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Topic: Before I dive into the ATS. . . (Read 671 times) previous topic - next topic
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Before I dive into the ATS. . .
I thought this was going to be a good electrical week.  It started out with fixing an outdoor socket that had been 'dead' for 6 years.  Turned out to be a lose neutral in the GFI circuit in the spare bathroom.  Andy's  suggested non-contact circuit tester made the day.

I noticed the LD's battery drawing down - with the lower sun on the covered solar panels I wasn't surprised.  I boosted them a bit last week with the generator test and decided to top them off with shore power.  Plugged in and - no 100 to the rig.   I first thought breaker or the progressive dynamics box installed with the solar upgrade might be an easily-reachable solution.  Power to and thru it and toward the panel - good as far as I could reach and see.   No power at the breakers in the power center.

I found Kenneth Fears post in THIS THREAD which seems to point to the ATS.    Power is off,  but I thought I'd post the question 'am I nuts to do this?' before dragging the power center out.

To hot to do it today anyway.

Joel
Joel & Terry Wiley
dog Zeke
2013  31 IB   Orwan   / 2011 CRV Tow'd LWEROVE
Re: Before I dive into the ATS. . .
Reply #1 –
Joel, I re-read my post so we are on the same page.  Repeating, WORKING ON LIVE WIRING IS DANGEROUS.  DON'T TRY IT UNLESS YOU ARE CERTAIN OF YOUR ABILITIES.

Look for the break in power in a step by step process.  If you start at the breaker box, my recommendation, using a multimeter, check the power coming into the main breaker while connected to shore power.  You do this by, with power off, pulling the main breaker, connect power, and connect the multimeter with hot on the wire coming into the breaker and ground going to the buss bar with the white wires.  If you have no power at that wire connecting to the breaker, then power is not getting into the breaker box.  If you do get power at the wire, but nothing with the breaker in place, the breaker is bad.

Assuming you find no power coming to the breaker, turn the power off, replace the breaker, pull the power panel out, open the ATS, connect power, then check for power out of the ATS, and power into the ATS.  If you have power coming in but not out, the ATS is bad.  Up to this point, things have been easy.  Replace the ATS.   That's the hard part.

There is a very remote chance that you find no power at the breaker but power is going out of the ATS.  This means the wiring between the breaker and the ATS is bad.

If there is no power coming into the ATS, you have a problem either in the wiring or plug on the RV's wall, or with the shore power cable.  Plug the shore cable in to the pedestal and use the multimeter to check for voltage at the end that plugs into the rig.  If you have no power, one of the plugs on the shore cable is bad, or there is a break inside the cable itself.  A careful visual inspection might identify the problem.  If you have power, then the flaw is either in the wall plug where you connect the shore power cable, or in the cable between the wall plug and the ATS.

The basic idea here is to start at the most distant point, checking for power, then work your way closer and closer to the pedestal connection until you find power.  Alternatively, you can start at the pedestal and work your way toward the power panel.  Either way works in identifying the place where power no longer exists, ant that tells you what needs to be fixed.

Again, WORKING ON LIVE WIRING IS DANGEROUS.  DON'T TRY IT UNLESS YOU ARE CERTAIN OF YOUR ABILITIES.

Ken F in NM
'08 MB
Re: Before I dive into the ATS. . .
Reply #2 –
Thanks.  So far....  'pedestal' is 30A RV plug at the garage.   EMS unit under the sink, and the display indicates  E0 (normal) 118V, 0 A.  Cables to and from EMS have power.   No power on hot lead to 30A breaker in the power center.
So looks like unplug everything and pull the power center out.   Thought I'd ask first. 
Joel & Terry Wiley
dog Zeke
2013  31 IB   Orwan   / 2011 CRV Tow'd LWEROVE
Re: Before I dive into the ATS. . .
Reply #3 –
Joel, you said, "Cables to and from EMS have power" with no power at the hot lead to the main breaker.  That means your problem is between the EMS and the breaker.  Units that monitor the generator with the EMS have nothing but a cable between the EMS and the breaker.  Either one of the connections is bad or the cable is bad.  Units that do not monitor the generator with the EMS, just monitor shore power, have the ATS between the EMS and the breaker.  Odds are the ATS is bad, which is where you started, but this would confirm it.

Ken F in NM
'08 MB
Re: Before I dive into the ATS. . .
Reply #4 –
The ATS appears to be where things aren't happening. Nothing seems to be fried so I am guessing it's in the electronics.
Shore power goes to the EMS then to pins 3 & 4 (counting from the left).  Generator goes to pins 2, & 5 with Pins 1 & 6 going to the power center.    I noted that all are solid strand (12 ga I think) romex.   I've seen some comments on 12 ga stranded as preferred.    Something to consider  since everything is hanging out. 

When Quality Solar installed the EMS along with sundry other solar-related items,  he said it would have been more trouble to hook the EMS to both shore and generator.   

Looking at the wiring,   It would seem that shore power could go back on pins 2 & 5,  pins 1 & 6 could go out to the EMS and the return from the EMS go to the power center feeds.  That would seem to be the way to route shore and generator thru the EMS unless I am missing something.  Snaking the EMS output wires thru the hole under the ATS board looks to be the crux there.

Time to consider that while awaiting parts.

Solid or stranded wire for what I'd be changing.

Separate topic:  Since the power center is out already,   can I wire in a circuit for a ham radio here or would it be better to tap it straight off the battery?

Thanks in advance

Joel & Terry Wiley
dog Zeke
2013  31 IB   Orwan   / 2011 CRV Tow'd LWEROVE
Re: Before I dive into the ATS. . .
Reply #5 –
Quote from: joel wiley  - 
The ATS appears to be where things aren't happening. Nothing seems to be fried so I am guessing it's in the electronics.
Shore power goes to the EMS then to pins 3 & 4 (counting from the left).  Generator goes to pins 2, & 5 with Pins 1 & 6 going to the power center.    I noted that all are solid strand (12 ga I think) romex.  I've seen some comments on 12 ga stranded as preferred.    Something to consider  since everything is hanging out. 
Is this the oem transfer switch from LD, or was that replaced? Ones I've seen and used look more like this on the inside:
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Before I dive into the ATS. . .
Reply #6 –
"he said it would have been more trouble to hook the EMS to both shore and generator."

Yes, it would. But why let a lazy installer talk you out of something you know will be useful? Generators can malfunction, and even at best their power output is rather "dirty," so having EMS protection on that power source seems like a good idea.

"Solid or stranded wire for what I'd be changing."

Given a choice, never use solid wire ("Romex") in a mobile application. It's more likely to loosen, and when it does, connections can overheat and even melt down--this has happened to a number of LD owners over the years. Yes, I know RV manufacturers do it, but it's a bad idea.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Before I dive into the ATS. . .
Reply #7 –
Joel, I think you nailed it - the ATS.

As to the wire, for 30 amp service, the wire should be #10 AWG, not #12.  The solid wire Romex jacket is color coded, I think, with orange for #10 wire. (I am not 100% sure on that.)

As to the ham radio stuff, what are your needs in terms of volts and amps?

Ken F in NM
'08 MB
Re: Before I dive into the ATS. . .
Reply #8 –
The ATS that Joel pictured looks like the original one on my rig and the one I replaced it with 10+ years ago. The one that Steve posted looks like the one that I got from Best Converter this summer to replace that one. Maybe my memory is hazy, but I found installing the 1st replacement easier.

George
99 MB
George & Jo Ann
2017 MB
Re: Before I dive into the ATS. . .
Reply #9 –
I fabricated a transfer switch for a lower draw function using an encapsulated relay similar to the one in Joel's image. I was switching an inverter output vs. shore/generator to our fridge. It sparked, due to the small distance between contacts and fast transition time, plus the fact phases were mismatched. The inverter blew. It is critical that any transfer switch perform 'break before make' to avoid such issues. Large contact spacing is one way of preventing arcing. The transfer switch I replaced mine with is similar to the pic I posted.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Before I dive into the ATS. . .
Reply #10 –
Switch is OEM, wire is Orange Romex.  Now looking online for switch.  Will see what 10/3 stranded wire available.
35 days to the election so over a month to get this done right.  Thanks
Joel & Terry Wiley
dog Zeke
2013  31 IB   Orwan   / 2011 CRV Tow'd LWEROVE
Re: Before I dive into the ATS. . .
Reply #11 –
Quote from: joel wiley  - 
.
Separate topic:  Since the power center is out already,  can I wire in a circuit for a ham radio here or would it be better to tap it straight off the battery?

Wire radio gear directly to the coach battery, running positive and negative wires directly to the battery terminals, do not use a chassis ground. Oversizing the wire never hurts.
Fuse the positive and negative wires at the battery.
If you have a battery capacity meter, run the negative wire to the shunt, so the power usage will be recorded.

What are you thinking about installing, a multi-band rig or a 2-meter/440 transceiver for in-route communications and the use of repeaters?

Larry


Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Before I dive into the ATS. . .
Reply #12 –
"Will see what 10/3 stranded wire available."

Joel,

I suggest SJO cord, which is usually available at Home Depot or Lowe's in bulk so you can get them to cut only what you need. Good cord and easy to work with.

Bill
Bill
2003 -- 23' FL
Re: Before I dive into the ATS. . .
Reply #13 –
Quote from: joel wiley  - 
Separate topic:  Since the power center is out already,  can I wire in a circuit for a ham radio here or would it be better to tap it straight off the battery?

Quote from: Larry W  - 
Wire radio gear directly to the coach battery, running positive and negative wires directly to the battery terminals, do not use a chassis ground. Oversizing the wire never hurts.
Fuse the positive and negative wires at the battery.
If you have a battery capacity meter, run the negative wire to the shunt, so the power usage will be recorded.

Joel,
As usual, everything Larry said is spot on.  Additionally... Alan Applegate - K0BG has compiled a wealth of information regarding mobile ham radio operation.  Alan echos all of Larry’s recommendations and much more.  If you haven’t already done so, you should look at the K0BG website.  It will answer many questions you may have.

- John

Fulltimer with a 2021 MId-Bath “Babe”, 1996 Cherokee “Scout” and “Bandit” the wonder dog 🐶
Re: Before I dive into the ATS. . .
Reply #14 –
Thanks for the info Larry & John.
I picked up a use Yeasu FT857D and am still working thru the manual.  I've only used it on 2 meters for the local radio club nets.
K0BG is a new resource and is duly bookmarked.
Joel
KN6IMR / WQYE694
Joel & Terry Wiley
dog Zeke
2013  31 IB   Orwan   / 2011 CRV Tow'd LWEROVE
Re: Before I dive into the ATS. . .
Reply #15 –
Quote from: joel wiley  - 
I picked up a use Yeasu FT857D and am still working thru the manual.

Nice radio... I don’t want to get too far off topic, so pm me if you’d like to talk about an HF antenna on the LD.

- John
Fulltimer with a 2021 MId-Bath “Babe”, 1996 Cherokee “Scout” and “Bandit” the wonder dog 🐶
Re: Before I dive into the ATS. . .
Reply #16 –
Back again, making progress.  Old ATS is out and new ATS is on the workbench.   The EMS has SJO wire installed and ready to go back in.   The latest wrinkle on installing the EMS downstream of the ATS is this:  when the EMS was installed as part of the solar install, it was wired from the line in from the Marinco connector.  The installer kindly trimmed all the extra slack for which LD is renowned and now it will not reach the ATS.  If I splice a bit more on,  is it better to put the connection in a junction box?  Are wire nuts appropriate for joining romex and stranded wire?   Would it be a more professional job to install new SJO wire from the Marinco connector (and what kind of a PITA would that be)?

23 days till the election - still have time to finish.
Joel

Joel & Terry Wiley
dog Zeke
2013  31 IB   Orwan   / 2011 CRV Tow'd LWEROVE
Re: Before I dive into the ATS. . .
Reply #17 –
Hi Joel.  I would put the junction in a box. I'd use a watertight 'Bell box'. Strain reliefs on the wires. Heavy duty wire nuts. I pretwist the wires and cut the ends to match, before I apply the wire nut.  Blue for two #10 wires. I use a tywrap (plastic wire tie) to keep the wires together going into the wire nut. If a wire is pulled on, that way the juction inside isn't stressed. I'd ground the box, and fasten it down, but maybe not really a necessity. It also depends on how much room you have.      RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: Before I dive into the ATS. . .
Reply #18 –
Ron describes the right way to splice.  While it would be more professional to do a continuous run from the Marinco, getting access for that is a PITA.  Doing a splice is acceptable, but using a junction box is not only a code requirement, it is essential for safety.

Ken F in NM
'08 MB
Re: Before I dive into the ATS. . .
Reply #19 –
I feel for you guys working in those tight quarters. The area in our mid bath where the electrical is located is not very pleasant.
Someone through the years relocated our transfer switch up under the sink area and access is a little easier. Could you maybe do something similar and then use the box you mount it on as a j box also. Lazy Daze sure doesn't waste any wire. I would highly recommend #10 SJ cord or equivalent, just way easier to work with.

Jon
1994 MB
Re: Before I dive into the ATS. . .
Reply #20 –
Well, I buttoned up this project this afternoon.
There is a saying in golf that if the ball goes to the left- it's a hook, if it goes to the right- it's a slice, and if it goes straight- it's a miracle.  That's kind of the feeling I had when the shore power and generator worked as advertised.

I traded a few PMs with RonB for valuable technical advice today on questions I had.  Thanks all for the SJO suggestions. I used SJOOW cord and the smaller diameter than SOOW probably was significant, in that I could use existing 3/8" strain reliefs.  As it worked out, I was able to use the existing 10/3 line-in romex from the Marinco plug after all and didn't need to put a patch in a junction box. 

The EMS is now working with both the generator and shore power.  The only thing not done is the monitor values for % charge and amps to full.  That may resolve itself by itself over the next day or so or by a dip into the manual.

Thanks for all the suggestions and feedback.
Nothing done about the radio.

Joel

Joel & Terry Wiley
dog Zeke
2013  31 IB   Orwan   / 2011 CRV Tow'd LWEROVE