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Topic: combining AGM and Lithium ..... please hear me first .... (Read 1095 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: combining AGM and Lithium ..... please hear me first ....
Reply #50 –
I use a NOCO trickle charger to keep the Jeep's battery maintained when parked for longer periods. It has the same proprietary plugs, odd-looking things that are unlike any I have seen before, Dave's suggestion seems to be the best way of approaching this problem. Checking NOCO's site, I see nothing like what you want.

I would be tempted to combine the female plug and a blank wall receptacle plate, drill a hole in the cover plate the same size as the plug and glue the plug in position with a plastic epoxy.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: combining AGM and Lithium ..... please hear me first ....
Reply #51 –

Hi Muhammad;  I suspect that those are proprietary plugs and sockets only available from Noco.  You could cut one end off and use Anderson power pole connectors.  They come in different current and size ranges.  They are easily adapted, reconfigurable, and fixable.  Not water proof, but very sturdy. I use the 50 Amp capable size with 10 ga. wire pair.  https://powerwerx.com/anderson-powerpole-connectors-30amp-bonded?gclid=CjwKCAjwjMiiBhA4EiwAZe6jQ3VqH3R7RzE2RmLghdhRSX3gH17cF7OltsF_sWE6VaNxnBtD5BQvxBoChP8QAvD_BwE   I have a 50 Amp plug in my refrigerator compartment for easy access. (They do have dust cap plugs) and a 50 A. resettable circuit breaker.

Another source on Amazon:  Amazon.com: OMT Wire Connector 4 Pack, 50A Wire Harness Plug Kit for 6-12...
   I can run my air compressor from my Li batteries direct, or feed power in from extra solar panels. Charge my Tracker's battery (just a battery assist).
   I can crimp and solder, haven't needed a hydraulic crimper.    RonB

As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: combining AGM and Lithium ..... please hear me first ....
Reply #52 –
Thanks all.

Modifying NOCO proprietary  interface to be used as socket does not look very appealing. I will test the new hybrid battery system during next trip and if performance is in line with my exoectations, I will will revisit after coming back from Alaska.

Regards,

Re: combining AGM and Lithium ..... please hear me first ....
Reply #53 –
Well to be clear, you cut off the wire end that doesn't plug into the power supply, and attach those loose individual wire ends to usually ring terminals.  Those ring terminals attach to the battery posts.  That wire would be unplugged from the battery charger at the battery charger. I'm sure the charger can be left connected, when there is no 110 VAC to charge your batteries.   The wire can be replaced for other uses of the chargers when needed.     RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: combining AGM and Lithium ..... please hear me first ....
Reply #54 –
Ron,

Thanks again and appretiate ... I know you are trying to help me understand. You and many other folks on the form are very generous with your time and without you I will be jealously looking at fabilious RV life style from the other side of the fence. Thansk again. beside RV lifestyle you and lot of other folks are giving me courage to restart doing things on my own again. Although each and every muscle is complaining after last three days of work but I am very happy to be able to be able to do these projects again.

Sorry for digressing, I am already doing eactly what you mentioned. I uncrewed clamps from the charger which exposed the rings which re now perminantly attached to engine battery. Other side of the rigns is the propritary plug which I tied with the front grill with two elect ties. I hope it wiill not get loose and even worse does not get inbetwen any moving part. This is not elegant solution ....

I am done with battery project wiring and initial tests resutls are impressive but still few more tests are left and then real world experience. If everything works according to plan, I will have additional 90% of 400amp available per day (assuming I am driving daily for 10 hours which is actually not even close to reality) but assumption is that I will have enough power to use space heater (my space heater use 900 watt), I can use dehumedifier if heater is running (small dc one does not work even after changing couple of them) and sky is the limit, I can use humedifier with my bipap machine and perhaps this trip I can take coffee machie with me. Now that I know how to add battery and have tools and I actually enjoyed doing this project nobody stop me continue with bigger power bank and get rid of propane etc etc. but  first thing first .... coming to the issue, I want to continue to use the Lazy Days wiring instead of having a parallel system. Easist way for me to do is to have a battery charger from newly installed inverter to coach battery (and if I want to be more efficient why not dc to dc charger). To achieve this goal I just want to turn on a switch to start charging coach batteries  rather then looking for some hanging proprieter socket (and if dc to dc charger can detect low battery capacity in coach battery, energy transfer can be automatic) ...... I paid about $40 for the charger with I am using enginge battery maintainance. I wanted to use it for charging the house batteries from Lithium battery but if getting a solution is not clean then it is not worth it ...... perhaps a second dc to dc charger and when I am ready perhaps there will more intelligent systems :-)

I am a dreamer, I am not sure if this experiement will work during a long  trip right now it is too good to be true .... hope this long message at least convey this message that I am not looking for just a working solution I am seeing lot of potential with DC to DC charger which can perhaps make lot of our lives easier in coming months and years ....

Only few years ago when I was looking at designing Sprinter, I was disappointed that I cannot carry enough water. At that time if I could have avoided heavy battery weight, perhaps I would be writing in different forum :-) but am glad to have Lazy Daze.


Quote from: RonB  - 
Well to be clear, you cut off the wire end that doesn't plug into the power supply, and attach those loose individual wire ends to usually ring terminals.  Those ring terminals attach to the battery posts.  That wire would be unplugged from the battery charger at the battery charger. I'm sure the charger can be left connected, when there is no 110 VAC to charge your batteries.   The wire can be replaced for other uses of the chargers when needed.     RonB
Re: combining AGM and Lithium ..... please hear me first ....
Reply #55 –
On the road and dc to dc charger did not disappoint, I realized I can chage settings to charge new battery while on shore power or even with existing solar power setup... for now simple senario of detecting engine start and stop should be enough but good to have options and will customize for our needs as we will be taking longer breaks latter during this trip .. biggest reason for bettery was to use bipap with humidifier. Plan was to use inverter with extension cord .... and now kicking by back ... wish I would have installed cigrate lighter socket as well for 12 V outlet ... bipap application is 6-7 hrs per day and wastage for dc->ac->dc will be significant which could be avoided with 12V outlet ... will not drive too much to find a hardware store but keeping my eyes open ... will be stopping by Quadra factory on Monday to fix big foot leveler, if my memory is any good there is Walmart withinn walking distance.
Re: combining AGM and Lithium ..... please hear me first ....
Reply #56 –
Quote from: Muhammad  - 
.. bipap application is 6-7 hrs per day and wastage for dc->ac->dc will be significant which could be avoided with 12V outlet ... will not drive too much to find a hardware store but keeping my eyes open ... will be stopping by Quadra factory on Monday to fix big foot leveler, if my memory is any good there is Walmart withinn walking distance.

Buying parts on the road isn't difficult if Amazon stocks the parts, and have the parts delivered to an Amazon box near where you will be staying.
We have used this service several times while traveling.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: combining AGM and Lithium ..... please hear me first ....
Reply #57 –
Thanks Larry.

We are going very slow but we do move daily till we reach Glacier National Park by the end of the month. I am realizing buying with Amazon on road is getting easier but in our case old fashion brick and mortar is needed.

I am watching battery charge while Sophia is driving and during bulk chage phase battery is getting 32 amp. My bipap is 24 v (I thought it was 18 v) and take 3.75 amp. For roughly 10 hours I need 70 amp at 12 v. If I do not account for some heating and wastage two hours of driving will keep me afloat. We do have shore power at few places before we hit Hlacier NP and hope by then I will have 12 V socket. Fortunately I do have few more tools this time around.

Battery came with a cheap charger with some new type of interface (new to me). I will check, if I get 12 v at that connection I can disect charger and my extension wire :-)
Re: combining AGM and Lithium ..... please hear me first ....
Reply #58 –
Got the parts and connection is working. Forgot a get turn/off switch and a light on receptor will be perminantly night light till I put a switch :-)

Is there a way to bring the wire from back of driver seat to back? What is below the stove? Behind the propane or carbon monoxide detector?

Second question, are there 12 volt extention cord? Cigrater lighter plug at one end and receptor at the other end. Because of bathroom I have to bring lighter receptor above converter and use extention cord (if one exist)

Re: combining AGM and Lithium ..... please hear me first ....
Reply #59 –
Quote from: Muhammad  - 


My bipap is 24 v (I thought it was 18 v) and take 3.75 amp. For roughly 10 hours I need 70 amp at 12 v. If I do not account for some heating and wastage two hours of driving will keep me afloat. We do have shore power at few places before we hit Hlacier NP and hope by then I will have 12 V socket

Second question, are there 12 volt extention cord? Cigrater lighter plug at one end and receptor at the other end. Because of bathroom I have to bring lighter receptor above converter and use extention cord (if one exist)

Is there a way to bring the wire from back of driver seat to back? What is below the stove? Behind the propane or carbon monoxide detector?

I need to make sure I understand what you want to do.
Do you want to run the bipap on 12 volts @ 70-amps?

If so, a normal cigarette lighter plug is only made to handle 10-15-amps.
No over-the-counter cigarette lighter extension cord will have larger enough wires.

You will need to upgrade the plug to an Anderson-style plug, as Ron suggests and use heavy cable ranging from 6-gauge to 2-gauge depending on how long the wire run is.
Wire sizing. Calculate the round trip length of the wire.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_VRM_ZGUKdc/ViOeH4m70tI/AAAAAAABdd8/tp6hj68cVTg/s1600/DC%2Bwire%2Bselection%2Bchart.jpg
Anderson Plugs
https://www.andersonpower.com/content/dam/app/ecommerce/product-pdfs/SB50/ds-sb50.pdfhttps://www.andersonpower.com/content/dam/app/ecommerce/product-pdfs/SB120/ds-sb120.pdf

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: combining AGM and Lithium ..... please hear me first ....
Reply #60 –
Bipap consumption is 7.5 amp at 12 V. I could have stopped here ...

Wire I got can carry 13 amp and am fine there. As for socket, not sure wattage rating for it but guess 7.5×12 wattage is not too high to worry.

In my case Bipap has time function as well. Means I do tend to forget to breath while sleeping (about 95% apnea is obstructive type, I do have something called central and is not common). Wattage I am quoting here is max need, but machine does not need this much power on constant basis.

So how can I route the wire from back of driver seat to bedroom in the gack?
Re: combining AGM and Lithium ..... please hear me first ....
Reply #61 –
"I realized I can change settings to charge new battery while on shore power or even with existing solar power setup"

I know beans about any of this, but my reasoning in favor of a stand-alone power station included its ability to be wherever I wanted to have power.  In addition, there are places to plug in 110, 12-volt, and USB items to be charged or utilized.  There is a 30-amp plug-in as well, but a unit would need to have a lot of power to run a whole motorhome for very long, I would think.

It was hard for me to come to terms with just how little actual power is available in a stand-alone battery that is not being continuously, or at least routinely, recharged by some means.  And the output from a generator is vastly underrated.

When the numbers are examined, a solar panel system of 200 to 400 watts is about normal.  A generator in a small motorhome like my Pleasure-Way provides 2800 watts; most larger motorhomes have a 4000-watt generator; indeed, when we had a 40-foot diesel pusher, the generator powered up at 7500 watts.  A fuel-dependent generator is not dependent on the time of day, or condition of the sky for refilling itself.  But it does use gasoline; some others use propane.  So there is always a need for some source for refueling the battery power system.

I've heard that there "just ain't no free lunch".


   Virtual hugs,

   Judie
Re: combining AGM and Lithium ..... please hear me first ....
Reply #62 –
I looked at built in power stations and they would not solved my issues. Initially i bought two systems and they travelling me and may be used durung the trip. Perhaps i can put them on bicycle to extend the range. There is a place for readymade systems but we do go out for longer trips and getting more daring with each trip and more and more I am finding out shore power to be a luxury. I am getting lot of messages from my reservations about renovation, who knows how much money government is spending upgrading infrastructure and perhaps future may be different.

Let say I get 1000 watt or even 2000 watt system ... 2000 watt system will give me 2000/12 less than 200 amp. Battery I got is 400 amp. Creating a system took physical tool but now I can twick, I can simply bypass inverter to save conversion energy. I am not scared of making more holes or snake wires, etc. etc. I gaveup getting competent help and atheist on coach side I will make mistake but atheist I started taking charge.

Then the elephant in the room ... as soon as we reach Glacier national park we rarely get shore power. Charging portable system will be difficult .. now just hour of driving put 30 amp or 360 watts and according to my calculation three hours of driving should top off battery if I use it only for bipap. We used it for heater for early am as well.

My comment you quoted was the power of intelligence built in dc to dc charger. I know after few experimentation I will not touch them infact I might use one more but going slow ...

Then there is future expansion... I got cheap chinease battery. Let say if I am fortunate and battery last for a year by that time hope lighter technology will be available. For AGM I am carrying are atleat 200 pounds, sooner or latter they need to be changed and now I do have the knowhow on what need to be done.

Coming back to Portable system, it is easy solution and there are few system which are expendable as well but I think I did fine. Did I say I can charge agm from lithium if need be ... I doubt I will use lithium for this purpose there are enough applications for lithium.
Re: combining AGM and Lithium ..... please hear me first ....
Reply #63 –
Quote from: Muhammad  - 
For roughly 10 hours I need 70 amp at 12 v.

Bipap consumption is 7.5 amp at 12 V.

So how can I route the wire from the back of the driver's seat to the bedroom in the gack?

There is a big difference between 70-amps and 7.5-amps.
For 75-amp/hours a night, a good solar array can easily handle that, something to think about for future upgrades, assuming you keep your LD that long.

You could run the wire through the lower, driver-side cabinets, around the water tank, and under the stove into the corner cabinet.
Next run the wire through the bathroom wall, under the raised toilet. The shower is the tough one but I think you can get under it, it was possible in older MBs but it has been a long time since I did one of these.
Once under the shower, you can bring the wire out at the front of the couch or run through the exterior cargo compartment and have the wire exit at the rear of the interior.
It can be done but is a big job and requires quite a bit of disassembly and drilling to provide a hidden pathway for the wire.
It also requires crawling into cabinets and other tight spots, hard on the body, and the main reason why I quit working on LDs.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: combining AGM and Lithium ..... please hear me first ....
Reply #64 –
Larry,
Thanks.

I do read and reread the message for clarity before pressing the post and I should work harder to clarify my messages. It is not an excuse but after stroke I do realize I do miss words in my sentences which sometime change the meaning. Fortunately, I am retired now, and my messages do not make Wallstreet headlines :-) I mentioned 7.5 amp and then jumped to 70 amp in 10 hours. Few extra words would have conved the message more clearly.

Thanks for the information. I asked my wife to check if wires or socket was warm early in the morning which she forgot but I will be surprised if there is any issue here ... As for energy saving using DC directly I realized that battery moved out of the bulk to float mode within few minutes of driving (compared to 2+ hrs of driving using inverter). I will follow your directions and simply bring the wire till converter and put recepter next to the converter. I will look for dc extention chord in next oppertunity and in the worst case I do have additional wire and crimps to extend the reach of bipap dc to dc brick extention. Not planning on unnecessary risk of going under the shower.

As for keeping Lazy Daze, it was proof of concept and an experiment for us. We were getting tiered of cruising. Alaska trip will either take us to next level or break us ... I was (am still to some extent) interested in Mitsubishi truck cabover expedition vehicle. Both me and Sophia do not have any terminal sickness (except for being humans :-)) and my 64th birthday is still couple of months away. We are getting very found of LazyDaze and spending couple of hours with all of my tools out making connections was fun and healthy. Putting in additional battery also took me to past ... We will continue with road trips and of course overseas road trips are on the plate but I think our neighbourhood in US and Canada has lot to offer and will keep us busy for rest of our lives. Staying in US and Canada, I do not see any thing better then Lazy Daze. May be Coach House but differential do not justify making a switch now. Tiger was another option but sleeping arrangement is not for us .... enjoying LazyDaze today and as for tomorrow who knows ...

Be well ... you been a source of knowledge and are generous with your time. May God bless you and your family with rest of other contributors on this forum.

Regards
Re: combining AGM and Lithium ..... please hear me first ....
Reply #65 –
Hi,
Last question before we can close the topic. I took Larry's advice and taking two drawers out which showed a clear path below stove and sink. I am satisfied for now with the results (there is more potential for future work and I may reopen this topic if need be). To hide wire connections between receptor and wire from battery I had to make bigger holes to push crimps inside the cabin. **Is there any thing I can do to hide these bigger openings. ** Not an emergency but I am sure sooner I hide this issue better off I will be :-) I do not have heat shrinks or wraps (not sure correct terminology) with me and could not find them in walmart and ended up using electrical tapes at every connections and keep checking short circuit at each step ...

I used simple wire to extend bipap 12 v to 24 v converter extend. Seems to be working but not sure why vendor used coaxel cable. Will be looking for any side effects of using simple wire with coaxal wire to transfer the current.

Not sure I ever read any discussion about LazyDaze drawer on the forum. Taking drawer and putting them back correctly itself was a task but now I know for future.

Want to thank team for this project. I used all the knowledge you shared and took all the tools you suggested and used most of them multiple time. Hope I will not have to open the tool box anytime soon.

Regards
Re: combining AGM and Lithium ..... please hear me first ....
Reply #67 –
Update....and closure

I will be honest, I was nurvous making any major change close to a long trip but did not see another option when Sophia pointed out that we will be out of shore power for 30+ consecutive days...

Upgrade worked as expected. I was using my bipap with humedifier and tube heating as I do at home without any issue at all. I also tested and I could have used air heater for 5 hrs continously if needed be and fortunately need did not arise.

As for DC to DC charger, it start the current flow from house AGM battery if it detect house battery has 14+ (it may be 13V, senior moment). When truck starts, alternator do create correct voltage and new battery start charging. I also notice that when truck is parked and solar completely charge the the house battery, volt start going up which trigger DC to DC charger. Of course voltage goes down with in few seconds if 30amp start transferring but in few hours new battery do get enough juice. This is logical behavior but I am not experienced and was plesently surprised.

With this, I will like to close this thread with a thank you note to everybody helped me with how to do this project, especially gentleman who has similar setup and shared detail information, components required, tools, wiring route and most importantly encouragement. I can find out if I have dual alternator and put  parallel DC to DC charger but for my need current set up is good enough. Cheap Chinese battery also hold up pretty well.

Regards,