Replacement coach batteries March 01, 2022, 11:15:29 am Hello Fellow LD'ers,I have a question on coach batteries. We have a 2000 26.5 RB. One of the previous owners upgraded the solar, controllers and batteries a while back. There are 2 solar panels on top, a Prosine 2000 controller and 4ea flooded lead acid 6 Volt 75amp batteries. the controller was mounted inside compartment and batteries are mounted under dining table seat next to couches.My problem is that due to unforeseen medical emergencies I was not able to tend to the LD as I should have. The batteries are from 2017 and have completely died. I need to replace them. We are planning to be fulltime RV'ers for the next few years, staying in parks and boondocking across the countryMy concern is their location under the dinning seat in the RV. There is a vented compartment door to outside of RV on driver's side. Is this a safe setup regarding batteries off gassing during charging?Should I be upgrading to AGM, Lithium is price prohibitive upgrade right now.Also, should I be looking at higher amp hour batteries?I fairly new to this and looking to make sound decisions based on info and future uses.Thanks In AdvanceGeorge 2 Likes
Re: Replacement coach batteries Reply #1 – March 01, 2022, 01:24:03 pm Do plan on keeping our LD for several years?With the power needs of a Prosine 2000 watt inverter, I would install a minimum of two 100-amp lithium batteries and possibly one or two or more, located under the bench seat. Lithium batteries are safe to have inside, they do not need to be ventilated since they do not outgas. At this point in time, flooded lead-acid batteries are now obsolete.Do you have sufficient solar to keep batteries charged while boondocking? Solar is much cheaper than it once was.Larry
Re: Replacement coach batteries Reply #2 – March 01, 2022, 01:40:36 pm Quote from: Larry W - March 01, 2022, 01:24:03 pmAt this point in time, flooded lead-acid batteries are now obsolete.Lead acid is substantially cheaper. If Lithium is price prohibitive, Costco or Sams club for 4 more 6v batteries would get you back to where you were.Lead-acid batteries should not be inside the coach without proper venting, however.My thought process would go like this.If I can get by with 2 in the vented compartment and want the lowest cost - lead acid. If I want 4 and just can't handle the price of lithium - agmIf you can swing 2 Lithium batteries (which give the same capacity as 4 lead acid or AGMS) - 2 lithium If you want something that you will be happy with for a good long while fulltiming - 4 Lithium and more solar. You can go part way on this and get 2 lithium now, adding 2 more and/or extra solar later. There are some other details to consider, but that's where I would start. Rich 4 Likes
Re: Replacement coach batteries Reply #3 – March 01, 2022, 05:36:16 pm I like Rich's advice. Flooded lead-acid batteries have a number of drawbacks compared with newer technologies, but they are still the most cost-effective type in terms of amp-hours per dollar. If given proper care (a big "if"), they can serve well for at least five or six years. But I wouldn't choose them if I were setting up a rig for full-timing, unless I absolutely couldn't afford anything better.At the other end of the spectrum, LiFePO4 batteries have major advantages: they charge much faster than any lead-acid battery type, they can be drained much lower without damage, they weigh a lot less, and they don't need venting. They are somewhat limited in their range of operating temperatures; they don't like heat, and they can't be safely charged below freezing. Putting them in an outside compartment isn't a great idea. Their main drawback has been their high cost, but that's coming down.AGM batteries are in the middle. They charge somewhat faster than flooded-cell batteries, they don't need venting, and they're less expensive per rated amp-hour than LiFePO4 batteries. In the past, they were a good upgrade choice, and I used them for many years in my 2003 midbath.But Rich makes a good point: LiFePO4 batteries give you more usable power per rated amp-hour than either flooded-cell or AGM batteries. Let's consider that. A LiFePO4 battery can be safely discharged to 20% again and again without significantly reducing its life expectancy. So we can say that a 100 Ah LiFePO4 battery gives you 80 Ah of usable capacity. But a 100 Ah flooded-cell or AGM battery gives you only about 50 Ah of safely usable capacity. So four AGM batteries would provide about 200 Ah of capacity, while two 100 Ah LiFePO4 batteries would offer about 160 Ah.What about cost? Four Lifeline AGMs cost about $1,500. Two Battle Born LiFePO4 batteries cost about the same, give or take a hundred. So if you're willing to work with 160 usable Ah instead of 200, the LiFePO4 batteries are a better choice. Faster charging means they will take better advantage of solar power, and if you need to run your generator, you won't need to run it nearly as long. And the weight difference is huge: 62 pounds total for two LiFePO4 batteries versus 248 pounds for four AGMs.I've traveled full-time with various setups over the past seventeen years: four AGM batteries and a proSINE 2.0 inverter/charger; two 160 Ah LiFePO4 batteries and a 1,000 W inverter; two 100 Ah LiFePO4 batteries; and at present two 130 Ah LiFePO4 batteries. Over the years I've learned to be quite happy without a massive inverter or power-hungry appliances.So all in all, I agree with Rich: get a couple of 100 Ah LiFePO4 batteries. Block any outside vents in your battery compartment, and consider adding an inside vent, so that compartment stays at more or less the same temperature as the coach interior. If you're OK, your LiFePO4s will be happy. And minimize the use of high-powered appliances. (I don't even carry a microwave oven any more, and I do just fine.)About those two solar panels: again, I agree with Rich. For full-timing, I'd seriously consider adding two more. "One watt of solar power per amp-hour of rated battery capacity" is a good rule of thumb. Make sure your wiring is large enough to minimize voltage drop from the roof to the charging controller. This calculator will help you figure that out. I try to keep my voltage drop under 2%. 9 Likes
Re: Replacement coach batteries Reply #4 – March 04, 2022, 11:46:27 am Thank you for the help. Lots to think about. Will update all once I make decision and get new ones.ThanksGeorge
Re: Replacement coach batteries Reply #5 – March 04, 2022, 08:03:22 pm I recently replaced my two golf cart batteries with an LFP (lithium iron phosphate) battery from Renogy: 12V, 200AH, Bluetooth, and the BMS has a low temperature charging cutoff. Renogy is a 12 year old US company that has been selling solar panels, batteries, controllers, etc, for 12 years, so I have a fair amount of confidence in them. The battery measured over 215 AH, it easily starts the generator (charges at 60 amps the end), and the Bluetooth (with an app on my cell phone) is really handy. I replaced my original solar charge regulator with a Renogy unit that handles Lithium, and got Bluetooth for it. Also very nice. Current sale price is $1000, including shipping. Their support people have been prompt, but I haven't had any tough questions, so can't speak to the depth of their knowledge.Our first trip is a week away, but so far, all seems good. It will be a joy to have 180 usable AH instead 100! It's mounted inside, so the expected cold weather won't cause a difficulties. 2 Likes
Re: Replacement coach batteries Reply #6 – March 06, 2022, 02:06:16 am I've heard there are no dumb questions, just dumb people asking questions....Aren't there other modifications necessary to upgrade to the lithium batteries? I agree they're tempting, but I've been told that there are other expenses than just the batteries themselves..... 1 Likes
Re: Replacement coach batteries Reply #7 – March 06, 2022, 11:29:50 am Wouldn’t it be nice if merging older tech with newer tech was as easy as 1,2,3. Didn’t happen in the audio/video world and the same is true with the RV world.Don’t fret though. It isn’t rocket science and with a little help it can be done. Upgrading Solar too? It’s a bit more complicated. We had a major upgrade to our LD power system. It was beyond a DIY project for me so I went to AM Solar and had them do it all. They do have mail order and tech staff to help you install the battery upgrade if you purchase products from them. Here is an interesting YouTube video on a lithium battery upgrade done by a RV vlogger (not AM Solar). https://youtu.be/zdyN71u7U_cThere is plenty of help here, too. But yes. There are things that need upgrading to a current lead acid or AGM powered system when switching over to Lithium.Much of my Audio/Video system at home required some tweaking to mesh the old with the new, but bit by bit it all came together.Best of luck with this RV power upgrade. Kent 2 Likes
Re: Replacement coach batteries Reply #8 – March 06, 2022, 11:57:10 am Quote from: frayednot - March 06, 2022, 02:06:16 amI'v I agree they're tempting, but I've been told that there are other expenses than just the batteries themselves.....A lot depends on what converter and solar controller your LD has. For many, dropping in a pair of lithiums is simple, others may need to replace the converter and/or replace or reprogram the solar controller.Adding a new battery isolator may be necessary.It depends.Larry 2 Likes
Re: Replacement coach batteries Reply #9 – March 06, 2022, 12:00:45 pm Hi Laura; That depends! I am nearly finished installing my new LiFePO4 batteries in my 'TK. Because I had nowhere else to put them, many complications involved using the provided battery box, which is open to air and water, and can be too cold. With your Mid Bath, you can put the batteries inside where they can stay clean dry and warm, but not too warm. Under the refrigerator is a good place. They need to be fastened down so they won't move. Electrically all of the wiring is right there where the old battery box is. I had upgraded the converter to a new Progressive Dynamics, and it had a jumper that could easily convert the charging profile (output voltage) to work for LiF batteries. It was easy. You would benefit by having the new smarter converter even if you don't switch to LiF batteries. Charging the batteries from the alternator might be able to stress the alternator to the breaking point, because LiF can suck more power, very quickly, from the alternator. That depends on how many LiF batteries you have and the quality of the wiring. LD supplied wiring #4 gauge may limit how much current the alternator can supply, and limit any damage. A simple addition of the Battleborn isolator Amazon.com: Lithium Battery Isolation Manager : Automotive , or Cyrix isolator Victron Energy Cyrix-Li-ct 12/24V-120A Intelligent Charge Relay | Northern... will fix that. They switch on and off to limit the duty cycle of the alternator charging the battery. I chose to use a DC to DC converter that takes the chassis alternator current and converts it also to fit the LIF charge profile. You wouldn't need that. Solar. I upgraded to 450 watts with new panels. My old 48 watt panels at 25+yo (used when I got them) were lower efficiency and rubber seals were breaking down. I have limited room on a 'TK roof. You can use more solar. As Larry says, nobody ever complains about having too much solar power! On a MB you can put a lot up there. But it isn't required because of the LIF batteries. So the answer is always 'It depends'. But modern LIF batteries can be just drop in replacements. RonB edited: I was writing this while Kent and Larry were responding. Just one SOK 206 will upgrade both of your Lead acid batteries. and will drop in. My solar controller didn't require any programming changes yet, but can be altered. The R3000i seems to be working good without changes. It is harder to tell what is going on inside the batterie(s) and I had installed a Balmar monitor before, and it confirmed my suspicions that my Lead acid batteries were getting older at only 75% capacity, so I took the plunge. Won't have to add water anymore! 2 Likes As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: Replacement coach batteries Reply #10 – March 06, 2022, 01:28:20 pm Here is another Lead Acid/AGM battery to Lithium Battery comparison YouTube video. https://youtu.be/EVQecXGjNkkHere’s a YouTube video about the use of a DC to DC converter to connect the chassis alternator to a lithium battery system to protect your alternator. https://youtu.be/TDxfRXgQT04Here are Tito’s more recent DC/DC upgrades. https://youtu.be/lvOYUfSBlmMKent 1 Likes
Re: Replacement coach batteries Reply #11 – March 06, 2022, 04:28:01 pm One other thing worth mentioning: in replacing old 6 V flooded-cell (e.g., Trojan T-105) batteries with 12 V lithium batteries, it'll be necessary to switch from two 6 V batteries in series to two 12 V batteries in parallel. That's a pretty simple rewiring job, but may require making a new (short) cable or two. You can find more information online; this diagram shows what's needed. 2 Likes
Re: Replacement coach batteries Reply #12 – March 07, 2022, 09:13:30 am One thing I learned from planning my lithium battery changeover in my Rear Bath is when making the battery cables connecting batteries to each other that the parallel positive and negative cables need to be equal length from battery one to battery two. BattleBorn technicians said this equalizes the energy flow. If you add battery three, those cables (+) & (-) need to equal each other in length but can be longer or shorter than the pair of cables between batteries one & two. The same applies to any additional batteries. Also it is best to tap the positive battery terminal at one end of several parallel connected batteries and tap the negative at the other end of the battery group for service to the coach power system. BattleBorn recommended using 01ga. cables however I opted to use 02ga. wire for less resistance. I also used welding cable wire as they are more flexible and easier to route in the tight spaces around the batteries. These parameters can be applied to whatever type of battery one wants to use. 3 Likes
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