Lithium battery install January 20, 2023, 01:48:35 pm Well did the deed at the Q. Use Solar Bill. Spent the day and night there. Was in the market for Battle Born but seems we couldn't fit two of them in. Since I wanted two lithium batteries they, Solar Bill, sold me two UT 1300 Lion 12V 105AH batteries instead. About 200 each cheaper. The new batteries come with only a 40% charge so they let us camp with a electric hookup overnight to get a 100% charge. IMHO a very nice benefit. Of course nothing is easy on a ld install. Took three of them to install the DC to DC BIM in the engine compartment. Story for another day. 2 Likes
Re: Lithium battery install Reply #1 – January 20, 2023, 05:21:36 pm For the record, these are the BB batteries they should have tried - a direct replacement:100Ah 12V GC2 LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Battery | Battle Born BatteriesTo see a comparison:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRe9TWEEoI0Steve 2 Likes
Re: Lithium battery install Reply #2 – January 21, 2023, 03:51:14 am Quote from: Steve - January 20, 2023, 05:21:36 pmFor the record, these are the BB batteries they should have tried - a direct replacement:100Ah 12V GC2 LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Battery | Battle Born BatteriesTo see a comparison:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRe9TWEEoI0GREAT VIDEO FOR THE BB BATTERIES, I liked his vibration analysis and BB as the best choice for a MH. Can you put 4 of the BB in the battery compartment and the storage under the fridge? Presently I have 4 batteries in this area. $3600 for 4 Li batteries, whew.Steve 1 Likes
Re: Lithium battery install Reply #3 – January 21, 2023, 10:18:42 am Will's is accurate but (there is always a but ) he didn't take into account for end use. He also assumed that ALL users are the same type of user he is. He is a wizard on this information but some of us are not the types to take apart and rebuilt our batteries. Also some of us don't push high end inverters at max capacity daily. For my use the Lions are fine. My last set of lead acid batteries lasted 10 years. That should tell you how we use the battery power. I live in the PNW. I know rain. (Smile). I have never seen a drop moisture inside my battery compartment. Of course time will tell. Have no fear if this experiment fails I'll be more then happy to share with you all. (Smile) mother always said all lessons cost money. glen 2 Likes
Re: Lithium battery install Reply #4 – January 21, 2023, 11:59:56 am Quote from: rbkarrow - January 21, 2023, 03:51:14 amGREAT VIDEO FOR THE BB BATTERIES, I liked his vibration analysis and BB as the best choice for a MH. Can you put 4 of the BB in the battery compartment and the storage under the fridge? Presently I have 4 batteries in this area. $3600 for 4 Li batteries, whew.The T-105 batteries are the GC2 form factor, so wherever they fit the Battleborns I referenced will fit. Note that just a pair of 100Ah Battleborns will give you a consistent discharge safely to up to 90%, i.e 180Ah, throughout their 10y+ guaranteed lifetime. If you discharge your Trojans to 50% that is 225Ah for four batteries, not that much more, and with that deep a discharge their lifetime is likely much less than what you are now getting. With a heavy discharge rate, say 100A for a hair dryer for 10 min, the BB will drop about 16Ah, while the Trojans may lose double that or more in capacity, so if that kind of use is expected a pair of LFP batteries will outperform what you have now - and charge back up faster too!Steve
Re: Lithium battery install Reply #5 – January 21, 2023, 12:09:34 pm Quote from: colddog - January 21, 2023, 10:18:42 amFor my use the Lions are fine. My last set of lead acid batteries lasted 10 years. That should tell you how we use the battery power. I live in the PNW. I know rain. (Smile). I have never seen a drop moisture inside my battery compartment. Of course time will tell. Have no fear if this experiment fails I'll be more then happy to share with you all. (Smile) mother always said all lessons cost money. glenI agree Will's conclusions are his own - important to filter the info and make your own decisions. What is critical with any of the LFP battery hookups is to keep a balanced hookup. I.e., with 12V batteries in parallel, all inter-battery cabling should be equal length and gauge, with positive output taken from one end of the string, negative from the other end. This keeps the batteries balanced during charge and discharge, critical for lithiums, but not so critical for lead-acid chemistry. If your installer did not do this, it is worth having him redo it properlySteve
Re: Lithium battery install Reply #6 – January 21, 2023, 12:43:57 pm “ Can you put 4 of the BB in the battery compartment and the storage under the fridge?”That’s an interesting question. Are you asking if you can fit 4 BB’s in each location or do you wonder about fitting two BB’s in each location? When AM Solar asked me where I wanted to place my 5 BB batteries I choose to have them placed under the rear dinette seat of our RB. We had been using the space to store shoes and such. The other dinette seat storage had books and other waste of spacer items. We placed the inverter and such in this area. For me the space now serves a much better purpose. It was easy to eliminate all the clutter under both seats to fit all our lithium upgrade components. All the cables are of the proper length and all is good.Here’s a pic of our battery installation as posted in previous threads.Kent 3 Likes
Re: Lithium battery install Reply #7 – January 21, 2023, 03:16:40 pm Quote from: rbkarrow - January 21, 2023, 03:51:14 amCan you put 4 of the BB in the battery compartment and the storage under the fridge? Sure, four GC2-size lithium batteries will fit fine, the battery compartment butts up to the cabinet under the refrigerator, in an MB.To make it even easier, remove as much of the plastic battery box as needed, lithiums do not need to be vented.This location eases the installation since none of the Factory wiring needs to be moved or extended.Larry
Re: Lithium battery install Reply #8 – January 21, 2023, 03:22:07 pm Quote from: colddog - January 20, 2023, 01:48:35 pmWell did the deed at the Q. Use Solar Bill. Spent the day and night there. Make sure to seal and insulate the battery compartment door to extend the operational temperature range of the batteries.Lithium batteries don't like to be too hot or too cold, keep them in the Goldilocks zone.Larry 3 Likes
Re: Lithium battery install Reply #9 – January 22, 2023, 02:41:45 pm Steve wrote: "all inter-battery cabling should be equal length and gauge,"This is true, however this applies from one battery (say #1) to the next (#2). But from battery #2 to #3 those cables can be a different length as long as those two (+ & -) are equal to each other. Same applies to the next set of + & - cables from battery #3 and #4. They have to be the same length to each other but not necessarily the lengths between the other batteries in the set. This can continue throughout the entire set of batteries. I received this instruction from the techs at BattleBorn. 1 Likes
Re: Lithium battery install Reply #10 – January 22, 2023, 05:19:43 pm Quote from: Mike Coachman - January 22, 2023, 02:41:45 pmThis is true, however this applies from one battery (say #1) to the next (#2). But from battery #2 to #3 those cables can be a different length as long as those two (+ & -) are equal to each other.True - I over-simplified.Steve
Re: Lithium battery install Reply #11 – January 23, 2023, 03:20:37 pm Thank you all. This group is one of my favorites. Always respectful and good information. (Smile) seems we all act like adults most of the time....,glen 1 Likes
Re: Lithium battery install Reply #12 – January 23, 2023, 11:09:26 pm ADULTS, YOU'RE TAKING ALL THE FUN OUT OF THE AIR.I'm thinking that I am an eccentric old fart that indulges in uncharacteristic shenanigans when the idea strikes. I am also looked at with disdain by my peers. But they just got old and forgot what fun you can have by making trouble. Today I will be good, but I have been banned permanently by NextDoor.com, so that gives you an idea. Banned twice before permanent. They are fuddy duddies and no fun.
Re: Lithium battery install Reply #13 – January 24, 2023, 10:37:26 am If you will note and I quote 'most of the time,'......My idea of most of the time is maybe more flexible then most.glen 1 Likes
Re: Lithium battery install Reply #14 – February 19, 2023, 04:38:20 pm Kent,I was looking at the photo of your battery installation, I believe under the front dinette seat. Looks like excellent work.AM Solar managed to get a fair number of components in there along with the batteries - what all is in there?I am nursing the idea of a solar upgrade myself. I reached out to an online RV solar supplier/design consultant, with the idea of getting a design from them, and doing my own installation. They had me do a solar audit to determine my needs, and responded with a quote for all of the equipment along with the design (includes a complete wiring diagram). Of course some of the things they are pushing are really expensive. It's Victron Energy all the way, including batteries: they've proposed three Victron Smart Lithium 12.8v 200ah batteries with a Victron Lynx Smart BMS, totaling a whopping $7259! Really nice, extremely reliable, quite small (each is 9.3" H x 12.6" W x 6" D), but I cannot possibly justify that! I'll be happy with three SOKs, each with built-in BMS and heat, for around $3K. Even then, their total will come to over $8K, including the design docs ($385). They are called "RV Solar Connections" based in Lakewood, CO. Has anyone used them?Best Regards,Tim
Re: Lithium battery install Reply #15 – February 19, 2023, 11:53:00 pm Quote from: T&F - February 19, 2023, 04:38:20 pm" they've proposed three Victron Smart Lithium 12.8v 200ah batteries with a Victron Lynx Smart BMS, totaling a whopping $7259! Really nice, extremely reliable, quite small (each is 9.3" H x 12.6" W x 6" D), "A minor correction: the Victron12.8 200AH battery is much bigger at 8.4" x 20.8" x 10.8". I'm surprised at the weight (46 lbs), since my Renogy 12.8 200AH battery weighs 60 lbs and is nearly identical in size.
Re: Lithium battery install Reply #16 – February 20, 2023, 07:23:34 am Quote from: Kent Heckethorn - January 21, 2023, 12:43:57 pm“ Can you put 4 of the BB in the battery compartment and the storage under the fridge?”That’s an interesting question. Are you asking if you can fit 4 BB’s in each location or do you wonder about fitting two BB’s in each location? When AM Solar asked me where I wanted to place my 5 BB batteries I choose to have them placed under the rear dinette seat of our RB. We had been using the space to store shoes and such. The other dinette seat storage had books and other waste of spacer items. We placed the inverter and such in this area. For me the space now serves a much better purpose. It was easy to eliminate all the clutter under both seats to fit all our lithium upgrade components. All the cables are of the proper length and all is good.Here’s a pic of our battery installation as posted in previous threads.KentVery impressive Kent!! Ron Sarzynski
Re: Lithium battery install Reply #17 – February 20, 2023, 10:30:50 am Eric,Here is a link to the Victron Smart Lithium battery I was looking at:Victron Energy BAT512120610 Smart Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery 12.8 Volt...The dimensions I quoted seem to match this - perhaps this is the next generation? It does weigh 48.5 lbs.Tim
Re: Lithium battery install Reply #18 – February 20, 2023, 01:26:22 pm Hi folks,Here is the breakdown of all AM Solar did. Pics are included to show individual components. The summary of all AM did is included. Some things you won’t see are the 230 watt suitcase panels (stored in the overhead sleeper) and the suitcase panel quick connect I had installed in the old external battery bay. AM did a lot of upgrading to my old 200 watt system with the OEM AGM batteries LD installed as well as replacing the monitor panel on the wall. At least 1/2 the cost of everything was for labor (better them than me). This allowed me a week to explore the coast. Beautiful up there. Actually took time to take Lazy Bones’ advice and visited the Tillamook facility. Very impressive. Actual cost was about $18,000 minus a few hundred for paying with cash (personal check). Then there was a 27% tax rebate for adding Solar to my second home (LD). Certainly wasn’t inexpensive but I have no regrets and the knowledge that I won’t be trying to keep my old AGM batteries charged is money in the bank for me.Here are pics of everything I had included. Most fits under the rear and front dinette seats.Enjoy,Kent 4 Likes
Re: Lithium battery install Reply #19 – February 21, 2023, 03:00:36 am VERY nice looking setup Kent. AM Solar is a top notch outfit.Lotsa bucks, but you'll have many years to enjoy a really superb maxed out setupI could have used your setup for my wife's voracious consumption of amps. She had COPD. Like one video said, I was always trying to catch up on my battery charge as AGMs don't charge quickly like lithium. My mid-bath has 4 high quality AGMs with big honking wires like you have connecting your batteries. Resistance??? What resistance??? A 100 watt inverter fed the rear outlets only. All worked fine except I was always trying to catch up on my battery charge. I would take day trips in the LD to charge up the batteries and/or running the generator overtime to catch up. My wife's oxygen concentrator was a real hog when it came to amps. She had it on most of the time. I think with our amp-eater setup we could have breezed thru our problems with your solar panels and your battery capacities.I know you are going to have a LOT of enjoyment with your electrical setup and you are not going to worry about using up your battery capacity. Don't park under the trees as I was prone to do cuz it was always prettier.
Re: Lithium battery install Reply #20 – February 21, 2023, 03:23:35 am Don't Waste Your Money On Batteries - The Shocking Truth I Discovered When Testing RV Batterieshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy3hga_P5YYHe found the lithium batteries were cheaper per watt than the AGMs. OMG that's not the expectation that anyone would think was going to happen. Lithium is cheaper per watt than the AGMs. WHOA, that is counter-intuitive, but really good to know for the future replacement of our batteries. I wish I was in the process of replacing my batteries!! But I'm not, plus I'm going to sell my LD in the future after I do some fixup
Re: Lithium battery install Reply #21 – February 21, 2023, 09:58:30 am <smile> oh 'bout five or six years ago I did a study of lead acid vs lithium cost per cycle. If I 'member correctly wet lead acid was 7 or 8 cents per cycle and lithium was 9 cents per cycle. Lithium batteries have been cheaper in the long run than lead acid for years. It's always been the upfront cost that gives us folks a tad of heartburn.glen 1 Likes
Re: Lithium battery install Reply #22 – February 21, 2023, 11:59:18 am The only solid advantage of AGMs over flooded-cell is the ability to mount them in any orientation and interior of the rig. They are still 'dumb' batteries, which means without paying attention to their charging and discharging needs, they can be easily and irreparably damaged. In most cases, they are a poor choice compared to good flooded-cell batteries with maintenance enhancements such as a Pro-Fill system. LFP batteries with a sophisticated BMS are 'smart' and require little or no owner attention in use, and with the many advantages and longevity the chemistry offers.An exception: some RV manufacturers (no names) have installed the LFP batteries in coaches that are highly electrified - eg compressor fridge, convection microwave, induction stovetop, electric coffeemaker, etc, all inverter driven. They have combined this with under-rated solar and battery support, causing frequent system shut-downs from discharged batteries. Unlike lead-acid 'dumb' batteries, which will have a drastic voltage drop below 50% charge - causing dim lighting, inverter shutdown, etc at 11V or so, the BMS of LPF batteries simply shut the battery down when charge level is too low. 'Smart' charging systems will see 0 Volts on the batteries and a low-impedance load from appliances, and may not deliver charge to the batteries, requiring an external jump source to recover. This is my observation and a surmised conclusion as to the reason, but the 'solution' is empirical...Steve
Re: Lithium battery install Reply #23 – February 21, 2023, 12:45:33 pm Hi Glen, Yes the up-front costs can be intimidating, for just buying the motorhome, but most of us here have done that already. The ease of use, actual watts delivered with essentially even voltage delivery, and with a good battery monitor to really know how much power is left, is great. I did take note of your comment years ago, that the overall cost was lower, and is even better now with more LiFePO4 batteries available. In case of a full discharge situation, the chassis battery (with engine running) can be the 'wake up' source. My 350 watt of solar should do that also. (SB3000i). My battery compartment picture shows the slides removed, with a new floor. The S.O.K. 206's can have the end handle removed (doesn't void the warranty). I removed the handle so they would sit flat. Spacer against the sides and you can see the hole in the middle where the center spacer goes. Also the location of the temperature sensor to monitor whether the heater blanket should be enabled, is against the door. The door louvers are sealed, and there is insulation on the door. Heater couldn't go under the batteries, but is on their bottom side against the door. The battery terminals go through the back of the battery box into that slanted space under the 'TK floorplan vanity cabinet. That cabinet floor is now easily removed. (Well you have to empty out the cabinet to do that). Two SOK's gives me 400 A hours. The second picture shows the 100A breakers for each battery, the 200 A fuse for the inverter, 100 A breaker for the charging line from the engine alternator, and some other items. The distribution buss bars, and Smart shunt for the BalMar meter aren't visible in the picture. Also not visible is the easily accessed from the inside of the motorhome, switch to shut off bat #1, Bat #2, Both off, or Both on. Both on (1+2) is the normal position of that switch. RonB
Re: Lithium battery install Reply #24 – February 21, 2023, 12:48:09 pm Quote from: T&F - February 19, 2023, 04:38:20 pmI am nursing the idea of a solar upgrade myself. I reached out to an online RV solar supplier/design consultant, with the idea of getting a design from them, and doing my own installation. I'll be happy with three SOKs, each with built-in BMS and heat, for around $3K. Even then, their total will come to over $8K, including the design docs ($385). They are called "RV Solar Connections" based in Lakewood, CO. Has anyone used them?I would assume that you need more power to run your electric compressor ice chest, among other things, in cloudy weather or when under heavy shade. Running our compressor ice chest was why we switched to lithium and added more solar.There is a lot of room available under the refrigerator for more batteries. Remove the plastic battery box for even more space.By keeping the batteries all in the same area as the Factory does, it eliminates a lot of modifications needed when moving the batteries to another location, this was and is my favorite area in MBs to add batteries. Are you planning on adding a large inverter? Lithium batteries work great with an inverter, keeping the input voltage higher than AGMs. Lithium batteries are lightweight, adding more under the refrigerator will not adversely affect weight balance.Are you planning a solar upgrade? Solar is getting cheaper all the time, I recently bought a 100-watt Renergy panel for $85 to replace the original 85-watt panel. Your rig should have the Blue Sky 3000i solar controller and in our LD, it handles 560 watts of solar without issues. You should be able to mount more panels to feed the large lithium battery pack.When adding more solar, the cabling from the roof to the solar controller should be upsized to larger wires to keep voltage drop to a minimum. Mid-Baths have a roof penetration and junction box near the solar controller so it's not too difficult to increase the wire size.Things to add, if not already present, are a battery capacity monitor, a battery switch, a large inline catastrophe fuse and a way of charging the battery from the LD's engine alternator, a DC-to-DC charger will work fine. Your 3000i solar controller is compatible with lithium, once adjusted to the recommended setting.Your inverter may or may not be compatible, I found that Battleborn had very knowledgeable techs that were available the two times I called for advice. They provided information sheets for setting the controller. You may want to switch to a higher capacity charger to take advantage of lithium to absorb charge amounts of charging current without issues, it's amazing how quickly they can recharge if the current is available.If you decide to do it yourself, there is quite a bit of experience available from forum members who have done this themselves, doing it yourself provides a deep knowledge of how your rig is wired, a great help if future troubleshooting is needed, you will know where things are located and how they work. It can also save you quite a bit of money.Say hi to Florence. It's been a long time since we have run into the two of you.Larry
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