Battery/Solar Problem September 07, 2019, 03:43:24 pm In the middle of May, we stored the LD and didn't return to it until the middle of August. I turned off the Blue Sky 3000i with the switch I had AM Solar put in when they installed the controller last summer. I also disconnected the Trojans with the disconnect switch. It has been stored and still is at a facility in Fountain Hills, AZ where, needless to say, it is HOT.When we got back to it 3 weeks ago and connected the batts they read 12.0 with no load. I checked the water and they were full. I turned the solar back on and everything appeared to be working fine. Solar was charging the batteries. We've been back in several times to get stuff out and all appeared OK with the batts and solar.Today I went over and the batts were reading 10.4V and there were no amps coming in from the solar panels although the display was working. I suspected a fuse failure somewhere with the solar but the only one I'm sure of is the 20amp fuse installed at the converter panel and it appeared to be OK. When it's cooler tomorrow morning probably I'm going to look in the connection boxes on the two LD installed panels to see if they put a fuse in either of them.Is there a fuse on the back of the Blue Sky and does anyone know where it would be? Also, does anyone have any other ideas other than a fuse problem? If it is a fuse why would it blow? Is the issue related to the high ambient heat?Nothing is on in the rig the frig is shut off and doors cracked open. The only draws would be the propane detector and whatever minimal power goes to the dash radio when it's not on.Jim
Re: Battery/Solar Problem Reply #1 – September 07, 2019, 05:56:27 pm Jim, AM Solar did the installation, so I think they should be the ones to ask about what might be the issue.Ken F in WY
Re: Battery/Solar Problem Reply #2 – September 07, 2019, 06:04:50 pm Jim, I have a 3000i, installed by AM Solar, but I did not receive a manual; did you? If not, maybe this will be useful.https://sunforgellc.com/wp-content/themes/sunforge/manuals/SB3000i_Manual.pdf
Re: Battery/Solar Problem Reply #3 – September 07, 2019, 06:17:57 pm Thanks, Ken. I plan on calling them Monday when they're open.Thanks, Joan. I do have a manual and while it mentions fuses a few times I'm not sure where it is. I'm assuming it is on the backside of the controller but it was too hot to mess with today. The link was helpful because I could search the document for the term fuse.I also recall that on the previous days we visited the LD I recall the display always showing 12.7 or 12.8. I have it set to alternate showing the voltage and amps in so it may have been showing amps in when I looked but if it was voltage that isn't as high as it should have been given the batteries should have been charged. If they were charged it should have been reading from 13.6 to 13.2.Jim
Re: Battery/Solar Problem Reply #4 – September 07, 2019, 10:09:30 pm Hi Jim,How old are your batteries and could it be that they need replaced? I cover my LD from mid November until mid April. Prior to covering the LD, I make sure my batteries are properly watered and charged and then I turn off the batteries. The rig then sits through northern Ohio winters. Whenever I do turn the batteries back on to exercise the genset, the solar controller and my SeeLevel monitor will each read the battery voltage around 12.6 volts. You mentioned that your display only read 12 volts after being off for 3 months. I think they should have been reading much closer to 12.6 after being off for 3 months. That would make me suspect your batteries have a problem and not the solar system.I would shut the batteries off for around an hour and use a battery hydrometer to check each cell's electrolyte. That could reveal a weak cell or more. While I am not a battery expert, I have been led to believe that heat can be harder on batteries than cold weather. To me, it sounds like you need new batteries.Good luck,Steve K.
Re: Battery/Solar Problem Reply #5 – September 08, 2019, 11:33:06 am Steve, it's certainly possible that I need new batteries. They were purchased in January 2014 and I've also heard that heat can be hard on batteries as well but I don't know if that's true or not.My first goal at the moment is to determine what's going on with the controller.Thanks for the replyJim
Re: Battery/Solar Problem Reply #6 – September 08, 2019, 12:30:10 pm Jim,The controller needs 12 v battery to operate correctly.The typical load off voltage setting is 11.5. Charging likely turns off then also. 10.4 is a strong indicator of a shorted cell.You should see some PV voltage above 13 at the controller connection during sun shine.In cars the battery is checked before the alternator.
Re: Battery/Solar Problem Reply #7 – September 08, 2019, 12:52:06 pm Rodney has that one dead on. Each cell is 2.2 volts. If you add that to 10.4 you would have 12.6, so I'm sure that one of your Trojan batteries has a shorted cell. Pretty much no recovery for that. Two new batterires should be the cure. Not fuses. Blown fuses would result in no readings. You can find which cell by taking the caps off, and dipping the voltmeter leads in the acid of adjacent cells. You can read the 2.2 vdc of each cell. It is likely that a piece of lead sulfide material 'flaked' off from the plate because of the heat, and during charging when you turned everything back on, it fell to the bottom of the cell and shorted it out. It happened to me years ago in 115 degree weather in Las Vegas. Made it to Costco in Mesquite for new batteries. RonB 1 Likes
Re: Battery/Solar Problem Reply #8 – September 08, 2019, 04:09:02 pm I checked it out this morning. I have three panels two of the original LD installed panels that were AM Solar 100 watt and a third added years ago that is a Grape Solar 160 watt.I lifted the first of the two 100 watt panels closest to the controller and it had a 15 amp fuse which was blown. Replaced the fuse and the solar panels were working. At the time I replaced the fuse I had previously started the engine and was running the dash AC to exercise it. I had the solar panel switch turned off.I turned it on and it was registering again with the engine on. I started the generator and had the roof AC running to exercise both of them and to cool the interior. There are no fuses at the 2nd or 3rd panels.I turned off the generator and then the engine. Shortly after turning off the engine the fuse on the panel blew again. Does this still make you think it is the batteries?Jim
Re: Battery/Solar Problem Reply #9 – September 08, 2019, 04:30:35 pm Ron and Rodney, something I forgot to add is that when I went over yesterday and discovered the problem I connected the Pro Fill and it took a lot of water. Could that have killed a cell and do you think that the triple-digit heat and charging them via solar caused them to lose water so quickly? That water loss happened it approx 3 weeks time. I've never seen anything like that before but when full-timing we avoided this kind of heat.Going forward I'm going to try and find the Interstate batteries made by Trojan and after replacing wonder how to proceed with charging? I'm thinking that I should just run the solar a few days a month and the rest of the time disconnect the batteries and turn off solar. Fortunately, the LD is stored about a mile away.Jim
Re: Battery/Solar Problem Reply #10 – September 08, 2019, 04:42:49 pm "I connected the Pro Fill and it took a lot of water."JimAt this point might you consider AGMs?
Re: Battery/Solar Problem Reply #11 – September 08, 2019, 05:19:47 pm Quote from: Lazy Bones - September 08, 2019, 04:42:49 pm"I connected the Pro Fill and it took a lot of water."JimAt this point might you consider AGMs?I understand but the cost and an uncertain future prevents that.Jim
Re: Battery/Solar Problem Reply #12 – September 08, 2019, 06:12:57 pm "...but the cost ..."Roughly $300 each, total investment around $600 and you can sell the Pro-fill to ameliorate some of the cost.
Re: Battery/Solar Problem Reply #13 – September 09, 2019, 03:08:55 am Jim,We sit in that heat and 3 weeks seem quick for the water to go that low. Yes batteries don’t do as well in our AZ heat and can cut the normal lifespan in half easily. We have seen this on our cars.We needed coach batteries when we got the LD. I figured being new to RVs and learning we were going to be harder on batteries so we put in Costco 6v which are made by Trojan (for interstate who Costco gets them from).After about 2 years they charge up well (13.23 currently - on shorepower so no load and smart charger is not charging them right now). But they drop down much lower with even a small load on them and drop low enough to need a recharge after about 2 days usage rather than the 4 days between charges we got initially. (We don’t have solar at the moment.)I take that as a sign the batteries are not as good.Fuses - the only thing that should make that fuse blow is too much electricity being pulled thru it, I would check electrical connections everywhere to make sure they are not loose. From what I have read panels typically have box where they are tied together electrically and one of these for multiple panels is common. I am guessing your two 100w are wired together and the 160watt is straight to the controller.I would defiantly figure out the fuse issue before putting in new batteries.FYI. When I first read about smart chargers there is a difference between ones that can be set to match the charging specs of your specific battery. I think I read blue sky solar does that but check your manual.We upgraded from the original power center, that was starting to show trouble and I don’t believe it was a smart charger (limited documentation and company no longer around). We choose a Progressive smart charger (highly recommended by this group), While that one is tons better than the original one put in by LD or the one we had, it is not adjustable for manufacturing charging specs.A smart charger that can be set to your battery charging specs helps extend that battery life the longest but is pretty pricy.A smart battery charger with generic voltages for each stage of your battery type (lead acid, AGM, lithium) does next best.A non-smart battery charger is hardest on your batteries but likely Costs the least.When I noticed our batteries were not holding the charges well, I asked Andy and he confirmed that there were brands (Victron is one) that are adjustable to your battery specs and having this does allow much better performance of your battery eg what full timer Boondockers typically want).Jane
Re: Battery/Solar Problem Reply #14 – September 09, 2019, 03:40:04 am Hi Jim. 360 watts is a lot for just the standard Trojan sized batteries. Unless you have shorted wiring somewhere for the Grape Solar panel, it shouldn't be blowing the fuse. You didn't say what size that fuse was.? The heat could have affected the bateries, and they can outgas a lot of water, although being disconnected they should have been ok. What is hot to you isn't that hot to batteries. 150 degrees is fine. Car batteries are exposed to more heat than that sitting next to the engines. Like Jane said, the heat may age the batteries much faster. I would put in new Costco Interstate at about $100 each. They won't last as long as the Trojan, but per watt year, may be about the same. Do you have the Bluesky i3000 controller? 360 watts could get up near the 30 amp limit. (more like 27-28 amps I would think) . RonB
Re: Battery/Solar Problem Reply #15 – September 09, 2019, 11:43:25 am Jane and Ron thanks for the replies.The fuse is 15 amp. The panels are connected in what I think is called a serial connection. The second 100-watt panel is connected to the junction box in the first panel and I connected the 160-watt panel to the junction box of the second 100-watt panel.Before I put the 160-watt panel on I discussed it with AM Solar and they felt that was acceptable. At the time it is a panel they were carrying. It replaced a damaged 100 watt AM Solar panel that was getting worse in terms of output.Moreover, when AM Solar replaced the HPV 22B with the Blue Sky 3000i last summer they felt there was no problem with the setup. If they had I would have had them change it.Jane, I may not be understanding what you are referring to with chargers. The Blue Sky is a smart charger and I replaced the original converter with a Progressive 4645 several years ago.I should have and will check the wiring connections at the panel junction boxes next time I'm looking up there.Regarding the Costco Interstate batteries, I believe the ones they carry are the 58-pound version with lower amp-hour ratings. They make a 62-pound version that more closely matches the Trojan T105 which I'm going to check out as well.Jim
Re: Battery/Solar Problem Reply #16 – September 09, 2019, 12:05:48 pm If connected in series, you would have a 50 - 60V output to the controller, so I doubt that. Connected in parallel, the Voltage is at 17 - 20V, but the current output is additive, so if you have a dead battery cell - which excessive water consumption would indicate - the 15A fuse is probably less than the current output of the three panels. When the enginie is running, the alternator is raising the battery voltage enough the solar output drop. Turn off the engine, the panel output increases due too the reduced battery voltage, and the fuse blows.Steve
Re: Battery/Solar Problem Reply #17 – September 09, 2019, 12:56:02 pm Hi Jim. As Steve stated your panels are in parallel wired configuration. The 15 Amp fuse is specifically for just that panel. A 160 watt panel might get close to the 15 Amp fuse rating. If the fuse on the roof is really hot (might be from the heat) it could blow at a lesser amperage. I would put in a 20 Amp fuse myself to save trips to the roof. These fuses are to prevent fire from downstream wiring issues anyway. The Bluesky controller should keep your batteries from being 'cooked', but you could run out of water quickly. Water usage goes up with battery age in my experience. The 62 pound batteries at Costco are the ones I use. Many motorhomes are 'coming from the factory' with smaller sized batteries. A friend just bought a used 2017 (some other brand) with two size 24 batteries in parallel. Considering what he paid, and the size of it, 32 feet, 18,000 #GVWR, that just wasn't right! I guess the manufacturers figure you only need the batteries between full hookup sites. RonB
Re: Battery/Solar Problem Reply #18 – September 09, 2019, 10:46:42 pm Jim, the term "smart" is thrown around pretty casually these days. Generally, it means any charger with more than two stages (bulk + absorb + float). It does not mean that the voltages it puts out in those charging stages are the best ones for a given battery. That varies with battery type (flooded cell/AGM/LiFePO4)... and even within a given type, by manufacturer.Jane's point is that just because a charger is described as "smart" doesn't mean it'll do the best job with your particular batteries. A charger that has settings for various types of batteries is better, but a one-size-fits-all "AGM" or "lithium" setting can still be less than ideal for a given set of batteries. A charger that lets you set the individual voltages and timing for each stage (e.g., Victron's) is best. Of course you have to know what those settings should be, but most battery manufacturers such as Lifeline and Victron offer that information in their data sheets.The Blue Sky 3000i isn't a bad charger, and its size makes it a good replacement for the older RV-30 and HPV-22 models. Lacking programmability (see correction below), it's not the best charger... but considering the trade-offs, it's decent compromise.In any case, I doubt your charger killed your batteries. Most likely, as others have said, it's a shorted cell.
Re: Battery/Solar Problem Reply #19 – September 10, 2019, 09:13:40 am Quote from: Andy Baird - September 09, 2019, 10:46:42 pm<snap for reference>The Blue Sky 3000i isn't a bad charger, and its size makes it a good replacement for the older RV-30 and HPV-22 models. Lacking programmability, it's not the best charger... but considering the trade-offs, it's decent compromise.......Not in total disagreement with Andy but the Blue Sky 3000i is programmable on all three stages. Yes it is not the easiest to program but it can be done. There is a saying that an expert is a person that has made all the mistakes ---- I'm not an expert yet but my wallet and brain has been sorely abused.See page 7 and 8 on below Blue Sky Manualhttp://sunforgellc.com/wp-content/themes/sunforge/manuals/SB3000i_Manual.pdf
Re: Battery/Solar Problem Reply #20 – September 10, 2019, 11:41:41 am Thanks for the correction! The pages you pointed to show that I was wrong--the Blue Sky 3000i can be programmed. Given that you have only a 3-digit LED display and two pushbuttons to work with, it isn't going to be fun or easy. But to be fair, once you've done the setup for a new set of batteries, it's probably not a task you'll need to do more than every couple of years.I have to say that Victron's way (see attached photo), which lets you change any setting from a phone, tablet, or computer, is a lot less intimidating than Blue Sky's way, which starts off like this and goes on from there...Changing a settingTo enter the Changing Mode, first enter the Viewing Mode for the setting to be changed. While in Viewing Mode for that setting, press Setup 5 seconds to enter the Changing Mode for that setting. The present setting value will begin blinking rapidly indicating that you have entered the parameter changing mode for that setting. Use Display Select to scroll through the available values until the desired value is reached. With the desired new value blinking in the display press Setup 5 seconds to save the new setting. Once the new setting is saved the display will revert back to the Viewing Mode showing the new saved value for that setting. If neither Setup or Display Select is pressed within 5 seconds while in the Changing Mode, the change request is abandoned and the display reverts back to Viewing Mode without changing the setting.
Re: Battery/Solar Problem Reply #21 – October 05, 2019, 04:47:44 pm This will update the post and report what I believe is the resolution to the issue.I finally got around to replacing the batteries with two Trojan T105s. Prior to that and based on a comment here and a conversation with an engineer friend I increased the fuse size to 25amp which should be overkill. He theorized that since heat increases the resistance in the wiring that caused the 15amp fuse to blow. I have seen input amp readings in excess of 15 but I can't recall the max I've seen with the new controller.Anyway, after several days the fuse and batteries are fine with no measurable water loss in the batteries.Jim
Re: Battery/Solar Problem Reply #22 – October 05, 2019, 06:14:06 pm "He theorized that since heat increases the resistance in the wiring, that [was what] caused the 15amp fuse to blow."Ordinarily, when an engineer designs a particular circuit or device he will calculate and set the size of the fuse needed to protect the item.Given, as in your case, that the circuit has the capability of producing more current than the original it may be prudent to insert a higher rated fuse, but only within reason.
Re: Battery/Solar Problem Reply #23 – October 05, 2019, 08:21:30 pm Quote from: Lazy Bones - October 05, 2019, 06:14:06 pm"He theorized that since heat increases the resistance in the wiring, that [was what] caused the 15amp fuse to blow."Ordinarily, when an engineer designs a particular circuit or device he will calculate and set the size of the fuse needed to protect the item.Given, as in your case, that the circuit has the capability of producing more current than the original it may be prudent to insert a higher rated fuse, but only within reason. Since the folks at AM Solar told me they couldn't figure out why Lazy Daze installed a fuse in the first place I assumed the size, in this case, didn't matter. I don't expect to ever see more than 20 amps from the solar panels so I went with the 25 amp fuse.I certainly don't claim to know the answers to these issues.Jim 1 Likes
Re: Battery/Solar Problem Reply #24 – October 06, 2019, 09:01:19 am As I understand it the 'standard' formula for fuse size is 125% above max predicted amp use. Some folks use 130% but resistance becomes a problem. glen
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