Short circuit April 23, 2020, 10:37:33 am I seem to have developed a short circuit. A couple of months ago, I was doing my regular winter monthly exercise, when the generator wouldn't start. After a few tries, I heard a "pop" and my monitor panel went out. I poked around a bit, and found the 10 amp fuse for the monitor panel blown. I replaced the fuse and it blew again immediately. I turned off all the circuit breakers and pulled the 30 amp fuses (I had upgraded to the 7345 converter) and tried another 10 amp fuse. It blew again. I got the monitor panel out and didn't see any obvious problem. I disconnected the monitor panel and replaced the 10 amp fuse which immediately blew. The generator is now working (but not running when I was playing with the fuses). The microwave does not seem to be working when the generator is on, but I know my transfer switch sometimes is slow to kick in. So, I seem to have a short somewhere. Thoughts?George & JoAnn1999 Midbath
Re: Short circuit Reply #1 – April 23, 2020, 12:58:14 pm Hi George and JoAnn; So the 10 amp fuse is in the power distribution box, the 7345 unit? What other things are connected to this fuse? The monitor panel by itself wouldn't use much current. Just the tank level LED's when the button is pushed. I know the switch to turn on the water pump is there. Perhaps the water pump is having a problem? In your year (same as mine), that monitor panel can be removed easily. Just push up on the panel. That will unhook it, and the panel can be pulled out, gently, and the wiring harness will come with it. That might reveal more about this problem. The remote generator switch may also be wired through this panel, and I'm sure it was no coincidence that this fuse blowing problem started with the generator issue. The microwave is powered by a 110 vac circuit breaker in the 7345 distribution panel, but as far as I know, there is no 12 vdc connection to the MW. Does the cooktop hood light and fan still work? RonB
Re: Short circuit Reply #2 – April 23, 2020, 02:03:18 pm I'm not sure if the hard starting generator has anything to do with the fuse blowing.Does the generator now run with the blown fuse? If it runs, there should be no connection.The panels circuit board can be tested for shorts by opening the panel, finding the plug on the circuit board, and unplugging it.If a new fuse still blows, the issue is in the wiring. It's doubtful the problem is in the panel, it uses no power until the 'Test" button is pushed and the wires to the tank's probes are not powered unless the Test button is pushedThe short could be anywhere on the pathway between the fuse in the Power Center and the monitor panel.The Power Center would be the first place I would start looking. To help track the short, open the Power Center door, removed the blown fuse and connect a 12-volt test light or a buzzer to each socket of the removed fuse. The bulb or buzzer should activate when a short is present and will turn off when the short is discovered and disconnected. Now, start investigating the wire run, look and wiggle things, seeing if the light or buzzer turns off monentarily.While a test light works well, a buzzer is even better, you don't need to look at it to know what is happening, convenient when your head is inside a cabinet.As Ron pointed out, there is no 12-volt connection to the microwave.Happy huntingLarry 2 Likes
Re: Short circuit Reply #3 – April 23, 2020, 11:04:29 pm George & JoAnn,You might check the electrical connections in your panel. Your rig is not a spring chicken anymore and all the bumps and jiggling on the road will loosen those connections over time. It should be part of our regular maintenance, to check all electrical connections and confirm they are tight and have a squirt of electrical connection cleaner. How often likely depends on your climate, use of your LD, etc.We did find one loose in the switch for the water heater that meant that switch quit working so I could see it also affecting a fuse. Ours are the spade connectors so they can look fine, but need to be taken off, cleaned up, then put back on firmly to be sure they are good.Jane
Re: Short circuit Reply #4 – May 12, 2020, 06:06:53 pm Following up on my post. I've been unable to to find the short. It's in the wiring somewhere, I've eliminated both the actual monitor display (by unplugging it) and the distribution center (by moving the wire) as the culprit. I can only see the wire for about 2 feet after it leaves the distribution panel and then it's hidden. I called Lazy Daze and they told me the wiring runs in a channel either behind the wall or under the floor, so there is no way to examine it. I'm thinking that the only fix is to run a new wire from the panel to the monitor display. I'd probably run from the distribution center, up the vent next to the kitchen sink, under the cabinet, and then up to the monitor panel. I'd use some wire mold to make it less objectionable. Does anyone know what gauge wire to use? George & Jo Ann99 MB
Re: Short circuit Reply #5 – May 12, 2020, 09:47:48 pm As with home AC wiring, LD runs its 12V circuits daisy-chained in parallel. It is possible that the only appliance on the 10A fuse is the monitor panel, but there may be other items. I would check everything to see if some other item is not working with the fuse out, such as range hood fan, courtesy light, etc., that might be the actual source of the short. Then, if nothing else is on that circuit, the color and gauge of the wire connected to that fuse position should be the same at the fuse board as at the monitor panel, so you can find and disconnect it from the monitor panel AND the fuse board and check for a short to ground using an ohmmeter.Steve
Re: Short circuit Reply #6 – May 12, 2020, 11:44:55 pm I verified all my fuses a while back and there were 3 things on the 10 amp fuse that I think you are having trouble with.1 the TV panel2 the monitor panel 3 the water heaterI don't know much about the tv panel but the water heater could be an issue, is the switch off to it? Maybe you have already done it but isolate each one at a time. Before you run a wire, temporary a wire to the panel and see what happens.Jon
Re: Short circuit Reply #7 – May 13, 2020, 10:02:11 am Hi Jon-- When I disconnect the monitor panel, I believe this also disconnects the water heater. There is a wire into the panel that goes to the water heater switch and another wire out that I believe goes to the igniter. So, with the monitor panel disconnected, a short in the switch or the igniter is bypassed???
Re: Short circuit Reply #8 – May 13, 2020, 10:09:21 am The most likely place for a short will be where wires are free to move and where connections are made - not clamped inside interior walls or secured away from contact. You could have a problem at the connector to the monitor panel, e.g. Disconnect the power wire from there and test. Etc..Steve
Re: Short circuit Reply #9 – May 13, 2020, 11:01:56 am Our monitor panel is built into the cabinet, if yours is in the range hood, there is plenty opportunity for wires to rub on a raw metal edge, then once your wires are in the cabinetry your probably good to go till you get to the converter where again there are a lot of sharp edges. A meter that beeps on ohms is good, disconnect both ends of the power wire hook up the ohm meter one lead to the end of the power wire and the other lead to ground if you have a direct short the meter will beep at you. If it does, then go to work and start looking for the bad spot. Pay close attention to where it enters or leaves a metal cabinet of any kind. You said you heard a pop while the generator was running, look for some place that might of arched and burnt some wires.Jon
Re: Short circuit Reply #10 – May 13, 2020, 06:23:31 pm Success! Thanks to everyone who gave suggestions. The short was in the 12 volt TV receptacle. I followed Jon's suggestion to check everything connected to the circuit that kept blowing. I hadn't thought of the TV because we almost never use it. Turns out that the metal collar on the 12 volt receptacle was loose. When I was trying to start the generator, the vibration must have moved the collar enough to short the terminal. I took out the collar and all is well!One question. There are 2 12 volt receptacles, but since I now have a TV with built in DVD instead of the original TV plus VCR, I believe I only need one?George & Jo Ann99 MB 2 Likes
Re: Short circuit Reply #11 – May 13, 2020, 06:37:15 pm Quote from: George Kaplan - May 13, 2020, 06:23:31 pmSuccess! Thanks to everyone who gave suggestions. The short was in the 12 volt TV receptacle. I followed Jon's suggestion to check everything connected to the circuit that kept blowing. I hadn't thought of the TV because we almost never use it. Turns out that the metal collar on the 12 volt receptacle was loose. When I was trying to start the generator, the vibration must have moved the collar enough to short the terminal. I took out the collar and all is well!One question. There are 2 12 volt receptacles, but since I now have a TV with built in DVD instead of the original TV plus VCR, I believe I only need one?George & Jo Ann99 MB This is what Lazy Daze Owners' Group is all about. With the help of 5 members and 11 posts later, George's problem was solved. Nice work on everyone's part. Chris 3 Likes
Re: Short circuit Reply #12 – May 13, 2020, 07:53:40 pm Quote from: George Kaplan - May 13, 2020, 06:23:31 pmOne question. There are 2 12 volt receptacles, but since I now have a TV with built in DVD instead of the original TV plus VCR, I believe I only need one?Are you thinking of removing the 2nd one? You never know what someone (you all or a guest or the next owner) might want a 12v outlet for, so I would leave it in place (assuming it is safely securely attached to structure - if it was hanging loose I would likely take it off, appropriately managing the wires so none are left cut and "live").Jane
Re: Short circuit Reply #13 – May 13, 2020, 10:17:08 pm "There are 2 12 volt receptacles, but since I now have a TV with built in DVD instead of the original TV plus VCR, I believe I only need one?"If it were me, I'd want more than two! In fact, I've added multiple 12 V outlets to every rig I've owned.When choosing a small appliance, I always go with 12 V if possible--it's almost always more efficient than using a 120 V appliance with an inverter. Just off the top of my head, here are a few of the things I plug into my various 12 V outlets:Portable 12 V fan12 V electric blanketCell phone antenna booster12 V car vacuum cleanerUSB iPhone, iPad, MacBook, and Kindle chargersRyobi "One+" power tool battery chargerDremel tool battery chargerMaha charger for AA and AAA batteries used in my flashlights, headlamps, and cupboard lightsSmall 75 W inverter for devices such as my electric toothbrush that can't charge on 12 V... and I'm sure there are more items that I'm not thinking of.Moral: you can't have too many 12 V outlets. :-) 2 Likes
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