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Topic: Update on my Intermittent Starting and Random Shutdown Issue : Banks Power (Read 1069 times) previous topic - next topic
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Update on my Intermittent Starting and Random Shutdown Issue : Banks Power
Since I've owned my 2003 MB, I've had problems with it having intermittent starting problems and random shutdowns.

Recently, I was driving on a 2 lane country road with no shoulder on my way to get propane. I was cruising along at about 50-55 mph when the LD engine just shut off and the check engine light came on. I lost power steering and power brakes. Thankfully, I was just about to pass by my Mother's church and was able to coast and use all my strength to make the right turn and pull over to the side (Thank you, God!).  I turned the key to the off position, waited about a minute then restarted. Everything was fine and I was able to get back to my Mother's house (too chicken to continue on to get the propane).

There was no way I was going to get back on the road without getting to the bottom of the issue. I could imagine myself out on the highway when another shutdown happened and maybe get myself hurt/killed.

My previous attempts to fix this issue have included:

If the LD would start after each of these changes, I would think I was successful... until it happened again.

Luckily, I have a lot of family members who drive Ford trucks and my Grand-Nephew was able to set me up with an Authorized Ford Mechanic (formerly a Master Tech for Ford) who had his own shop about 6 miles away.

For nearly a month (I had to wait my turn for service) in his shop, they went about checking codes on an official Ford code reader, cleaning a dirty sensor and dirty air filter, checking wires to make sure there were no loose connections and fixing the negative terminal clamp on my new battery (it was very loose). None of those fixes corrected the problem, though they were helpful in general. The same kind of shutdown on his test drives. Eventually, we came to the same conclusion about what the problem was.

After the mechanic mentioned that there might be an issue with the PCM, I started searching for posts that mentioned PCM issues and found these threads:
Update: Ford engine quits - Banks Chip removed. fixed?
Ford 450 engine quits

Quote
The next problem's not so benign. In fact, it could be fatal.
 Out of the blue, with no warning, the engine simple QUITS. Usually at highway speeds, but has occurred at in-town speeds. Sea level to 5,000', various terrain - - uphill, downhill, flat, engine warm, transmission temp withing normal range - - nothing seems to make a difference. When the engine quits, the power steering and brakes go out, of course. The first time was in the evening 6-8 weeks ago, driving home on a narrow, winding, 2-lane highway in Southern California, at dusk. Sheesh. Thank God there was a wide spot to pull off, but with no brakes + really tough steering; well, it was pretty harry.

That quote really hit the mark with me.

I printed out the threads and beelined over to the mechanic. He told me he was already on it because the Banks Power module that connects to the PCM has been known to work its way loose over time (he's has a Facebook acquaintance with the owner of Banks Power and is familiar with the issue). That was true in my case. It was loose and shorting out communication with the PCM... intermittently. So he removed it, cleaned it, used some dielectric grease and double duct-taped it back on to the PCM. It turns out that is the standard procedure for this issue. He drove it several times on various types of roads (the bumpier the better). Started the engine at various times of day in various weather conditions (it's sometimes hot and sometimes very cold and rainy here in the Hill Country of Texas). He also updated the PCM software (firmware?) because mine was out of date.

I picked it up today and so far so good but I'm still a gun shy. I head back toward California in early January. I'll get several drives in around this area before then and hope the issue is fixed. I'll be visiting the Banks folks in Azusa when I get back to California.

Wish me luck! :-)
My wheels:
2003 MB
2012 Jeep Liberty
Re: Update on my Intermittent Starting and Random Shutdown Issue : Banks Power
Reply #1 –
"Wish me luck! :-)"

It never rains but what... !

By the way, did you find a fix for the tripped breaker???
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: Update on my Intermittent Starting and Random Shutdown Issue : Banks Power
Reply #2 –
Quote from: Lazy Bones  - 

By the way, did you find a fix for the tripped breaker???

I think that may be someone else. My breakers are good (at least I have that going for me). :-)
My wheels:
2003 MB
2012 Jeep Liberty
Re: Update on my Intermittent Starting and Random Shutdown Issue : Banks Power
Reply #3 –
"I tried to reset the breaker again today and there was a flash of red at the breaker for a split second and no change."

"I think that may be someone else."

Wasn't that you who was having trouble with a GFI Breaker???
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: Update on my Intermittent Starting and Random Shutdown Issue : Banks Power
Reply #5 –
Deb, hoping the latest repair did the trick and wishing you safe travels back to California!
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: Update on my Intermittent Starting and Random Shutdown Issue : Banks Power
Reply #6 –
"I do see a thread started by desertdivanm..."

Oops, sorry bout that, I got my tongue tangled around my eyeteeth and couldn't see what I was sayin!

 ::)   8)
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: Update on my Intermittent Starting and Random Shutdown Issue : Banks Power
Reply #7 –
Deb,

Locating electrical issues can be tricky even for the professional. It sounds like your mechanic has isolated the issue from your description.

I have a local mechanic we’ve been going to for decades (showing my age) and while he usually gets it right the first time there have been cases where the issue can escape him. So far he has always been successful in diagnosing and repairing our vehicles.

Safe travels back to California. Sounds like it should be smooth sailing.

Kent
2015 27' RB "MissB.Haven"
Re: Update on my Intermittent Starting and Random Shutdown Issue : Banks Power
Reply #8 –
Hi Debbie. At least the engine shut down with the mechanic driving. Often there is a credibility gap until they see it happen. A friend had intermittent starts/run  and it turned out to be the 'crank angle sensor'. The engine computer latched a failure code in the 'check engine' light, after about the fourth time. Replacing that sensor fixed the problem. I was surprised that the 'check engine' light didn't come on the first time.  RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: Update on my Intermittent Starting and Random Shutdown Issue : Banks Power
Reply #9 –
Quote from: debinvenice  - 
Since I've owned my 2003 MB, I've had problems with it having intermittent starting problems and random shutdowns.

Recently, I was driving on a 2 lane country road with no shoulder on my way to get propane. I was cruising along at about 50-55 mph when the LD engine just shut off and the check engine light came on. I lost power steering and power brakes.
After the mechanic mentioned that there might be an issue with the PCM, I started searching for posts that mentioned PCM issues and found these threads:

Since you have a Banks system, do you also have the K&N air "filter" that is often part of that system?  It is notorious for fouling the idle air control on Ford V10 and causing random stalling.  It caused that problem on our 1999 (admittedly a different version of the V10, but still....)
Re: Update on my Intermittent Starting and Random Shutdown Issue : Banks Power
Reply #10 –
I too have a banks system 55,000 miles no trouble (yet), hope never.

I hope you will follow  through with your visit to Banks factory in Jan.

Thanks for the info, made a copy for my files.

Bob
2007 31 IB
Re: Update on my Intermittent Starting and Random Shutdown Issue : Banks Power
Reply #11 –
Quote from: Michelle C  - 
Since you have a Banks system, do you also have the K&N air "filter" that is often part of that system?  It is notorious for fouling the idle air control on Ford V10 and causing random stalling.  It caused that problem on our 1999 (admittedly a different version of the V10, but still....)

Thanks for the info. I'm not sure what kind of filter is used. I do know they removed the air filter because it was full of bugs and dust. They soaked it in Dawn overnight and rinsed it a few times (I was told it was reusable). I'll find out when I get back to So. Cal.

I do plan to take a short trip 2 hours away next week to make sure everything is alright.
My wheels:
2003 MB
2012 Jeep Liberty
Re: Update on my Intermittent Starting and Random Shutdown Issue : Banks Power
Reply #12 –
Quote from: Bob Wilson  - 
I too have a banks system 55,000 miles no trouble (yet), hope never.

I hope you will follow  through with your visit to Banks factory in Jan.

Thanks for the info, made a copy for my files.

Bob

I'll make sure to update after my visit. I haven't made an appointment because I'm not quite sure when I'll be there. It could be February.
My wheels:
2003 MB
2012 Jeep Liberty
Re: Update on my Intermittent Starting and Random Shutdown Issue : Banks Power
Reply #13 –
Thank you

Bob
2007 31 IB
Re: Update on my Intermittent Starting and Random Shutdown Issue : Banks Power
Reply #14 –
"They soaked it in Dawn overnight and rinsed it a few times (I was told it was reusable)."

That would be the K&N filter. It has a coarser mesh, in order to let in more air. That supposedly yields increased power, although in my experience it was not noticeable. But a coarser mesh means more crap gets through, and that's hard on your engine.

I had the Banks conversion done on my 2003 midbath, but I got rid of the K&N filter for the reason Michelle (and others in the past) mentioned, and went back to using disposable Ford-style filters.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Update on my Intermittent Starting and Random Shutdown Issue : Banks Power
Reply #15 –
Quote from: debinvenice  - 
I think that may be someone else. My breakers are good (at least I have that going for me). :-)


I know of several early 2000's LDs, with the full Banks package, that had the same thing happen, the engine suddenly stops.
The problem was caused the Banks add-on module, the fix was to remove it until a new one could be installed or the contracts cleaned and tightened. It should run fine without it.
The sudden stall issue is one of the reasons why I never installed a Bank's kit. An unexpected stall In the right place could easily be deadly.
The stock engine control computer system is extremely dependable, I don't recall this happening to a stock engine. It did happen to most of my friends who owned early 2000's LDs with a Bank's system. Hmmm.
Ford spent a lot more more time and money in reliability testing than Bank's could ever afford, I would rather give up a little extra power for a higher degree of dependability, YMMV.

If you continue to use the module, learn how to remove it yourself and set things back to stock, in case it dies in the middle of nowhere.

Larry

Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Update on my Intermittent Starting and Random Shutdown Issue : Banks Power
Reply #16 –
Larry, it's kind of like snowmobiles if you modify them your stock buddy can still out run you. Some things are better left alone.

Jon
1994 MB
Re: Update on my Intermittent Starting and Random Shutdown Issue : Banks Power
Reply #17 –
Larry, where is the Banks module? Is there a photo of the location anywhere online? The friends who bought my Banks-equipped 2003 midbath might need to know someday.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Update on my Intermittent Starting and Random Shutdown Issue : Banks Power
Reply #18 –
Quote from: Andy Baird  - 
Larry, where is the Banks module? Is there a photo of the location anywhere online? The friends who bought my Banks-equipped 2003 midbath might need to know someday.

PCM (powertrain control module) is located in the engine bay, high on the firewall, to the right of the air intake hose and to the left of the steering shaft.
It doesn't look like much, just a rubber plug with a single bolt securing it. The PCM is sunk into the firewall.
The Bank's module is piggy-backed with the PCM. The PCM is unplugged and the module is inserted in-between the PCM and its plug.  I don't have any photos of the module or it installed.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/albums/72157712133464272



Looking at Bank's site, it does not show the engine module to be available anymore, only 2005 and later 6.8L V10s can have the PCM's programing modified using a handheld programmer. They possibly had so many issues with it that is was discontinued .
Today's Banks kits for 2004 and earlier V10s do not have any intervention in the engine controls, the kit only consist of an air cleaner, exhaust manifolds,  exhaust pipes and muffler .

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Update on my Intermittent Starting and Random Shutdown Issue : Banks Power
Reply #19 –
Another update.

The Banks Power module has been removed.

I began to have starting issues again. Luckily, I'm still near the shop that worked on it (until next Tuesday when I start to head back to California). The mechanic made a "house call" and used his Ford specific OBDII reader and said for sure the Banks module was sending weird codes to the PCM and it would be better to remove it since I can still drive without it. So it was removed.

I still plan to go to the Banks folks while I'm in California to see what they can do for me.
My wheels:
2003 MB
2012 Jeep Liberty
Re: Update on my Intermittent Starting and Random Shutdown Issue : Banks Power
Reply #20 –
Thanks, much appreciated.

Bob
2007 31 IB
Re: Update on my Intermittent Starting and Random Shutdown Issue : Banks Power
Reply #21 –
Debinvenice,
I've had good luck with Banks standing behind their products.  They installed some mods to get more torque from my 7.3L diesel and I also got their trans command to lock the torque converter for heavy towing without transmission "hunting".  Even John Wood  (John Wood Transmissions) liked their trans-command and left it in after installing his transmission.  I had a few hickups with the exhaust brake and  I took it to their facility in Azusa and they took care of everything and got the truck running perfectly.  No problems ever since.
I hope they do as well for you.
Harold
2014 27 MB
Towd: Either the Jeep Wrangler or trailer containing the BMW R1200GS and 2 E-bicycles
Happy wife=Happy life
Re: Update on my Intermittent Starting and Random Shutdown Issue : Banks Power
Reply #22 –
Here is the long-awaited (at least by me) update on my Banks Power problem.

My appointment was at 8 am this morning at their fabrication and installation facility in Azusa, CA. I arrived about 15 minutes early as it is difficult to find parking for an RV on the street.

Promptly at 8:00 am, Matt picked up the keys and moved my LD to the service area to run the diagnostics tests ($119). I hung around outside of a service area for about 20 mins just because I'm nosey but really couldn't tell what was going on other that some big machine connected to the LD while the engine was running.

About an hour after the tests started another employee gave me the news that the chip in the module was defective. I later learned that during the early part of the test, everything seemed to be fine but after the engine warmed up, the chip caused the engine to shut down.

The bill would have been about $550 including the diagnostics along with parts, labor, and tax (they gave me a 20% discount on the part). Per the mechanic in Texas (who told me the chip was bad), I asked for the price difference for the new OBDII port programmer and if it would be difficult to install. I was told it would be an easy install (I think they just neede to program and test drive the LD). The price difference was still under $600 with the same 20% discount. I chose the newer version (AutoMind Programmer w/EconoMind Features Hand-held flash programmer) because I can program, update or use it to revert to the engine's factory settings myself.

All in all, I was in and out in less than 2 hours. So far so good. I will post if any new or old issues pop up. :-)

P.S. - The Mothership was only about 16 miles away so I stopped in there as well for some pieces and parts.
My wheels:
2003 MB
2012 Jeep Liberty
Re: Update on my Intermittent Starting and Random Shutdown Issue : Banks Power
Reply #23 –
Deb,
Congratulations!  I hope this eliminates the irritating problem and allows you to get out and have fun with your Lazy Daze!

Harold
2014 27 MB
Towd: Either the Jeep Wrangler or trailer containing the BMW R1200GS and 2 E-bicycles
Happy wife=Happy life
Re: Update on my Intermittent Starting and Random Shutdown Issue : Banks Power
Reply #24 –
Good news, the new chip should be more dependable than the old, too many folks suffered the same issue you had and they all were caused by defectives chips.
Banks has a great campus, it's where they develop the performance gear used in a wide variety of applications from military vehicles to RVs to race cars to trucks, , both of my Jeep have Banks exhaust systems.

Now you can make to Morro Bay without worry, full speed ahead.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze