Solar Upgrade April 07, 2023, 01:15:01 pm Fellow LDers,I'm about to begin the process of a DIY solar upgrade.It will be phased, to allow us to squeeze in a number of camping trips concurrently. I will start with four new Renogy 200 watt monocrystalline panels, mounted to the roof, and run the wiring inside, temporarily connecting directly to a Bluetti AC200MAX portable power station. The existing solar system (two 100 watt panels connected through a SolarBoost 3000i controller to two series connected 6V AGM batteries) will stay in place for now. Eventually I will upgrade the rest of the electronics, replace the two 100 watt panels with another 200 watt Renogy panel, and leave the Bluetti at home.So, I've been trying to decide on a flexible method of mounting the panels to the roof. I found an interesting video on YouTube about a mounting method using a combination of strut channel and angle brackets. I really like the flexibility in this system. Here is the link: youtube.com/watch?v=UY98-WQ0VTwPlease let me know what you think of this mounting method.Thanks,Tim 1 Likes
Re: Solar Upgrade Reply #1 – April 07, 2023, 01:19:09 pm Sorry, let's try that link again:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY98-WQ0VTwTim
Re: Solar Upgrade Reply #2 – April 07, 2023, 02:22:18 pm Tim, before investing in all these panels, consider how you will maneuver yourself around on the roof. Unless you plan to soon install an induction cooktop and compressor fridge, you will be unlikely to need 1000W of panels or more. Without planning a coincident battery upgrade, this is way more than you can use.Steve
Re: Solar Upgrade Reply #3 – April 07, 2023, 03:23:14 pm As someone who has 850 watts of solar on his TK, and would have more if I had more roof (and battery) space, I don’t think 1000 is excessive, when you factor in winter sunlight and cloudy day charging. I still haven’t ruled out expanding my current bank of 400ah LiFePO4 (4800 watt hours) by replacing my gas generator with a bunch more LiFePO4.Once your done with all your upgrades in the future, how much LiFePO4 capacity will you have, and the associated inverter? I presume that AGMs are not part of the final picture as that much solar is overkill for AGMs.But to the actual method, strut channels provide a nice airflow for the panels, which he mentions. Looks fine to me, and allows for future upgrades with panels of different dimensions, at the cost of extra real estate up top. Of course a fifth wheel has plenty of space. I would have oriented strut channels and the angle brackets opposite to what he did so you have the better air flow in motion. But 5th wheels tend to travel a little and sit a lot.Those wing nuts securing the angle bracket/panel tilts concerns me for something in motion, suspect they would loosen. 1 Likes
Re: Solar Upgrade Reply #4 – April 07, 2023, 04:06:14 pm Dave,Thanks for the comments.I will have about 600ah of LiFePO4 batteries (I am considering three 12V 206ah SOKs), and a 3kW inverter.I also have a concern about the wing nuts - I would go for something more secure.Tim
Re: Solar Upgrade Reply #5 – April 07, 2023, 07:36:58 pm Hi Tim; You are doing so much electrical, now is the time to ditch the AGM's and the 'not like the other new ones' solar panels. Most people I know (Kent!) have the tilt ability, but don't use it. Just another risk getting up on the roof. Cleaning and any other type of maintenance may happen very infrequently. To save weight, use aluminum strut channel. Painting it white, spray cans are for that. To unlatch the panels to fold them up for maintenance I used SS spring latches. Just two, to make sure the PV panel rack assembly stayed put. JQK Spring Loaded Latch Pin, 304 Stainless Steel Barrel Bolt Thickened 2mm... Having those panels up so high is good for cooling. Not so good for tree branches, especially on the passenger side. Some cities have curbside trees that hang low enough to whack my antennas. (parts of Fresno where my relatives live.) Catch one big enough branch, and you may be replacing panels more often than you think. Many campgrounds also have low hanging branches. I rely on taller class 'A' coaches to clean out those branches for me. Three 200 AH batteries is tremendous overkill. With that much reserve capacity, you can do less solar. 500 to 800 Watts of solar. Three days of Morro Bay with clouds and very little sun, and only 350 watts of solar hooked up. (build out of 450W) not finished yet. I ran the heater a lot, and the microwave and hair drier, and never got below 71% SOC. Easily could have tolerated down in to the 30-40% SOC. I know someone who has lots of solar and battery that runs an electric box heater instead of wasting propane! RonB 1 Likes As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: Solar Upgrade Reply #6 – April 08, 2023, 05:43:02 pm Ron,Where can I get aluminum strut channel and compatible locking slider bolts? I've been trying to wade through google search results on this, but I wonder if you might know of a source.I plan to screw the strut channel through into the roof directly into the roof rafters. I wonder what size lumber they used for these. Provided that I can locate the rafters correctly, I would not expect to hit any wiring, but what do I know? This process is a bit of a nail-biter.Also, what is your source for the 5200 fast cure? I had a decent sized tube, but it dried out.Thanks,Tim
Re: Solar Upgrade Reply #7 – April 08, 2023, 05:58:54 pm "Where can I get aluminum strut channel and compatible locking slider bolts?"Try McMaster-Carr for the aluminum strut channel and bolts."what is your source for the 5200 fast cure?"I bought a 10-ounce tube from Amazon last week. However, it came without the screw-on nozzle that was supposed to be included. Fortunately, I had one left over from an old tube (also from Amazon) that went bad before use, but other Amazon customers have also mentioned missing-nozzle complaints. 1 Likes As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: Solar Upgrade Reply #8 – April 08, 2023, 10:15:44 pm Hi Tim; Some government group in southern Cal has banned 3M 5200, at least the FastCure. So I ordered a small squeeze tube from Amazon. It showed up a while later, shipped from some small company (Minnesota?). I guess that underwater use leads to it leaching into the water? You might try 3M 4200 instead. Aluminum slotted channel Slotted Standard 1-5/8 in x 13/16 in Strut Channel, Aluminum, 14 ga, 5... Pretty expensive. I don't think you'll see many RV's with this method of attaching solar panels. McMaster Carr as Andy stated has lots of stuff. As far as locating the roof rafters, I'm sure there is a way, but I'd be guessing. Thumping the roof comes to mind. In my rig there are small white headed brads in the ceiling to attach the ceiling into trusses. So translating those on to the roof might work. RonB 2 Likes As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: Solar Upgrade Reply #9 – April 09, 2023, 09:58:25 am Ron,I'll see whether I can order the 5200 - I have a feeling they will not ship it into California.Yes, the aluminum strut channel certainly is expensive, but it's a lot lighter than the steel. I'll cost it out.As far as locating the structural members in the roof: I was planning to do what you mentioned - locate the fasteners in the ceiling board inside the coach, and measure from a fixed reference point also visible from above (edge of a ceiling fan opening, for example) - and thumping the roof to try to confirm the measurements. As I said, a nail biter.Tim
Re: Solar Upgrade Reply #10 – April 09, 2023, 11:00:06 am Tim,Here are pics of my two 100 watt panels LD installed on our ‘15 RB and a shot of how AM Solar installed my new panels.I’m not sure how LD fastened the panels but they were mounted directly to the roof. Screwed and glued? I’m not sure. AM Solar did not screw my 6 panels to the roof. They may screw them down now. I can tilt them but it’s a pain to do just one and I have so much solar up there I don’t bother. Walking around up there is not for me. I just shuffle around on my knees when up top.Have fun with your new system. For me, our upgrade was the perfect solution for all our power needs. Generator? Still have ours. Wouldn’t do without it. Always hedging my bets for power generation. Kent
Re: Solar Upgrade Reply #11 – April 09, 2023, 11:28:23 am Quote from: Kent Heckethorn - April 09, 2023, 11:00:06 amI’m not sure how LD fastened the panels but they were mounted directly to the roof. Screwed and glued? I’m not sure. AM Solar did not screw my 6 panels to the roof. They may screw them down now. AM Solar is still using VHB tape as of my install May 2022, then the whole mount is covered with sealant to protect the tape.
Re: Solar Upgrade Reply #12 – April 09, 2023, 12:51:54 pm Finally had a chance to view the video and have a few thoughts.My first observation is how vulnerable the panels are to tree attacks and increasing the distance off the roof just increases the hazard. This is a real problem, I have repaired roofs and panels that have been damaged by trees.I would prefer to keep the panels lower to the roof and then add an extra panel or two to offset any loss of power caused by heating.Mounting the panels on aluminum Unistrut isn't a bad idea but it may be overkill, the panels weigh next to nothing compared to panels from 15-20 years ago. If you do use Unistrut, try NOT to screw into the roof rafters, the screws could split the rafter. The 5200 is what will hold the strut to the roof, the screws hold the Unistrut in place while the adhesive cures, after that, they serve little purpose. 3M 5200 FC is a extremely strong adhesive when applied to a cleansurface.The video made a big point of adjustability or the ease of switching to bigger panels in the future.With proper planning and layout, using the biggest panels that will fit NOW should eliminate having to do it again in the future.Using the stock panel mounts, glued and screwed to the roof or attached with VHS tape has worked for thousands of panels installed by AM Solar and other RV shops. If a panel is damaged and needs replacement, it can still be removed without a huge effort. If a panel is replaced with a physically bigger panel, screw holes can easily be patched and sealed. Your roof already has dozens of sealed screw holes from the Factory. Tilting the panels is something many owners stop using after a few experiences. Getting the maximum power out from the tilted panels requires parking almost in an exact east-west parking orientation. One end of the rig will always be pointed west and the other end to the east, you may not always get the view you would prefer. Getting the parking angle off a few degrees can significantly reduce the total daily production, in these situations, flat panels are best. Once again, to offset any loss of power generation caused by either not raising the panels or not being properly oriented, I usually suggest adding another panel. Never heard anyone complain about having too many panels.800 watts of the new panel combined with a 200-watt panel should give you more than enough power in almost any situation except long-term heavily overcast sky. With 400-amps of lithium batteries, you should be able to ride out bad weather and if not, you still have the generator. As a plus, lithium batteries charge several times faster than AGM batteries while using the generator. A larger converter would speed the charging even more.Back to the video. He powder-coated the Unistrut. Aluminum Unistrut mounted on an aluminum roof does not need powder coating, it would be cosmetic and not provide any real benefits. No one will even see it. Unistrut rails are treated for outdoor use and do not need coatings.About a year ago, I replaced the lead-acid batteries in our LD with 200-amp/hr of lithium batteries and added a 2200-watt inverter, the batteries are charged by 560 watts of solar. We run a 12-volt, 40 qt compressor ice chest all the time. Since the change, we have camped in a lot of poor weather, last summer in Wyoming and recently when we camped on California's Central Coast for three weeks during wave after wave of atmospheric river storms. Only once during a year of camping has the generator been used for charging the batteries, only running for an hour. If another 100 amp/hr battery had been installed the generator would not have been needed at all.3M 5200 Fast Cure is still available from West Marine, I received a tube from them a few days ago. Amazon will not sell it to California residents.Larry 4 Likes
Re: Solar Upgrade Reply #13 – April 09, 2023, 09:57:38 pm Dave,VHB tape sounds like a great option. It would be great to avoid drilling holes in the roof.Question: what type of mounting bracket is that in the photo you provided? I'll assume there was one near each corner of the panel.Thanks,Tim
Re: Solar Upgrade Reply #14 – April 09, 2023, 10:27:46 pm Quote from: T&F - April 09, 2023, 09:57:38 pmVHB tape sounds like a great option. It would be great to avoid drilling holes in the roof.Question: what type of mounting bracket is that in the photo you provided? I'll assume there was one near each corner of the panel.I presume AM Solar used one of these L FeetAM Solar is not only an installer, they provide equipment for a DIY project, as well as information on how to.
Re: Solar Upgrade Reply #15 – April 09, 2023, 11:12:55 pm Larry,Thanks for the great comments. I agree with your concerns about panel height near the side of the coach. I still might be interested in using the unistrut, but bonded to the roof with VHB tape rather than screwed - this seems like it would be really strong, although it may indeed be overkill.The more I read about VHB tape, the better it sounds.I did a 3/8" = 1' scale drawing of the coach roof, with all of it obstructions. This made it a lot easier to plan panel placement. I'm thinking of installing five 100 watt Renogy panels all along the passenger side of the roof (these are 42" L x 21" W), and two 200 watt Renogy panels in the area between the Dometic A/C unit and the front fantastic fan (these are 58" L x 27" W). This will give me 900 watts. If I want an even kilowatt, I could add one more 100 watt panel at the driver side rear, in back of the shower skylight.I think this arrangement would give me adequate room to move around on the roof.Tim
Re: Solar Upgrade Reply #16 – April 10, 2023, 10:02:10 am Quote from: T&F - April 07, 2023, 04:06:14 pmDave,Thanks for the comments.I will have about 600ah of LiFePO4 batteries (I am considering three 12V 206ah SOKs), and a 3kW inverter.I also have a concern about the wing nuts - I would go for something more secure.TimJust a note about the SOKs - the current model has a maximum continuous discharge rate of 1/2 C. This means 600 Ah will have a max discharge rate of 300A. This is a lot, and a good match to the inverter, but you would get the same rate with 3 of most other manufacturers' 100Ah batteries, taking up less room and weight. So if you want to maximize storage capacity, go with the SOKs, but if you want to use high-draw appliances in typical useage, other choices may work for you with less bulk.Steve
Re: Solar Upgrade Reply #17 – April 10, 2023, 12:45:28 pm I to am thinking of upgrading my solar. I have a 2000 LD rear kitchen. The original owner had the factory install one 85 watt BP Solar panel with a Heliotrope solar controller when he bought the rv. I still have 2 6volt gc (Les Schwab) flooded batteries. I am thinking of upgrading the solar panels (maybe 2 x 200 amp Rich solar or ?), solar controller (23 years old) and looking at lithium batteries. I see that AM Solar has a Blue Sky solar control and also a Heliotrope to Blue Sky adapter plate to help cover the cut out. Is Blue Sky a good controller. My question is if I do change to lithium do I need a BIM (battery isolation manager) to control the power from the alternator for engine charging of the batteries?Appreciate any advice.Kevin Hannah
Re: Solar Upgrade Reply #18 – April 10, 2023, 01:00:13 pm Hi Steve; Yes, 3x S.O.K 206's would take up more room and weight. But not much. 1/4 of a cubic foot, and 50 pounds with a bit more $85/ battery ($255) doubles the capacity from 300AH to 600AH. When talking battery/solar improvements with the addition of a 3kw inverter capable of running the roof A/C, that is a substantial investment but a big improvement for just a little more. So one thing I thought about, especially when putting my new panels up about 4 inches off the roof, was to 'double deck' them. The inexpensive cost of linear actuators. 3 foot for $60 ECO-WORTHY Heavy Duty 330lbs Solar Tracker Linear Actuator Multi-function... and ballbearing full extension drawer slides Amazon.com: VEVOR Drawer Slides 500 lb Capacity 1 Pair 60 Inch Length Heavy... might be an experiment in giving the awning some help while camped. Of course more trouble , cost, weight and $$ than it is worth. But tempting anyway. RonB As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: Solar Upgrade Reply #19 – April 10, 2023, 07:31:52 pm Hi Kevin; Where to start... A big toic with lots of parts and very dependent on money, need, and ability to do it yourself vs. paying somebody else. A 2000 definitely needs upgrading. A lot has changed in the last 23 years both electronically and solar panel/controller design. A lot of complexity is due to trying to get the most out of the solar panels and storing the power collected. For you as a first step: I recommend a lithium capable Progressive dynamics PD4655 new converter. A modern 'switcher' power supply can treat your lead acid batteries better, until you make the jump to LiFePO4 batteries. A simple jumper change on the PD converter is all that is needed for Lithium. The second step would be to upgrade the solar panel controller. The Heliotrope General has a better replacement that LD used. In the future if you stay under 500 Watts of solar, the Blue Sky Energy Solar Boost R3000i will serve your needs. It handles Lead acid well, many people here have them, and they can be manually re-programmed easily (really pretty simply) to set an output for Lithium. The MPPT controller improves how many useable watts you can get. You may need the adaptor that Blue Sky can provide. The third step is to increase how many solar panels you have and their quality. My 1999 panels were heavier, less water resistant, and lower efficiency. The newer panels are lighter, built better and have improved efficiency in addition to being one fifth of the cost in 2000. 400 watts or so will help your new (many used available) solar controller keep your L/A batteries in good shape. You won't need to change the engine alternator charge, diode isolator setup until you go Lithium. Even then you can still use it, it just won't charge the LI batteries as fast as you could, but they will still charge. The Li batteries don't like cold, and are expensive. To protect them, you can get internal heaters. You have an MB and it is easy to locate the batteries inside in a warmer area. The Li's can be mounted in any orientation. (probably not best upside down) and don't need to be vented. You probably do need two Li's to get enough discharge current to start a generator. About 90 Amps on our older Emerald II genset. Not as much on the newer Onan MicroQuiet. The battery management systems come mounted inside the battery and are designed for that specific battery. I added a Renogy 60A DC/DC isolator. Still haven't hooked it up yet. It does have a selectable LiF battery charge profile. The internal battery manager will shut off the charging by itself. Solar, engine or converter. Ask me how I know! Another important step is a battery manager. With lithium batteries, it is hard to tell what their charge level is. Even with lead acid batteries a charge manager can tell you how well they are acting with the various charge/discharge sources and loads (drains). The upgrade can be done in steps, and I was prompted into doing it by my BalMar meter giving a rating on my older lead acids. Rather than replacing them, I went Lithium. That was about 2 years ago and the transition is still going, but nearly complete. RonB 2 Likes
Re: Solar Upgrade Reply #20 – April 11, 2023, 01:50:23 am Quote from: RonB - April 10, 2023, 07:31:52 pm The Li batteries don't like cold, and are expensive. To protect them, you can get internal heaters. You have an MB and it is easy to locate the batteries inside in a warmer area. I have low temp LiFeBlue lithium iron phosphate batteries, has an internal heater that allows it to be charged down to -5 F, along with built in Battery Management System, and bluetooth.They are only expensive up front, over their lifetime, they are competitive as they last twice as long, you can draw double the charge compared to the equivalent lead acid or AGM, weighs less, charges faster 1 Likes
Re: Solar Upgrade Reply #21 – April 11, 2023, 02:30:19 pm Thanks RonB.This is very valuable information for me. I like the step approach and I can do things as my budget allows. I know the converter was replaced in 2017 to a Progressive Dynamics PD4600 series, but I don't know the exact model as the LD is in the storage yard. So, it looks like I can still use the LD battery isolator for now and look at it when I do get the LI batteries. If I interpret what you said is that even when I convert to the LI batteries I can still use the battery isolator and not get the BIM and the only difference is that the alternator will still charge the LI batteries but not as quickly. This definitely gives me a starting point.I appreciate your help.Kevin Hannah
Re: Solar Upgrade Reply #22 – April 11, 2023, 11:40:45 pm Quote from: kevin hannah - April 11, 2023, 02:30:19 pmI know the converter was replaced in 2017 to a Progressive Dynamics PD4600 series, but I don't know the exact model as the LD is in the storage yard. So, it looks like I can still use the LD battery isolator for now and look at it when I do get the LI batteries. If I interpret what you said is that even when I convert to the LI batteries I can still use the battery isolator and not get the BIM and the only difference is that the alternator will still charge the LI batteries but not as quickly. Your PD 4600 converter can be adjusted for lithium batteries. It requires flipping a switch on the circuit board from lead acid to lithium.https://www.progressivedyn.com/wp-content/uploads/Support/manuals/4600_test.pdfThe LD's battery isolator will charge the lithium battery at a moderate rate while the engine runs. We have used the upgraded lithium system for a year without issues. 90+% of our LD's chassis battery charging comes from solar panels.Several years ago I switched from the original controller to a Blue Sky 3000i solar controller, using the adaptor plate, it works fine with lithium batteries after a few settings are changed. It's a good match for 400 watts of solar.If your electrical needs are not excessive, two 100 amp/hr lithium batteries will be adequate and will fit in the Factory batterycompartment, reducing the installation charges.The wires leading from the roof to the solar controller and down to the Power Center or battery will need to be replaced with larger wires to take full advantage of the bigger solar array. This would be done when the new panels are installed and an updated solar controller is installed.Larry 2 Likes
Re: Solar Upgrade Reply #23 – April 12, 2023, 07:30:09 pm Thanks Larry, you are a wealth of knowledge. I have asked questions on my old LD from years ago and you always come through. Much appreciated.Kevin Hannah
Re: Solar Upgrade Reply #24 – April 15, 2023, 01:32:27 pm We had 3" aluminum "L" angle metal which we cut off 3" pieces and drilled holes to mount our two Renogy 100 watt panels as "L" mounts similar to the AM Solar L feet. We bought VHB tape and attached those feet directly to the LD roof. Our tape base is 3"X 3" vs the AM Solar of 2.5" X 1" tape base. We figured double was doable. We did not screw those feet to the roof, they are only held by the VHB tape. Now after three years they are holding fine. We could add screws in the future if necessary but they is holding fine so far. We also added a tilt/ flip up feature but found that our LD must be pointed in the right direction and not much gain for the effort. Karen~Liam 98 ~ MB NinA
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