed out the outlet and plugged in the shore power, but the GFCI breaker tripped again, so I checked the outlet for the refrigerator, and it measured .499, so I replaced it too, and plugged the LD back in, and the GFCI stayed on. I then ran the generator, and it too worked perfectly. We’ve lived for five years on the north coast of California and had cyclonic wind and rain events before, but never had a power outage. So I want to thank you again for your assistance. I’ve learned a lot more about electronics in the last three weeks trouble shooting this problem than I had for the 40+ years I’ve owned a Lazy Daze. Jim 2 Likes
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