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Topic: GFCI Circuit Breaker Problem - Any Ideas? (Read 692 times) previous topic - next topic
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GFCI Circuit Breaker Problem - Any Ideas?
Since I didn't want to stay home alone for the holidays I took a big trip to Deming from Las Cruces in my Lazy Daze and planned to stay at the Low-Hi RV Ranch where I have a lot of friends for a month.  I'm scheduled for my 2nd hip replacement on December 30th. 

I drove in a lot of rain, got to the RV park and plugged in my electric heater.  The breaker tripped in the middle of the night and I have no power in any of the outlets.  However, the microwave is still getting power.  "Helpful people" told me I needed to reset the breaker (that is usually on the outlet in the bathroom) but there isn't one.  The breaker/fuse box is to the side of the sink directly across from the door in my 1998 mid-bath.  A guy tried to reset it, checked all the fuses, etc... but "no bueno."  I drove to Lowe's and got a new 15 amp breaker (the one in the middle with the reset button) and he replaced it.  Still no good. 

Gee, if anyone has suggestions I'd appreciate them.  I'm ready to "tuck tail" and go home as the local RV repair is booked solid this time of year.  I'm "hoping" it's an easy fix I've overlooked, but if not I guess I'll be heading back to Las Cruces as I can't deal with RV issues and hip pain.

Cheryl (a.k.a. Desert Diva)
1998 Lazy Daze (26.5 mid-bath)
2002 Honda CR-V
Re: GFI Circuit Breaker Problem - Any Ideas?
Reply #1 –
Bandaid #1.  You have an electric heater.  You have a working Microwave.   The microwave probable plugs into a 2 plug outlet.
Plug in to the unused outlet.  Don't use both at the same time.    If it trips the breaker the microwave, the heater may be bad.
No guarantees.
Joel
Joel & Terry Wiley
dog Zeke
2013  31 IB   Orwan   / 2011 CRV Tow'd LWEROVE
Re: GFI Circuit Breaker Problem - Any Ideas?
Reply #2 –
To expand on what Joel said: in most midbaths, the microwave oven plugs into a duplex outlet that's located w-a-y back in the kitchen cabinet over the sink--back toward the outer wall. Shine a flashlight back in there, and you'll see it. Plug your heater into that outlet as a temporary workaround. Use a short heavy-duty extension cord if necessary.

If that doesn't work, you could bring an extension cord in directly from the power post, via a cab door or window.

Root cause: quite possibly a GFCI outlet located on the end of your kitchen counter, under the counter extension. looks like a regular duplex outlet, but with two pushbuttons in the middle. When tripped, that GFCI will take out all household outlets, but not the microwave oven. Try pushing the reset button.

If the GFCI trips right away when you try to reset it, suspect the outside AC outlet (located aft of the entry door). What happened to me a few times was that heavy rains caused water to seep into the outside AC outlet, and that caused the GFCI to trip. If that turns out to be the cause in your case, it will probably start working (stop tripping the GFCI) in a day or two, once it dries out again. In the long run, you'll need to remove and reseal that outside outlet.

Hope this helps!
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: GFI Circuit Breaker Problem - Any Ideas?
Reply #3 –
Quote from: joel wiley  - 
Bandaid #1.  You have an electric heater.  You have a working Microwave.   The microwave probable plugs into a 2 plug outlet.
Plug in to the unused outlet.  Don't use both at the same time.    If it trips the breaker the microwave, the heater may be bad.
No guarantees.
Joel
The heater is actually brand new and for now I ran a separate heavy duty extension cord through the rear window on the 20 amp plug and it works fine.  Not quite sure where the microwave plugs in, and I can't currently bend past 90 degrees but I'll ask someone to look for me.  Thanks for responding Joel. 
Cheryl (a.k.a. Desert Diva)
1998 Lazy Daze (26.5 mid-bath)
2002 Honda CR-V
Re: GFI Circuit Breaker Problem - Any Ideas?
Reply #4 –
"Not quite sure where the microwave plugs in,..."

You will find it in the cabinet space behind the microwave.  ;)
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: GFI Circuit Breaker Problem - Any Ideas?
Reply #5 –
 Open the upper cabinet to the left of the microwave oven. Look inside the cabinet, toward the outside wall. (In other words, to your right as you face the cabinet.) You should see the outlet there.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: GFI Circuit Breaker Problem - Any Ideas?
Reply #6 –
Quote from: Andy Baird  - 
If the GFCI trips right away when you try to reset it, suspect the outside AC outlet (located aft of the entry door). What happened to me a few times was that heavy rains caused water to seep into the outside AC outlet, and that caused the GFCI to trip. If that turns out to be the cause in your case, it will probably start working (stop tripping the GFCI) in a day or two, once it dries out again. In the long run, you'll need to remove and reseal that outside outlet.

Andy’s observation would my first suspected trouble spot.  Could you use a heat gun or hairdryer to dry the outside outlet?  
Re: GFI Circuit Breaker Problem - Any Ideas?
Reply #7 –
Hi Cheryl. Andy is most likely correct. You have an outside outlet on the passenger side that is poorly done. I bought a used 2001 MB for some friends. One of the first things it needed was a new type outlet, and newer designed cover. I got the type with a separate cover over each outlet. Those things are designed to be drip proof, but better in a sheltered location. At speed and a 60 mph 'wind' I'm sure they get water inside. My installation was more robust than the factory provides. I added more caulking around the outlet-to-box spaces, and the box to cut-out area. Let dry, then installed the provided flat gasket, with  a dab of sealant to stick it in place. The cover then goes on. The individual flaps seem strong enough not to lift out in high winds. Haven't had any problems reported by my friends, but maybe they haven't been in the right weather situation with 110VAC available.
   With water, there will be some conduction from the hot side to neutral. Interpreted as a 'Ground Fault' the entire circuit will shut off and be non resettable until the one outlet dries out enough. The old GFCI breaker is likely good, it was doing it's job.
    A hair dryer can dry out the suspect outlet. The other outlet inside the refrigerator door compartment, just behind the driver door can also have gotten wet, but it is more protected, so likely it isn't the problem.   RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: GFI Circuit Breaker Problem - Any Ideas?
Reply #8 –

Hi Cheryl. Thought I'd include a picture of the outlet. You can see the black sealant . Dynaflex 230 in black. EPDM, not silicone. I got a tube for a caulking gun, https://www.amazon.com/18280-DYNAFLEX-Black-Building-Material/dp/B000BQWXEO/ref=sr_1_15?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI2seRxfmY5gIVlsRkCh2JkwjzEAMYASAAEgJcxPD_BwE&hvadid=385643578510&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9031352&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1o1&hvqmt=e&hvrand=15930766895280397682&hvtargid=aud-835997443427%3Akwd-333841253934&hydadcr=4818_9473749&keywords=dynaflex+230+caulk&qid=1575358095&sr=8-15 but there must be a smaller amount squeeze tube available somewhere.
    Tried to match the faded color of the motorhome, but couldn't get the gloss quite right. I did polish up and wax the surface and the box cover, so it looked better than this picture.     RonB

As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: GFI Circuit Breaker Problem - Any Ideas?
Reply #9 –
"The other outlet inside the refrigerator door compartment, just behind the driver door can also have gotten wet, but it is more protected, so likely it isn't the problem."

Good point, Ron--that outlet is on the same circuit as the interior outlets and the exterior outlet we've been talking about, so if it ever did get wet, you'd see the same tripped-GFCI problem Cheryl has. That said, I've never heard of that one getting wet. But if I had a mystery problem like Cheryl's, and the outside outlet turned out not to be the cause, that outlet in the fridge compartment would be the next thing I'd check.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker Problem - Any Ideas?
Reply #10 –
Quote from: Andy Baird  - 
"The other outlet inside the refrigerator door compartment, just behind the driver door can also have gotten wet, but it is more protected, so likely it isn't the problem."

Good point, Ron--that outlet is on the same circuit as the interior outlets and the exterior outlet we've been talking about, so if it ever did get wet, you'd see the same tripped-GFCI problem Cheryl has. That said, I've never heard of that one getting wet. But if I had a mystery problem like Cheryl's, and the outside outlet turned out not to be the cause, that outlet in the fridge compartment would be the next thing I'd check.
[/quote

I feel like an idiot, but I don't have an outside outlet on my 1998 mid-bath on the passenger side of the motor home.   I only have the additional outlet where the back of the refrigerator is on the driver side.  I actually called Todd at the Mothership to check and he told me to send a pic of the side of my rig!

I tried to reset the breaker again today and there was a flash of red at the breaker for a split second and no change.  Still trying to get into the RV repair in Deming.

I'll try drying the outlet on the refrigerator department tomorrow with a hair dryer.  It just doesn't make sense...
Cheryl (a.k.a. Desert Diva)
1998 Lazy Daze (26.5 mid-bath)
2002 Honda CR-V
Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker Problem - Any Ideas?
Reply #11 –
Quote from: RonB  - 
Hi Cheryl. Andy is most likely correct. You have an outside outlet on the passenger side that is poorly done. I bought a used 2001 MB for some friends. One of the first things it needed was a new type outlet, and newer designed cover. I got the type with a separate cover over each outlet. Those things are designed to be drip proof, but better in a sheltered location. At speed and a 60 mph 'wind' I'm sure they get water inside. My installation was more robust than the factory provides. I added more caulking around the outlet-to-box spaces, and the box to cut-out area. Let dry, then installed the provided flat gasket, with  a dab of sealant to stick it in place. The cover then goes on. The individual flaps seem strong enough not to lift out in high winds. Haven't had any problems reported by my friends, but maybe they haven't been in the right weather situation with 110VAC available.
  With water, there will be some conduction from the hot side to neutral. Interpreted as a 'Ground Fault' the entire circuit will shut off and be non resettable until the one outlet dries out enough. The old GFCI breaker is likely good, it was doing it's job.
    A hair dryer can dry out the suspect outlet. The other outlet inside the refrigerator door compartment, just behind the driver door can also have gotten wet, but it is more protected, so likely it isn't the problem.  RonB
Ron, perhaps the outside duplex 110 outlet was optional??? I don't have one on my '02 30'; however, I do have a covered cable jack and phone outlet on the driver's side rear. I'm guessing all models have this. Wonder if that could have shorted out due to water intrusion?

Chris
Formerly: 2002 30' IB
Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker Problem - Any Ideas?
Reply #12 –
"perhaps the outside duplex 110 outlet was optional?"

Good point, Chris! It was indeed optional in 2003, when my rig was built, so that would explain why Cheryl's 1998 doesn't have one. Most LDs I've seen have it, and I had plumb forgotten that not all did.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker Problem - Any Ideas?
Reply #13 –
I too had trouble with the outside passenger side outlet on a Mid-Bath.

The outlet is 'back-stabbed' which means that the wires are held in by springs instead of mechanically secured with screws.

Over time, moisture caused the springs to rust.  They wouldn't hold the wires securely causing the downstream (electrically speaking) outlet under the TV to be intermittent. 

Our RVs are generally very well constructed, but I wish the factory would use the more reliable side terminal screws instead of backstabbing the 120v outlets.

In any case, that outside outlet does develop problems after a while.  Lots of good advice here.

Rich
'03 MB in NC
2003 MB
Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker Problem - Any Ideas?
Reply #14 –
On our 1997 mid-bath, the microwave was over the stove. Its outlet was behind the barometer/control panel, to the left of the microwave.

Also, that coach did not have a 120V outlet mounted to the outside of the coach. There was an outlet inside the refrigerator exterior access door.

I'm concerned that it seems Cheryl has not found a 120VAC outlet with the GFCI test/reset buttons, yet. There should be one. I vaguely remember the 1997 bathroom outlet (the one under the cabinet above the sink) being the GFCI outlet, but could be incorrect on that. In any case, until Cheryl finds a GFCI and tests it, then any other diagnostic steps could be misleading. On the 1997, the outlets were brown in color, so it was tough to see the GFCI buttons without a flashlight shining on them.

Mark

P.S.- I had to re-wire that bathroom outlet, having put a drill bit through the Romex (wire) that fed it (blind drilling has its drawbacks). The outlet is in an impossibly small box, with wires that are too short. Not a fun task.
Former owner, 31-foot gas Class A
Former owner, 1997-8 mid-bath
Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker Problem - Any Ideas?
Reply #15 –
Quote from: l1v3fr33ord13  - 
On our 1997 mid-bath, the microwave was over the stove. Its outlet was behind the barometer/control panel, to the left of the microwave.

That's exactly where my microwave (and outlet) are in my 1998 mid-bath.

Also, that coach did not have a 120V outlet mounted to the outside of the coach. There was an outlet inside the refrigerator exterior access door.

Again, exactly the same on my Lazy Daze.

I'm concerned that it seems Cheryl has not found a 120VAC outlet with the GFCI test/reset buttons, yet. There should be one. I vaguely remember the 1997 bathroom outlet (the one under the cabinet above the sink) being the GFCI outlet, but could be incorrect on that. In any case, until Cheryl finds a GFCI and tests it, then any other diagnostic steps could be misleading. On the 1997, the outlets were brown in color, so it was tough to see the GFCI buttons without a flashlight shining on them.

I just woke up and went into the bathroom and the outlet you described is in the corner top corner underneath the overhead cabinet.  As you said, it's brown but I couldn't find any reset button.  There are just the two plugs.  However, there is a sticker on the outlet that says GFCI Protected Outlet.  I'm going to take the screws out and the cover off and see what's underneath.

Mark

P.S.- I had to re-wire that bathroom outlet, having put a drill bit through the Romex (wire) that fed it (blind drilling has its drawbacks). The outlet is in an impossibly small box, with wires that are too short. Not a fun task.
Cheryl (a.k.a. Desert Diva)
1998 Lazy Daze (26.5 mid-bath)
2002 Honda CR-V
Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker Problem - Any Ideas?
Reply #16 –
GFCI protected outlet stickers  are put on outlets down line from the GFCI device.   The neutral / hot currents are unbalanced. 
unplug all devices including the refrigerator and see if it clears.

In an industrial setting, I have seen a 700HP motor drive detect a ground fault one transformers upstream and shutdown.  it was a 2400 volt to 120 volt fan transformer with excess wire sitting in a flooded bucket, inside of a 5,000,000 watt step down transformer.

Is the pedestal ground  or neutral connections poor??
Rodney
1988 Mid Bath
Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker Problem - Any Ideas?
Reply #17 –
Cheryl-

That sticker means there should be a GFCI outlet elsewhere in the coach. The coach maker applies the stickers on the other outlets connected to the GFCI outlet, as a way of helping us remember to look for/reset the GFCI when the outlet is dead.

Below is a snippet from the 1997 owner's manual. The GFCI outlet may be in the kitchen? Also, check the one under the exterior refrigerator access door.

Mark H.





Former owner, 31-foot gas Class A
Former owner, 1997-8 mid-bath
Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker Problem - Any Ideas?
Reply #18 –
In our 1994 mid bath, the GFI outlet was to the right of the light fixture over the counter just left of the stove. The sticker on the bathroom outlet just means that outlet is protected by an up stream GFI outlet or possibly a breaker in the distribution panel.

Jon
1994 MB
Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker Problem - Any Ideas?
Reply #19 –
Ok. In my coach, the GFCI device is located in the electrical panel. It is the device with the white test button on it. All outlets except the microwave are downstream and protected by this one circuit breaker in the panel. In a Mid bath, under the sink.
Cheryl, don't take that outlet in the bathroom apart, it is just a normal looking outlet, unless you think it has been compromised by water or is defective.
    I was unaware that the outside outlet was optional, I seem to remember that all MB's had them, but can't say that I really noticed coaches that did't have them.
    If you are still having a 'no reset' problem, take out the outside outlet, disconnect the wires. A 'back stab' outlet has a small hole near the wire entry. Pushing into it with a small screwdriver will release the wire. I'd  say cut it off, but LD is notoriously unwilling to leave any extra, and it may be a shallow box. Put wire nuts over the bare wire ends and tape them up (black vinyl electrical tape). Push them into the back of the outlet box, and put a Bell box blank off outdoor rated cover on it (with gasket).
    That should enable you to reset the GFCI and regain power in your other indoor outlets. 
     A GFCI will also trip, be unable to be reset, if there is a short anywhere else. Rats have been a problem around here, but I can't think of where the internal 110VAC wiring could be affected, unless they have gotten inside.      RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker Problem - Any Ideas?
Reply #20 –
This thread is beginning to take on the tone of an Agatha Christie mystery. I can't wait to find out "whodunnit".🤔

Chris
Formerly: 2002 30' IB
Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker Problem - Any Ideas?
Reply #21 –
Chris, I think Colonel Mustard did it, in the library!
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker Problem - Any Ideas?
Reply #22 –
Cheryl;  I noticed in a recent photo that Steve and Carol Crisp have a midbath. They have a 110vAC outlet on the external driverside behind the rear wheel and next to a sewer hose hatch. So evidently you could have the same outlet. Everything I posted about the external outlets would apply to this one also.  Any water intrusion would look to the GFCI as if you had dropped a toaster in the bathtub. It shuts off the power in as little as 40 milliseconds, for a current flow to ground as small as 4 thousanths of an amp. Additionally a circuit breaker type will protect from over currents 10 to 25 Amps (marked on the handle) the same as a regular breaker.  
    If I had this problem I would rewire the external outlets in the coach to have their own GFCI breaker. There is enough empty space in the distribution center. Two separate GFCI's in the coach would allow you to separate the house inside outlets from the outside outlets. Your total current would, of course, stay at 30 Amps total.   RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: GFCI Circuit Breaker Problem - Any Ideas?
Reply #23 –
Hopefully by now, Cheryl aka Desert Diva, has her new hip and solved her Lazy Daze electrical mystery.

So Cheryl, how about telling all the folks who tried to help you out. What did the problem turn out to be and how was it resolved?

Steve K.
Steve K

2003 Mid-bath