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New Lithium Batteries - What Could Go Wrong?
Reading a recent post about replacing house batteries with Lithium batteries has opened up the proverbial "can of worms" for me and now I have many questions that I hope will wait until I return to New Mexico. 

When I was in Quartzsite, I though my inverter had failed but it has just tripped and shut off.  (The mobile RV tech that came out said I needed a new inverter.  I went to the "big tent" at the RV show I purchased two Lifeline LL-12V100-27 Lithium Iron Phosphate Batteries.  Since  I actually thought my inverter was fried I was asking about a new one.  The salesperson said someone had given him a brand new Renogy pure sine wave 2,000 watt inverter and if bought two new batteries from him then he'd give me the inverter for free.

So I did. 

I had a mobile installer in Quartzsite install the new batteries (which just fit) in the previous battery bank.  (The batteries were at least five years old and swelling slightly.)  When I return home to Las Cruces, I'm going to follow Ron B's advice and have them reinstalled in the space below the refrigerator (OMG, where will I put all my SHOES?)

It turns out my COTEK 1500 watt pure sign wave inverter was just tripped and is still working fine, so I have the Renogy inverter as an eventual backup.  The RV tech changed the setting on my Zamp Solar Controller (ZS-30A/ZS-40A) to the AGM setting.  What I'm concerned about is my CONVERTER .  I'm plugged into electricity at an RV park, but I don't hear the fan hum that I usually hear every so often.  The model book says it's an WFCO but covers several models (WF-9835, WF-9845, WF-9855, WF-9865, WF-9875).

I drove from Quartzsite to Puerto Penasco with no problems, but now I'm concerned about damaging the alternator on my RV.  I'll certainly have someone install a new converter when I get back to Las Cruces (as well as upgrade from my two Renogy 100 watt panels).

Now, I'm wondering if I need to do something (like buy an isolater) before I travel back home.  I actually drove from Quartzsite to Puerto Penasco (where I am now) with no problems.  Since I'm on the subject I found out that my current inverter is an "inverter/charger" but the freebie one I got from Renogy is just a standard inverter. 

Owning an RV is akin to understanding rocket science - which I'm definitely lacking in knowledge.
Cheryl (a.k.a. Desert Diva)
1998 Lazy Daze (26.5 mid-bath)
2002 Honda CR-V
Re: New Lithium Batteries - What Could Go Wrong?
Reply #1 –
???
Cheryl (a.k.a. Desert Diva)
1998 Lazy Daze (26.5 mid-bath)
2002 Honda CR-V
Re: New Lithium Batteries - What Could Go Wrong?
Reply #2 –
Hi Cheryl;  The part numbers of the WFCO converters, those two last numbers refer to how many amps they can provide at maximum charging current.  From 35 amps, in 10 Amp steps up to 75 amps. Each step up involves higher rated components to handle the extra current.
    Lithium batteries are more efficient at charging, so once fully charged your converter essentially loafs along, only providing house lighting etc. So the converter won't need to have its fan on, so it will stay off until called upon to provide more current (which generates waste heat in internal components of the converter).
    Setting the solar controller to 'AGM' status?  AGM are lead acid as are the wetter lead acid batteries that need water added routinely. I don't see how that would affect charging Lithium batteries. Tell us what LiF batteries you got please, Sort of a census on my part.
    You are probably ok on not damaging the alternator on your chassis.  Wiring now considered inadequate, but good for 1998, will limit current inflow to the LiF batteries. Don't worry too much about that.
   Definitely a good time to add some solar, (It's always a good time to add solar), but it can wait.  Most importantly you need better information about what the LiF batteries state of charge are, and how close to 'empty' they are. Your solar voltmeter should be maxed out at about 14,6 volts, if the LiF are fully charged.
    Lastly, you can leave the batteries in the outside compartments, preserving your 'shoe' space if you can avoid overnight below 32 degree weather, where the batteries themselves may get down below freezing.    RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: New Lithium Batteries - What Could Go Wrong?
Reply #3 –
Thanks for replying Ron - I always seems to be able to count on you for good information...

Quote from: RonB  - 
The part numbers of the WFCO converters, those two last numbers refer to how many amps they can provide at maximum charging current.  From 35 amps, in 10 Amp steps up to 75 amps. Each step up involves higher rated components to handle the extra current.

Thanks for the explanation - now it makes sense to me.

Lithium batteries are more efficient at charging, so once fully charged your converter essentially loafs along, only providing house lighting etc. So the converter won't need to have its fan on, so it will stay off until called upon to provide more current (which generates waste heat in internal components of the converter).

OK, my energy requirements are pretty minimal when I dry camp as I only run the lights (which have all been switched to LED) and play my XM radio which has a 12-volt power outlet.  Sometimes,  I watch a DVD or mirror Hulu or Netflix to my Samsung TV from my phone. 

Setting the solar controller to 'AGM' status?  AGM are lead acid as are the wetter lead acid batteries that need water added routinely. I don't see how that would affect charging Lithium batteries. Tell us what LiF batteries you got please, Sort of a census on my part.

My Zamp solar controller is about seven years old.  I assume newer solar controllers have a setting for LiF batteries.  Since I'm clueless I just deferred to the mobile tech.  There was a company called "Battery Guys" at the big tent in Quartzsite.  The two batteries I purchased (with the new Renogy pure sine wave 2,000 watt inverter thrown in) were $749/each as a "show special."  The new batteries are made by Lifeline.

Lifeline LL-12V100-27 Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery

You are probably ok on not damaging the alternator on your chassis.  Wiring now considered inadequate, but good for 1998, will limit current inflow to the LiF batteries. Don't worry too much about that.

*Whew*  That's what I wanted to hear...

Definitely a good time to add some solar, (It's always a good time to add solar), but it can wait.  Most importantly you need better information about what the LiF batteries state of charge are, and how close to 'empty' they are. Your solar voltmeter should be maxed out at about 14,6 volts, if the LiF are fully charged.

Since I only have two 100 watt panels from 2015 or so I do plan to upgrade when I return to Las Cruces.  Since I've bought the batteries and they reached a full charge they never go below 97% as I'm plugged into electricity at the moment. 

There's an app on my phone called "Smart-Bat" that works with Bluetooth.  I can check the batteries from there.  The photos below are the reading screenshots that I just took with my phone. 


Lastly, you can leave the batteries in the outside compartments, preserving your 'shoe' space if you can avoid overnight below 32 degree weather, where the batteries themselves may get down below freezing.

Sometimes it gets in the teens in the winter in Las Cruces, so it's probably best for me to have them relocated and cut down on the amount of shoes I take with me...   ;)

Thanks again for your help!
Cheryl


Cheryl (a.k.a. Desert Diva)
1998 Lazy Daze (26.5 mid-bath)
2002 Honda CR-V
Re: New Lithium Batteries - What Could Go Wrong?
Reply #4 –
Battle Born Lithium Battery have a heat solution built in them, maybe other Lithium Batteries also include a BMS heat solution?
 
       Karen~Liam
         98 ~ MB
           NinA
1998 ~ MB  WanderDaze
previously a 1984 Winnebago itaska- The Road Warrior, before that several VW Buses and before that a 1965 Chrysler Convertible Newport or our 1969 Chrysler La Barron with an ice box and a couple sleeping bags
Re: New Lithium Batteries - What Could Go Wrong?
Reply #5 –
nerd alert>>>>>

The whole conversation over temperature and Lithium batteries is an interesting one.   Enclosed is a science paper discussing the issue. 
I think I can summarize it without to much damage <smile>....
In a word it depends.   A well made Lithium battery (read expensive) will be formulated  to survive both cold and hot outside temperatures.  I.E. the mix of internal chemistry is the key. 

I guessing all those electric cars that are driving all over the USA are not having many issues with temperature fails. 

Temperature effect and thermal impact in lithium-ion batteries: A review -...

glen






personal fine art photo stuff
TF Mack | Flickr
It's all good .......
2014 Twin King
Re: New Lithium Batteries - What Could Go Wrong?
Reply #6 –
The basics are: no charging below freezing, and no discharging above about 135° F. In general, any LiFePO4 battery will be damaged if charged at normal rates when the battery temperature is at or below freezing. (They can be trickle-charged at extremely low rates even below freezing, but I don't know of any charging systems that are equipped to do this.) A few LiFePO4 batteries are available with heaters that keep them from getting too cold, thus allowing them to be charged safely even when below freezing. But the majority don't have heaters.

Most LiFePO4 batteries with built-in BMSs (battery management systems) do offer some protection against temperature extremes. For example, here's what the Battle Born manual says:

--------------------
High voltage: > 14.7V
If an individual cell voltage exceeds a prescribed threshold during charging, the BMS will prevent a charge current from continuing. Discharge is always allowed under this condition.
Low voltage: < 10V
If an individual cell falls below a prescribed threshold during discharge, the BMS will prevent further discharge. Although the battery is in “low-voltage disconnect” mode, it will still allow a charging current. (Note: many chargers must detect a voltage over 10v to send a charge to the battery).
High temperature: > 135F
The BMS will not allow a charging or discharging current.
Low temperature: < 25F
The BMS will not allow a charging current.
--------------------

Now, how they get away with allowing charging down to 25° F, I don't know. The BMS in my Lithionics batteries cuts off charging at 32° F, which is what most sources recommend. Battle Born's "Don't worry, just drop it in and it'll work fine" sales pitch may have something to do with that. Or perhaps they have some kind of current-limiting system that kicks in at low temperatures...? Somehow I doubt that.

But here's something important for owners of Renogy LiFePO4 batteries: Renogy's owner's manual says that their BMS protects against high temperatures, but it does NOT mention anything about the BMS preventing charging at low temperatures. The sole mention of low temperatures is this sentence: "Safe Charging consists of temperatures between 32° F and 113° F." Translation: it's up to you to make sure you don't charge the battery if it's below freezing, because the Renogy BMS will not protect you.

In short, it's not safe to assume that a LiFePO4 battery's built-in BMS will protect against charging at sub-freezing temperatures. It may or may not. Read the manual carefully.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: New Lithium Batteries - What Could Go Wrong?
Reply #7 –
From Battle Born Batteries website - "Heated BB10012 Battery is Now Available!
Battle Born Batteries  November 12, 2020  20 Comments"


    Karen~Liam
      98 ~ MB
        NinA
1998 ~ MB  WanderDaze
previously a 1984 Winnebago itaska- The Road Warrior, before that several VW Buses and before that a 1965 Chrysler Convertible Newport or our 1969 Chrysler La Barron with an ice box and a couple sleeping bags
Re: New Lithium Batteries - What Could Go Wrong?
Reply #8 –
Battleborn Batteries CEO offers some perspective on the issue of charging at low temperatures.  This might explain why their low temp cutoff is 25F rather than 32.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywn-vBjKblI

I will continue to shut off my panels before temps approach freezing, but will be less inclined to panic should I miss by a couple  degrees.

Steve
2015 TK
Re: New Lithium Batteries - What Could Go Wrong?
Reply #9 –
I believe that Will Prouse did that interview over two years ago.  Some things have changed with Lithium Batteries in two years.

       Karen~Liam
         98 ~MB
           NinA
1998 ~ MB  WanderDaze
previously a 1984 Winnebago itaska- The Road Warrior, before that several VW Buses and before that a 1965 Chrysler Convertible Newport or our 1969 Chrysler La Barron with an ice box and a couple sleeping bags
Re: New Lithium Batteries - What Could Go Wrong?
Reply #10 –
> I believe that Will Prouse did that interview over two years ago.  Some things have changed with Lithium Batteries in two years.

Anything that would contradict what was stated in this video?

Steve
2015 TK
Re: New Lithium Batteries - What Could Go Wrong?
Reply #11 –
Quote from: Andy Baird  - 
But here's something important for owners of Renogy LiFePO4 batteries: Renogy's owner's manual says that their BMS protects against high temperatures, but it does NOT mention anything about the BMS preventing charging at low temperatures. The sole mention of low temperatures is this sentence: "Safe Charging consists of temperatures between 32° F and 113° F." Translation: it's up to you to make sure you don't charge the battery if it's below freezing, because the Renogy BMS will not protect you.
Renogy needs to update the reference you used, because the Renogy 12V 200AH w/Bluetooth battery I have does have a low temperature charging cutout, and I've had it shut off charging when the unheated motorhome became too cold. From the website's description:

【Low Temperature Protection Function】 The lithium battery has low temperature charging and discharging protection function. When the temperature is below 0℃, it will stop charging. When the temperature is below -20℃, it will stop discharging.

12V 200Ah Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery w/ Bluetooth | Renogy

The low temperature cutoff was one reason I bought their battery, as I initially planned to have it mounted in an outside bin.

2005 Jayco 24SS
Re: New Lithium Batteries - What Could Go Wrong?
Reply #12 –
"Renogy needs to update the reference you used, because the Renogy 12V 200AH w/Bluetooth battery I have does have a low temperature charging cutout"

Oh, good. So their manual is just out of date... or maybe they've always had that feature and just didn't include it in the manual. Anyway, I'm glad they have it.

I have my Lithionics batteries under my bed, and since I'm full-timing, the temperature never gets as low as 32° F. The Lithionics app records minimum and maximum temperatures, and so far those have been 55° and 77° respectively, so it looks as if I'm not in danger from low temps. What it will be like in summer remains to be seen, but I can't imagine ever letting this rig get up to 135°! I'd die before the batteries did.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: New Lithium Batteries - What Could Go Wrong?
Reply #13 –
"This might explain why their low temp cutoff is 25F rather than 32."

I watched that interview a while back, and was a little uncomfortable with the Battle Born CEO's casual approach. That said, I had no problems with the 100 amp-hour Battle Born batteries I had initially installed in this rig--aside from the fact that with no Bluetooth, I couldn't check their internal temperature, cell balance, etc.--but I'm not sorry to have upgraded to 130 Ah Lithionics batteries, which provide detailed information via Bluetooth.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: New Lithium Batteries - What Could Go Wrong?
Reply #14 –
I'm curious, Andy.  Why did you switch from the Battle Borns?  Was it entirely about Lithionic's extra monitoring features?

Steve
2015 TK
Re: New Lithium Batteries - What Could Go Wrong?
Reply #15 –
Fair question. There were a few reasons. First, the Lithionics batteries give me 30% more capacity (130 Ah vs. 100 Ah) in about the same space. That's a big deal.

Second, as you mentioned, they provide detailed information via Bluetooth. I was used to that from having used Victron "Smart Lithium" batteries, and I missed it.

Third, the Lithionics batteries are better built inside. This video, while based on an interview with Lithionics staff and hence biased in their favor, shows graphically the difference in construction between the two brands.

Fourth, Battle Born's "flag" terminals make it difficult or impossible to run jumpers flat across the tops of the batteries, which is an important consideration when installing in a limited space. They have to either loop out to the side, or loop up and over. Lithionics, like most other battery makers, uses threaded holes that let you run cables flush across the tops of the batteries. Thus the jumpers are shorter (for less voltage drop) and take up less space.

Fifth, the Lithionics batteries have a "reserve power" feature: the BMS cuts off draining (but not charging) when the battery is down to 10% of charge, but in an emergency you can "restart" it by pushing a button on top--long enough to turn on some lights and locate your flashlight, say. :-)

Sixth, that button has another function: it can turn the battery on or off. That meant when installing my Lithionics batteries, I was able to do it with them "dead," so there were no sparks as I connected the wiring and double-checked everything. When I was sure I had it the way I wanted it, then[/] I turned them on by pushing the buttons. That was nice.

Again, I want to emphasize that I had no trouble with my Battle Borns during the year I had them. Lots of people use them, and I haven't seen any complaints. And the Lithionics batteries are twice as expensive, so they're not a popular choice. I'm not trying to convince anybody to buy them. But for me, they were better in enough ways that the extra cost was worth it to me.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: New Lithium Batteries - What Could Go Wrong?
Reply #16 –
My 5 Battle Born 100 aH batts May well last another 10 to 20 years. Long enough for me. Had AGM offered Lithionics, I may have purchased them.

Battery technology changes so quickly it’s hard to fathom. Best advice? Good question. Wait and see? Hard to say.

Interesting topic-Battery upgrades and such. Watched the video Andy posted and found it very interesting. Amazing stuff.

Kent
2015 27' RB "MissB.Haven"
Re: New Lithium Batteries - What Could Go Wrong?
Reply #17 –
I want to add a couple of things to what I said earlier. First, having Bluetooth is not just important because it lets you monitor what’s going on inside the battery. A battery with a built-in BMS contains a small computer. Computers use software, and software sometimes needs to be updated to correct bugs or add features. I have updated the BMS software in Victron batteries a number of times. Battle Born batteries, lacking Bluetooth, have no way to update their software.

Second, I have read that Battle Born is working on a new model of their battery which will have Bluetooth, so at some point this will no longer be the case. But it’s true for their batteries built and sold up to now (mid-March of 2022).
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: New Lithium Batteries - What Could Go Wrong?
Reply #18 –
By the way, in case anybody's interested... I was curious about how much power an in-battery heating system uses. While keeping your LiFePO4 battery from getting too cold to safely charge is a good idea, doing it with the battery's own stored power raises questions. So I looked up the data on the heated battery Battle Born sells, which costs $150 more than their standard 100 amp-hour battery. Here's what they say:

The internal heating function of your battery consumes about 1.8 amps of power. At 0° F (-17.7° C) and no insulation, the heater function will be on about 30 percent of the time. With no external loads and no external charging, this will give your roughly 185 hours of heating capability before your battery will go into low voltage disconnect.

So if your rig were in storage in a cold climate, and not being charged, the battery could drain itself in a little more than a week. That's not to say this is a bad feature. When the rig was in use, the heating element might draw twenty amp-hours overnight, which would probably be acceptable. And of course, if you had the battery mounted indoors, the heating element would probably rarely be needed. But in that storage situation I mentioned, you'd want to be very sure to disable the battery heater (they supply wire and an external switch) and use a battery cutoff switch to disconnect all loads.

Battle Born also sells a separate heat pad kit that wraps around one of their unheated batteries. That pad draws 2.5 amps, so it would use closer to thirty amp-hours overnight in cold temperatures.

Of course all these numbers are estimates that depend upon how cold it is, for how long, and where you have the battery mounted--inside, or in an outside compartment. And other manufacturers who offer heated batteries may differ. But at least now I have a ballpark idea of what's involved. As long as it can be disabled at will, it sounds like a feature that might be worth having if one's batteries are mounted in an outside compartment and cold-weather camping is on the agenda. Whether it's worth an extra $150 per battery is another question. In my case, since the batteries under my bed have never gone below 55° F, it isn't necessary.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: New Lithium Batteries - What Could Go Wrong?
Reply #19 –

I would suggest to use a wireless thermometer to monitor the temperature of the LiFePO4 batteries placed inside the RV during the storage period while the battery assembly remains disconnected. When RV is taking out of storage, check the battery temperature before connect, then use an external heater to heat the battery to a safe temperature before charging. I would not pay extra $ for the internal heaters.

Amazon.com: ThermoPro Indoor Outdoor Thermometer Wireless TP200B, Thermometer...

As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
2004 Mid Bath,
2007 Jeep Liberty Towed
Re: New Lithium Batteries - What Could Go Wrong?
Reply #20 –
Good idea. Best of all would be to get one that has an alarm that can be set to sound if the temperature goes too low.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: New Lithium Batteries - What Could Go Wrong?
Reply #21 –
It is my understanding that if a rig with Lithium batteries is being stored they are best disconnected at a Full State Of Charge (from the data I’ve read).

Lithium batteries loose little charge over an extended period of hibernation. Even at freezing temperatures, if there is no charge going in during this time there is nothing to worry about.

Just bring their temp up before initiating a charge cycle.

No harm…no foul.

Kent
2015 27' RB "MissB.Haven"
Re: New Lithium Batteries - What Could Go Wrong?
Reply #22 –
For my Renogy 12V 200AH BT battery, it should be charged to 30%-50% for storage, with charging to those values every3-6 months. The other lithium batteries (computer, cell phone, 12V 1AH) I have typically state about 50%.
2005 Jayco 24SS
Re: New Lithium Batteries - What Could Go Wrong?
Reply #23 –
I agree with Eric.

It's true that Battle Born's data sheet on winterizing recommends "letting them sit with a full charge, or at least a 50% charge minimum." But I don't completely trust Battle Born's technical advice. There's a little too much "Don't worry, be happy" for my comfort level.

Everything else I've ever read says to store lithium batteries of any type--whether lithium polymer, as used in computers and phones, or LiFePO4--at about half charge. I confirmed this with Lithionics tech support, and their manual says this:

If the battery needs to be stored for > 3 months the voltage should be 13.2V (50% state-of-charge)... Additionally, the battery needs at least one charge & discharge cycle every six months.

That's why lithium batteries are warehoused and shipped half charged, and must be given an initial full charge before use. E.g., Victron's Smart Lithium battery manual says, "The batteries are approximately 50% charged when shipped." That's standard practice even for Battle Born, as I recall.

Maybe nothing terrible will happen if you follow Battle Born's advice and store these batteries fully charged. But since what they recommend goes contrary to the rest of the industry, I'm inclined not to take their word on this.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: New Lithium Batteries - What Could Go Wrong?
Reply #24 –
I’ve had the rig plugged in 24/7 after allowing the solar array to keep up with the charging cycles. Running the fridge off of the 5 battle Borns daily drew the batts down about 35% daily (if I remember correctly). They would be fully charged by noon or so every day.

I felt that I was wasting life cycles so I plugged in 24/7 since then. Getting in touch with AM Solar tech staff, I was assured that staying plugged into shore power 24/7 was fine on the Battle Borns. So taking their advice, I’ve been doing so for about a year now.

Cycling to  50% and allowing the solar array to recharge every six months seems prudent so I unplugged this morning and will allow the fridge to draw down the batts SOC for a couple of days then plug back in. Can’t hurt to put the system through its paces if it’ll help the batteries.

And so it goes.

Kent
2015 27' RB "MissB.Haven"