Installing EMS-HW30 in a TK January 03, 2020, 12:01:39 pm “Daisy” got a EMS-HW30 for Christmas so I’m planning the install now. As others have recommended I’m going to install it after the transfer switch so the gen can be monitored as well.At the moment I’m planning where to mount it in the short TK. I first thought about tucking it into the space left of the power center and below the entry cabinet and behind the battery box. Then it occurred to me that it can sit right on top of the transfer switch like so. Sitting on the transfer switch it’s actually flush with the cabinet cutout! If I have need to access the EMS or remove the transfer top plate for any reason it’s not too involved to remove the drawer rail.What do you think? Any other suggestions for the TK?
Re: Installing EMS-HW30 in a TK Reply #1 – January 03, 2020, 01:57:58 pm I guess my only concern would be getting to the ATS annually to torque the connections. That would seem to be difficult. I do wonder how it is secured to the ATS so that it does not move. You do NOT want vibration from traveling to cause movement of the EMS so that the cables are flexing.Other than that, this seems to be a creative solution.Ken F in NM 1 Likes
Re: Installing EMS-HW30 in a TK Reply #2 – January 03, 2020, 07:38:28 pm Quote from: 73gitane - January 03, 2020, 12:01:39 pm Then it occurred to me that it can sit right on top of the transfer switch like so. Sitting on the transfer switch it’s actually flush with the cabinet cutout! If I have need to access the EMS or remove the transfer top plate for any reason it’s not too involved to remove the drawer rail.That is a good position and the top of the box can be removed easily after removing the drawer slide.The T//K does not have a lot of places where the EMS box will fit.Larry
Re: Installing EMS-HW30 in a TK Reply #3 – January 03, 2020, 07:58:07 pm "The T//K does not have a lot of places where the EMS box will fit."----No, it doesn't. This is why I have the portable EMS.
Re: Installing EMS-HW30 in a TK Reply #4 – January 03, 2020, 10:51:18 pm Be aware that the switch can generate some heat in certain situations (maybe particular high or low voltages - I haven't been able to figure it out). As such, I might be hesitant to put it in an area that can otherwise be hot at times. This is true even when the connections are well made. You can see a particularly bad example here:https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/25483569.cfmand some searching will reveal others pointing out the same issue.I mounted mine in the space above the water pump in my Mid-Bath, with the bottom of the HW30 touching what is also the floor of the cabinet under the sink. I had some slight discoloration on the wood in the cabinet after a couple of years so I added some spacers and mounted the unit just off of the mounting surface.This review recommends the same:Progressive Industries Surge Protector ReviewOthers say they haven't had any issues, so maybe it varies by unit or requires some specific conditions to occur. This report suggests it might have to do with total Amps: Hum from Progressive EMS-HW50C - iRV2 ForumsRich'03 MB in NC 1 Likes
Re: Installing EMS-HW30 in a TK Reply #5 – January 04, 2020, 11:43:35 am Wow, in the research I've done I hadn't come across any warnings about the EMS heating up. Thank you for the links Rich.Has anyone seen evidence of heating in your installations?Maybe this is a better case for mounting it on the transfer switch cover plate as it will act as a heat sink and dissipate the heat safely
Re: Installing EMS-HW30 in a TK Reply #6 – January 04, 2020, 12:38:38 pm OK, doing a search on EMS-HW30 that includes hot or warm brings up a good number of posts. Looks like the general recommendation is to be sure those connections are nice and tight. Looks like good access to the EMS for periodic inspection would be a good idea.
Re: Installing EMS-HW30 in a TK Reply #7 – January 07, 2020, 09:52:42 am Has anyone had experience using lever nut wire connectors (see below Amazon link) in place of the screw-on wire nuts? Could they be a more secure way of joining wires that would be less susceptible to vibration? I think coating the stripped ends of the wire with dielectric grease would help with corrosion over a long period. Maybe wrapping the levers in tape would prevent any accidental opening. 2 Conductor Compact Splicing Connectors Lever-Nut Wire Connectors for 2... As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: Installing EMS-HW30 in a TK Reply #8 – January 07, 2020, 10:53:13 am Mike,In my other life I maintain a small tug and a commercial dive boat. ABYC specifies no wire nuts. Ever. When working with stranded wire, use crimped butt connectors with adhesive lined shrink tube insulation, like the ones below:Amazon.com: Ancor 220011 Heat Shrink Butt Connector Kit: AutomotiveI realize that wire nuts are often used in recreational vehicles, but using the crimped butt connectors is a secure connection that rarely separates or corrodes. That's how I connect wires. YMMV.Harold 1 Likes As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: Installing EMS-HW30 in a TK Reply #9 – January 07, 2020, 03:14:13 pm Thanks for the reply, Harold. You are right about the heat shrink butt connectors as a good way to go for both solid and stranded wire and I have plenty of these in my shop. I was also thinking about the best way to splice into an existing circuit more with solid conductor AC wire up to 10ga. I have used stranded CD wire crimp splice connectors and have plenty of these both in line or 'T' style. Mainly I was wondering if there was any pros or cons of using the lever nuts.
Re: Installing EMS-HW30 in a TK Reply #10 – January 07, 2020, 08:45:05 pm Hi Mike. I might use these as splices depending on the application's intended wire sizes and current. As Harold stated, not for wet areas. I absolutely avoid any aluminum, (those Morris parts)I don't care how much oxidation preventative (No-Alox) is used. Silicone grease may not be necessary, but might be ok. These splicers are copper. (99.99%) Hopefully no current flows through the springs. High current can heat up the springs so that they lose their temper, and then they don't work as springs. The levers probably stay in place, (hopefully no children fooling around the wiring, who wrote that ad...) so I don't think tape will be necessary. I didn't see any 'UL' listing, or NEC (National Electrical Code) mentioned, but the advertising wasn't very good with technical information. RonB
Re: Installing EMS-HW30 in a TK Reply #11 – January 12, 2020, 12:22:34 pm After seeing some reports of generators causing EMS error codes I contacted progressive industries. I was told the preferred location is inline with the power cord because that will protect the transfer switch from power surges. They did not see any need to run the generator power through the EMS “as long as maintenance is kept up on the generator”
Re: Installing EMS-HW30 in a TK Reply #12 – January 12, 2020, 01:12:13 pm Quote from: Jay Carlson - January 12, 2020, 12:22:34 pmAfter seeing some reports of generators causing EMS error codes I contacted progressive industries. I was told the preferred location is inline with the power cord because that will protect the transfer switch from power surges. They did not see any need to run the generator power through the EMS “as long as maintenance is kept up on the generator”If wired correctly, both the generator, shore power and transfer switch are monitored and protected against surges, incorrect wiring and voltage problems. I have wired many LDs with way, it isn't too difficult and I have never heard of anyone having issues with false error codes. The EMS-HW30 has been installed in dozens of forums members over the last two decades and I have not heard of many problems. Andy had one fail when struck by lightening but it was repairable .With decades of pro generator experience, I know generators can cause surging and voltage problems too, there is no reason why a surge protector should ever not be hardwired so the generator and transfer switch are protected too.Larry
Re: Installing EMS-HW30 in a TK Reply #13 – January 12, 2020, 01:28:36 pm Quote from: Blueox25 - January 07, 2020, 10:53:13 amMike,In my other life I maintain a small tug and a commercial dive boat. ABYC specifies no wire nuts. Ever. When working with stranded wire, use crimped butt connectors with adhesive lined shrink tube insulation, like the ones below:I realize that wire nuts are often used in recreational vehicles, but using the crimped butt connectors is a secure connection that rarely separates or corrodes. Crimped connectors are always used in high-reliability applications such as boats, aircraft, off-road machinery and other applications where failure can be deadly.The down side of using crimped connectors is that the wires are shortened any time an appliance is removed for repair or replacement unless a plug is installed. When using crimped connectors, without plugs,, make sure to proved a length of extra wire, know as a 'service loop' to allow future work without having to splice in more wire.Sure wish LD would provide longer 'service loops'. Try replacing an interior ceiling light or a rear tail light assembly.The wire nuts used by LD are usually only seen where disconnectable appliances are installed, such a lights, water pump, etc.I have not run across any LD installed wire nuts that were not properly done and they are always given a wrap of electrical tape to prevent loosening .The most common place to find poor connections is in the high-voltage side of the Power Center, the various terminals and lugs loosen as the copper wire wire distorts over time and looses contact . Some Power Centers reported on the forum have burned internally.Tightening of all the Power Center terminals should be periodically, after all the power, battery, solar and shore are disconnected. If any doubts remain about going this, have a pro do this. High voltage is not for play.Larry 1 Likes
Re: Installing EMS-HW30 in a TK Reply #14 – January 12, 2020, 09:27:50 pm Quote from: Larry W - January 12, 2020, 01:12:13 pmIf wired correctly, both the generator, shore power and transfer switch are monitored and protected against surges, incorrect wiring and voltage problems. I have wired many LDs with way, it isn't too difficult and I have never heard of anyone having issues with false error codes. The EMS-HW30 has been installed in dozens of forums members over the last two decades and I have not heard of many problems. Andy had one fail when struck by lightening but it was repairable .With decades of pro generator experience, I know generators can cause surging and voltage problems too, there is no reason why a surge protector should ever not be hardwired so the generator and transfer switch are protected too.LarryLarry, can you explain how to wire the EMS to protect the transfer switch as well as shore and generator power? It seams to me the transfer switch chooses to feed shore or generator power to the AC circuit breaker panel. So if the EMS is between the transfer switch and the circuit breaker panel the shore or generator power would be monitored, but the transfer switch would not be protected as either power source would run through it before going through the EMS.I don't know if there is much chance of damage to the transfer switch anyway, or how expensive that may be to repair.Progressive Industries did tell me a couple other things.1) E2 or E9 errors (when running the generator) can be stopped by connecting neutral to ground with a "bonding plug" (an AC plug wired to connect ground and neutral and plugged in to any AC outlet in the RV). 2) It is not recommended that the EMS be used in By-Pass mode when using one of the New style quite running inverted generators. These inverted generators produce a Pure Sine wave that the surge suppresion board can interpet as a surge and cause premature failure of the Surge board.I am getting ready to add an EMS to a 2005 50 amp Bigfoot RV that we now live in which has a 5.5kw Onan diesel generator. I have confirmed that neutral and ground are tied together (using one of those testers that plugs into a 20 amp outlet and shows two amber LEDS on and one red LED off if all is well) when the generator is running. Onan told me that my generator is not and inverter generator and does not produce a pure sine wave. I could wire the EMS before or after the transfer switch and probably would not expect problems other than the question of how is the transfer switch protected.In my 2003 RB I wired only the shore power through the EMS, placing the EMS under the bathroom closet bottom drawer. I don't recall if the generator power feed goes through that area. I don't know where the transfer switch is or where the EMS would be placed to run generator and shore power through it.
Re: Installing EMS-HW30 in a TK Reply #15 – January 13, 2020, 02:51:57 am Quote from: Jay Carlson - January 12, 2020, 09:27:50 pmLarry, can you explain how to wire the EMS to protect the transfer switch as well as shore and generator power? It seams to me the transfer switch chooses to feed shore or generator power to the AC circuit breaker panel. So if the EMS is between the transfer switch and the circuit breaker panel the shore or generator power would be monitored, but the transfer switch would not be protected as either power source would run through it before going through the EMS.I don't know if there is much chance of damage to the transfer switch anyway, or how expensive that may be to repair.I was mistaken saying the transfer switch would be protected, it wouldn't be.While transfer switches do fail, the few transfer switches I have replaced failed due to burnt relay contacts but it's possible a surge could damage the circuit that monetarily delays the transfer to generator power, when the generator is started, I can't remember hearing about this before.Generators have all sorts of electric issues than can effect the output, the reason why I prefer having it surge protector protected. With the generator output protected, the worse that can happen is a big surge taking out the transfer switch, a hundred dollar part.An unprotected generator with a failed voltage regulator could produce a high or low voltage that could damage any thing plugged in and on, think electronics, microwave, A/C and the converter. The transfer switch is a lot cheaper.Larry
Re: Installing EMS-HW30 in a TK Reply #16 – April 24, 2020, 12:23:22 am So I did get the surge protector installed. Mostly happy with it. It even exposed a bad ground at my pump house which was a bit of a surprise! Sure don't like the hum though. Not as bad as an ancient converter I had in another RV but still a hum.
Re: Installing EMS-HW30 in a TK Reply #17 – April 26, 2020, 01:38:46 am I have noticed the hum from the one I put in my Bigfoot. It is in the bedroom beyond the foot of the bed. The one in my LD 2003 RB was under the big closet in the rear bathroom. I never heard any hum but it was much farther from my bed.
Re: Installing EMS-HW30 in a TK Reply #18 – April 27, 2020, 10:36:40 am Steve,The hum is from the contactor, the electromagnetic relay in the controller that switches the 120 vac power ON\OFF to the coach electrical system. It is an indication that something isn't quite right, could be mechanical or electrical. I suggest you call Progressive tech support and discuss it with them. Bill 1 Likes
Re: Installing EMS-HW30 in a TK Reply #19 – April 30, 2020, 07:13:40 pm Thanks, I may give them a call. Seems like the buzz decreased some. Maybe the contacts are settling in.
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