Re: House batteries. Reply #1 – March 10, 2020, 05:41:38 pm Trojan T-105, best value and a long life.Use with a remote watering for ease of maintenance.Morro BayLarry 6 Likes
Re: House batteries. Reply #2 – March 10, 2020, 06:37:39 pm Quote from: Mindispower - March 10, 2020, 04:42:19 pmWhich do you prefer and why?FloodedGelAGMOne of the perennial Cost versus Value RV conundrums. I would prefer LiFePO4 but for us the Cost outweighs the Benefit. We presently have 225Ah of Flooded Deep Cycle (Trojan T-105). To move to LiFePO4 now would very costly requiring new batteries, new solar charge controller, new converter, probably new wiring, and much labor. It is not cost effective for us to change now but will consider going to AGM or LiFePO4 again when these Trojans expire. Why I prefer a LiFePO4 battery is because a LiFePO4 is better than any lead acid in just about every measurable way. However, the cost difference is extreme. Generally, LiFePO4 costs 3-10 times as much as a similarly sized Flooded Deep Cycle.AGM use out numbers Gel 100 to 1 and AGM out-performs Gel too; I would take Gel out of consideration.Every person’s situation is unique, there is no “one-size-fits-all” solution. However, you can't go wrong with true Flooded Deep Cycle from a top-tier manufacturer.Charles 1 Likes
Re: House batteries. Reply #3 – March 10, 2020, 06:46:52 pm No options. My 6 batteries fit in only one place - under the front dinette seat. That puts them inside the rig. The only safe batteries for me are either AGM or Lithium, and lithium are well outside my price range. If I could turn the clock back 10 years but keep today's technology, I would have lithium batteries, but lithium batteries were not an option when I set up my system so AGM was the only safe battery bank for me.Ken F in NM 1 Likes
Re: House batteries. Reply #4 – March 10, 2020, 09:51:30 pm Quote from: Charles & Donna - March 10, 2020, 06:37:39 pm“One of the perennial Cost versus Value RV conundrums. I would prefer LiFePO4 but for us the Cost outweighs the Benefit. We presently have 225Ah of Flooded Deep Cycle (Trojan T-105). To move to LiFePO4 now would very costly requiring new batteries, new solar charge controller, new converter, probably new wiring, and much labor. It is not cost effective for us to change now but will consider going to AGM or LiFePO4 again when these Trojans expire. Why I prefer a LiFePO4 battery is because a LiFePO4 is better than any lead acid in just about every measurable way. However, the cost difference is extreme. Generally, LiFePO4 costs 3-10 times as much as a similarly sized Flooded Deep Cycle.” Mentioned before but adding 200AH of lithium to the existing 225AH of Flooded cost $2500. No new solar controller or converter required. I did add a 1500 watt inverter and a DC to DC charger to charge the flooded from the lithium for another $600 or so. I really recommend it but I think you will have to install it yourself.It has been running two seasons now, heading for the third. I only have 200 watts of solar. The greatest advantage is the very much reduced generator runtime as it has a charge rate of up to 120 amps. The flooded batteries alone no longer met my power requirements. 1 Likes
Re: House batteries. Reply #5 – March 10, 2020, 09:57:53 pm This is timely...I'm looking at buying 2 Trojan T125 ($159.00ea)this weekend. Where I'm getting them is only $20ea more than 105s. Anybody using the T125? Am I wasting $40?Bob
Re: House batteries. Reply #6 – March 11, 2020, 08:52:53 am I posted a study I think about one year ago. Lithium is cheaper in the long run over the life of the battery then all other types. Battery type costsWhen I get home in a few weeks I'll do another update but I'm guessing lithium will be even cheaper then when I did the last study. Glen 2 Likes
Re: House batteries. Reply #7 – March 11, 2020, 01:17:02 pm Glen, it looks as if your study compares the cost of batteries, but doesn't factor in the cost of ancillary equipment. That's valid if you assume the Battle Born LiFePO4 batteries used in your comparison are compatible with the factory-standard Parallax converter, which was designed for flooded-cell lead-acid batteries. Is that true? The lithium batteries I know of are not compatible with old-style chargers, thus incurring added equipment costs. 2 Likes
Re: House batteries. Reply #8 – March 11, 2020, 06:31:30 pm Our four Trojan T-105s recently were replaced at a cost of $539, providing a 450 amp-hour house battery, with 225 amp-hours safely usable. To get less capacity from a pair of Battleborn lithium, would cost nearly $2000, plus buying a lithium-specific converter..T-105 Plus 6V 225AH Deep-Cycle Trojan Battery | Online Battery Sale100Ah 12V LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Battery - Battle Born BatteriesIf owning a new LD, I would have no trouble changing to lithium but not on a 17 year old LD. I could only justify the extra expense if I expected to keep the rig for ten years or longer. I get an average of eight years from a set of Trojans.Larry 2 Likes
Re: House batteries. Reply #9 – March 11, 2020, 06:40:27 pm If it helps, I have 2 100AH Battleborns ($1800 deal) and a Progressive Dynamics PD9160ALV Converter Charger ($238). I also paid to have them installed and balanced (because I don't have the experience with such things).These batteries will be with me forever (almost) regardless of what happens with my LD because I will just use them with the solar on my next sticks and bricks (way in the future). :-)
Re: House batteries. Reply #10 – March 11, 2020, 07:42:41 pm Quote from: Larry W - March 11, 2020, 06:31:30 pmOur four Trojan T-105s recently were replaced at a cost of $539, providing a 450 amp-hour house battery, with 225 amp-hours safely usable. It's interesting to see that different people consider different discharge levels as safe. You apparently think 50% to be safe, from others I have heard I should not go below 60%. Since you are doing this since a long time and your batteries last usually eight years I guess you are doing it right (and I can do the same).In general I also think that lithium batteries are in many case a great luxury, but not really necessary. The main advantage is in my opinion that you can discharge them pretty much to the end without harming them. That is a good reason - with quite a price tag. Klaus
Re: House batteries. Reply #11 – March 11, 2020, 08:00:56 pm Quote from: Klaus - March 11, 2020, 07:42:41 pmIn general I also think that lithium batteries are in many case a great luxury, but not really necessary. The main advantage is in my opinion that you can discharge them pretty much to the end without harming them. That is a good reason - with quite a price tag. KlausFor me, having lithium is about having less stress. I don't have to keep a constant eye on my battery levels. As a newbie, the less I have to worry about, the more I enjoy myself. YMMV
Re: House batteries. Reply #12 – March 11, 2020, 11:19:51 pm "It's interesting to see that different people consider different discharge levels as safe. You apparently think 50% to be safe, from others I have heard I should not go below 60%."There is no magic number. The attached graph from the Lifeline (AGM) battery manual shows that total battery lifespan decreases gradually as depth of discharge increases. For example, if you never drain your batteries below 90% (10% depth of discharge on the graph), you can expect about 5,000 charge/discharge cycles. If you routinely drain them to 50%, 1,000 cycles are more likely. And so on. The deeper you drain them, the shorter their lifespan.Now obviously, only using 10% of your batteries' capacity in order to extend their lifespan isn't practical. You have to find your own balance. You can even make a legitimate argument for buying cheap batteries, using the heck out of them, and replacing them every couple of years. That's not my style, but it's a valid strategy.It's up to you. Just remember, there's no one "safe" number. It's a sliding scale. 5 Likes
Re: House batteries. Reply #13 – March 12, 2020, 05:56:11 pm I posted the methods and assumptions so I can presents a level playing field of all types of battery technologies. Real life use is too complicated to model. To the point of needed a new power controller my informed guess would say even at a $300 additional cost would still make Lithium cheaper over the life of the battery comps. The key imho is what timeline of ownership do you have. If you are thinking five or more years then Lithium should be the path.Glen
Re: House batteries. Reply #14 – March 13, 2020, 02:44:03 pm Regarding the old school LD battery condition lights, does anyone know the approximately percentage of charge for "Fair" and "Weak?"Pete
Re: House batteries. Reply #15 – March 13, 2020, 07:37:18 pm Quote from: Peter Weisel - March 13, 2020, 02:44:03 pmRegarding the old school LD battery condition lights, does anyone know the approximately percentage of charge for "Fair" and "Weak?"PeteFar as I know, this monitor only measures voltage under whatever load happens to be running at the time. This measurement is close to useless at determining charge level or battery condition. A first step would be to get a digital voltmeter so you can record actual precise voltage at no load, and correspond that to voltage vs. charge level vs. temperature chart.Steve 1 Likes
Re: House batteries. Reply #16 – March 14, 2020, 12:08:42 am As Steve said, the "idiot lights" are not capable of showing you the percentage of charge even remotely accurately. For that, you need a Victron BMV-712 or Balmar SG200 battery monitor. I have the Victron unit, but if I were buying new I'd probably get the Balmar--it offers more information. As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: House batteries. Reply #17 – March 14, 2020, 01:40:20 am Replace your T-105s with T-145s. The T-145 fits the LD battery compartment perfectly and it gives you a 530 Ah battery with a 260 Ah 20-hour capacity as compared to the T-105 which is a 450 Ah battery with a 225 Ah 20-hour capacity.About the same price for more capacity.And Klaus, Larry was not describing a safe discharge level of the T-105, he was quoting the industry standard 20-hour delivery value of the T-105.
Re: House batteries. Reply #18 – March 15, 2020, 12:58:10 pm Quote from: dsandsaz - March 14, 2020, 01:40:20 amReplace your T-105s with T-145s. The T-145 fits the LD battery compartment perfectly and it gives you a 530 Ah battery with a 260 Ah 20-hour capacity as compared to the T-105 which is a 450 Ah battery with a 225 Ah 20-hour capacity.About the same price for more capacity.T-105s are alway cheaper than T-125s or T-145s per amp/hour of capacity due to their mass production and wider usage.Take a look, these were the best prices I could find when recently replacing our rig's batteries.Trojan Battery Archives | Online Battery SaleIn our long term usage at LAX, T-125s did not last as long as the T-105s . Having the same size case with more internal plates, there is a smaller reserve of electrolyte, requiring more frequent watering. In heavy charging conditions, both the T-125's and T-145's overheat more easily, warping the cases . Older LDs, without AGMs, use a sliding battery tray that must be removed to install T-145s, to accommodate the extra height of the T-145. It's a tight, tough conversion that must use a remote watering system, since the top of the batteries cannot be accessed, once installed.Larry 2 Likes
Re: House batteries. Reply #19 – March 16, 2020, 06:46:37 pm Quote from: Larry W - March 15, 2020, 12:58:10 pmIn heavy charging conditions, both the T-125's and T-145's overheat more easily, warping the cases . Older LDs, without AGMs, use a sliding battery tray that must be removed to install T-145s, to accommodate the extra height of the T-145. It's a tight, tough conversion that must use a remote watering system, since the top of the batteries cannot be accessed, once installed.LarryHe hesitantly rises, drawing a deep breath before addressing the master... Our LD batteries, be they T-105, T-125 or T145 would not be subjected to the rigors of commercial usage at LAX and I assume they are used in aircraft tugs and baggage tractors. The current delivery requirements expected of batteries installed for this kind of service is way beyond what we would ever expect from our house batteries. No doubt, they get hot.Your suggestion that the T-145 requires battery compartment conversion by tray removal runs contrary to my experience. Attached are photos of my T-145's installed in the standard LD battery compartment (2007 IB-30). As you can see, they mount easily in the tray without the need for any conversion. 2 Likes
Re: House batteries. Reply #20 – March 16, 2020, 07:41:46 pm Here are the specs for Trojan T-145s; specs for the other 'T' series are on the Trojan website. Perhaps the OP might want to verify clearances by comparing the measurements of whichever batteries he feels would be best for his situation with the actual measurements of the coach battery compartment of his LD. Product | Trojan Battery Sales | Page 2145Product | Trojan Battery Sales | Page 2152If I recall, the OP's LD is a 1990 Chevy, and it may have a battery compartment that will not accommodate the taller batteries.YMMV, as always.
Re: House batteries. Reply #21 – March 17, 2020, 01:35:37 am Quote from: dsandsaz - March 16, 2020, 06:46:37 pmOur LD batteries, be they T-105, T-125 or T145 would not be subjected to the rigors of commercial usage at LAX and I assume they are used in aircraft tugs and baggage tractors. The current delivery requirements expected of batteries installed for this kind of service is way beyond what we would ever expect from our house batteries. No doubt, they get hot. (2007 IB-30). As you can see, they mount easily in the tray without the need for any conversion.Battery-powered aircraft and baggage tugs use batteries that weigh tons and are a completely different animal than what we are talking about here. My 20-plus years of experience with deep cycle battery usage at LAX was with janitorial equipment, such as floor scrubbers, electric carts and other light equipment used inside the airport's terminals . The floor machines were similar to this.Clarke® Focus® II 28 inch Mid Sized Auto Scrubber w/ Boost® Technology - 14"...The chargers provided by the machine's manufacturers charged at the recommend 15-20% of capacity.A 260-amp/hour battery can accept up to 50-amps, well within the capacity of a RV charging system when equipped with solar and connected to shore power . Our most heavily used floor machines consumed 40-50% of battery capacity nightly and were run seven days a week. A set of batteries lasted 2-3 years, an average of 700-1000 cycles. With dozens of machines in use, batteries were bought by the pallet load, so it paid to experiment with various battery sizes and brands and to document it so the Purchasing Department would allow buying Trojans when cheaper, sub-par "equivalents" were available. Many full timers have similar regular discharge rates and also charge at similar high rates if a large converter, inverter/converter or large solar panel system is used.You are right that the T145s fit a 2007 LD without removing the battery tray. I have installed several sets of T-145s in older LDs that came Factory equipped with T-105s and a battery box that was not tall enough without removing the tray, so the cables could be easily connected and a remote battery filler system installed.With a remote watering system, the slide out tray isn't necessary, LD eliminated it when AGMs were Factory installed.Working on LDs as old as 1981 models, it was obvious that LD has changed a lot of little things through the nearly 65 years of production. The battery box was one of them.In later models, 27' and under, when an owner wanted greater battery capacity I usually suggested installing four AGMs instead of using T145s, providing 440-amp/hours of capacity. Today, for an owner who plans on long term ownership or boondocking, lithiums may be a better choice . I would not do the conversion without changing to lithium specific converter and either changing or adjusting the solar controller to lithium specs, making this a very expensive upgrade..For the pre-2008 30' LDs, with the lower GVW and CCC, a pair of T145s is good upgrade and best possible with the exception of switching to lithium. Larry
Re: House batteries. Reply #22 – March 17, 2020, 02:50:07 pm "For the pre-2008 30' LDs, with the lower GVW and CCC, a pair of T145s is good upgrade and best possible with the exception of switching to lithium."On my '04 30'IB I am using the GPL 4CT LifeLine AGMs in the same space and location as the original T105s.
Re: House batteries. Reply #23 – March 18, 2020, 02:42:29 pm Quote from: Lazy Bones - March 17, 2020, 02:50:07 pm"For the pre-2008 30' LDs, with the lower GVW and CCC, a pair of T145s is good upgrade and best possible with the exception of switching to lithium."On my '04 30'IB I am using the GPL 4CT LifeLine AGMs in the same space and location as the original T105s. AGMs are a fine replacement for lead-acid batteries but for most users do not provide an improvement in usable amp/hours. Not having to add water, is the main advantage for most users except those with high power charging systems or large inverters.Larry
Re: House batteries. Reply #24 – June 10, 2020, 01:24:28 pm I have a 1991 LD 23' RV.Will need new house batteries soon.Seeing lots of posts here about Trojan T-105s.Will they work on my older LD?As an aside... I don't need lithium, don't have solar panels, and just like to chug around for a few days off-grid before coming home or going to a campground to recharge...
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