Re: Water leak Reply #50 – September 14, 2019, 10:50:53 pm tedeboy, do you know how far the crack extends from the opening?
Re: Water leak Reply #51 – September 15, 2019, 09:46:46 am Like Larry, I have had good results with JB Weld. It will be a bit thicker when mixed than the Devcon 2 Ton epoxy. That will be good for putting it on your finger, then spreading it above the hole, but not as good for penetrating the crack. I would expect it to do at least as well as the Devcon for holding the crack together, if you can get it in there. As you will be cleaning/reforming the threads with a tap, don't forget Larry's suggestion to use a saw to open up the crack. That would make getting the JB Weld in there much easier. To saw into the crack, a hacksaw blade should do well, using it on the pull stroke.Ken F in WY 1 Likes
Re: Water leak Reply #52 – September 15, 2019, 10:11:52 am Quote from: Kenneth Fears - September 15, 2019, 09:46:46 amLike Larry, I have had good results with JB Weld. It will be a bit thicker when mixed than the Devcon 2 Ton epoxy. That will be good for putting it on your finger, then spreading it above the hole, but not as good for penetrating the crack. I would expect it to do at least as well as the Devcon for holding the crack together, if you can get it in there. As you will be cleaning/reforming the threads with a tap, don't forget Larry's suggestion to use a saw to open up the crack. That would make getting the JB Weld in there much easier. To saw into the crack, a hacksaw blade should do well, using it on the pull stroke.Ken F in WYI'll try and get in there Ken but it's difficult to reach and I only know there's a crack when I stick my finger in the drain and flex it slightly I can see the movement. Impossible to see which direction the crack goes. I've got the motorhome side skirt, wheel well, and grey tank hindering me. It is one of those jobs where the work space is about 8" narrow and 12" deep. My hands fill this space quickly.It's difficult to see the drain fitting in detail.
Re: Water leak Reply #53 – September 15, 2019, 01:04:09 pm Quote from: HiLola - September 14, 2019, 10:50:53 pmtedeboy, do you know how far the crack extends from the opening?That's a great question.I'm going to see of removing the front wheel well cover plate gives me a better look.
Re: Water leak Reply #54 – September 15, 2019, 02:39:51 pm Got the front wheel well off. They sure use lots of adhesive. I'm tempted to remove the side skirt also for additional work room.
Re: Water leak Reply #55 – September 15, 2019, 02:40:14 pm Tedeboy, cleaning the threads - better than a dental pick or mechanic's pick is the pipe thread tap. It will fit in there and scrape the threads perfectly clean.I get that you can't easily work your way in there. So, scrape the threads clean with the tap, something you can do by feel. Then, take a piece of 100 grit sandpaper, cut a strip 3/8" wide, insert it part way into the hole, then put your finger in, bend the sandpaper over, and use it to scrub the inner surface clean. Wet a small piece of rag with acetone and wipe that surface clean. If you can fit both hands in there, use one hand to pull the crack open from above and use the other with a toothbrush and acetone to scrub the crack. If only one hand will fit, just scrub with the toothbrush. When it is dry, you are ready for the JB Weld or epoxy. With a gloved finger, spread some (a lot, because you do not know the direction or extent of the crack) JB Weld on the inner surface. Then, if you can get both hands in there, pull on top to open the crack and work more JB Weld into the crack from below. If only one hand will fit, just spread the JB Weld onto the threads in the hole and run your throw-away pipe in. With it part way in, wiggle it a bit to open the crack. Run it the rest of the way in and wiggle. Remove it, add more JB Weld to the threads and repeat a few times. Remove the pipe and wipe excess JB Weld with a dry cloth, then let it all cure until it is pretty stiff. Run the tap in until you feel the resistance change enough to tell you you have cleaned the threads and are starting to cut, then back the tap out. You can clean the tap with the acetone and a stiff brush. Let everything sit at least 24 hours, then re-assemble and check for leaks.Good luck!Ken F in WY
Re: Water leak Reply #56 – September 15, 2019, 03:08:40 pm Quote from: Kenneth Fears - September 15, 2019, 02:40:14 pmTedeboy, cleaning the threads - better than a dental pick or mechanic's pick is the pipe thread tap. It will fit in there and scrape the threads perfectly clean.I get that you can't easily work your way in there. So, scrape the threads clean with the tap, something you can do by feel. Then, take a piece of 100 grit sandpaper, cut a strip 3/8" wide, insert it part way into the hole, then put your finger in, bend the sandpaper over, and use it to scrub the inner surface clean. Wet a small piece of rag with acetone and wipe that surface clean. If you can fit both hands in there, use one hand to pull the crack open from above and use the other with a toothbrush and acetone to scrub the crack. If only one hand will fit, just scrub with the toothbrush. When it is dry, you are ready for the JB Weld or epoxy. With a gloved finger, spread some (a lot, because you do not know the direction or extent of the crack) JB Weld on the inner surface. Then, if you can get both hands in there, pull on top to open the crack and work more JB Weld into the crack from below. If only one hand will fit, just spread the JB Weld onto the threads in the hole and run your throw-away pipe in. With it part way in, wiggle it a bit to open the crack. Run it the rest of the way in and wiggle. Remove it, add more JB Weld to the threads and repeat a few times. Remove the pipe and wipe excess JB Weld with a dry cloth, then let it all cure until it is pretty stiff. Run the tap in until you feel the resistance change enough to tell you you have cleaned the threads and are starting to cut, then back the tap out. You can clean the tap with the acetone and a stiff brush. Let everything sit at least 24 hours, then re-assemble and check for leaks.Good luck!Ken F in WYI just too this pic.My best view yet of the crack.It appears to not go into the body of the tank which I assume is a good thing!
Re: Water leak Reply #57 – September 15, 2019, 03:16:04 pm It does, however, look like the crack extends through the entire fitting. I was hoping you would be able to drill a larger hole and rethread, using a larger plug, but don’t think that’s possible in this case. Larry and Ken’s solutions are your best bet, I think.
Re: Water leak Reply #58 – September 15, 2019, 03:24:59 pm Quote from: Kenneth Fears - September 15, 2019, 02:40:14 pmTedeboy, cleaning the threads - better than a dental pick or mechanic's pick is the pipe thread tap. It will fit in there and scrape the threads perfectly clean.I get that you can't easily work your way in there. So, scrape the threads clean with the tap, something you can do by feel. ..., Good luck!Ken F in WYI'm wondering if the tap will spread the crack open thus giving me the opportunity to clean it from the outside if I can with a toothbrush?
Re: Water leak Reply #59 – September 15, 2019, 04:40:20 pm Thinking in terms of prevention, I'm curious as to what may have caused the crack in the threaded area in the first place. Inherent material weakness? "Off-threading"? Overtightening a connection?
Re: Water leak Reply #60 – September 15, 2019, 05:00:23 pm Quote from: Joan - September 15, 2019, 04:40:20 pmThinking in terms of prevention, I'm curious as to what may have caused the crack in the threaded area in the first place. Inherent material weakness? "Off-threading"? Overtightening a connection? It started leaking just sitting which is odd.The drain valve assembly is heavy brass attached to the PVC pipe coming from the tank. There is a strap around the pipe to limit side to side movement but it isn't very efficient and doesn't relieve the downward pull of the weight.I'm fairly confident that this weight, after 24 years, contributed to this. I may have exacerbated the issue with tightening but I didn't wrench on it.Regardless, it is what it is and when I reinstall I'm going to just go with a PVC drain pipe with a hose thread fitting and a cap. I don't want hardly any weight this time.
Re: Water leak Reply #61 – September 15, 2019, 05:27:53 pm Quote from: tedeboy - September 15, 2019, 03:08:40 pmI just too this pic.My best view yet of the crack.It appears to not go into the body of the tank which I assume is a good thing!I would still want to open the crack up for cleaning and application of epoxy, the crack needs to be completely clean, if possible.A short piece of a hack saw blade or a dental pick would still be my choice for removing the crack's dirty plastic.Ken's description is the same method I would use.The crack in Ted's tank could have been caused by a too long or unsupported drain pipe, the flexing could have caused the crack to appear and grow. A protruding drain pipe could have been hit hard enough to crack the fitting.Larry 1 Likes
Re: Water leak Reply #62 – September 15, 2019, 05:40:37 pm Quote from: Larry W - September 15, 2019, 05:27:53 pmI would still want to open the crack up for cleaning and application of epoxy, the crack needs to be completely clean, if possible.A short piece of a hack saw blade or a dental pick would still be my choice for removing the crack's dirty plastic.Ken's description is the same method I would use.The crack in Ted's tank could have been caused by a too long or unsupported drain pipe, the flexing could have caused the crack to appear and grow. A protruding drain pipe could have been hit hard enough to crack the fitting.LarryLarry, since getting a blade in there and sawing movement is next to impossible how about I heat up a thin metal of some type like say a razor blade and slice down the crack?
Re: Water leak Reply #63 – September 15, 2019, 07:50:56 pm Rather than struggle with this crack and retapping the threads what about gluing in this reducer and going with a 1/2" drain?Provided there was a bit of clearance so the crack doesn't get pushed apart and for plenty of epoxy glue. On edit...The outside diameter of this reducer is too large.
Re: Water leak Reply #64 – September 15, 2019, 08:12:14 pm It sounds like you are still looking for ideas.You might find some here (on a boat forum): Leaking fitting on polyethylene holding tank - Cruisers & Sailing ForumsRich'03 MB in NC 1 Likes
Re: Water leak Reply #65 – September 15, 2019, 09:14:15 pm Good pic! That helps.It looks like the crack extends along the length of the threaded protrusion, but not to the mating of the tank with the fitting. If so, I would not change any of the plans discussed. I would hesitate to cut open the crack, fearing that I would spread the crack to the tank itself. If the crack already reaches the tank, nothing to lose in opening the crack. You might try fitting a small flat bladed screwdriver into the bottom of the crack to spread it, then scrape it clean. That would also facilitate working JB Weld into the crack. Looking at the pic, I think I would add one thing, if possible. After finishing with the JB Weld, before cleaning the threads with the tap, if there is room, I would try to get a band clamp onto the fixture to hold the crack together, supplementing the strength of the JB Weld work. I think it will be hard to tighten it ( a whole lot of little turns with a small box wrench), but I think it will add a lot to the strength of the repair. With the band clamp in place and snugged up, use the tap to clean the threads, then do the assembly.Ken F in WY
Re: Water leak Reply #66 – September 15, 2019, 09:32:42 pm Quote from: Kenneth Fears - September 15, 2019, 09:14:15 pmGood pic! That helps.It looks like the crack extends along the length of the threaded protrusion, but not to the mating of the tank with the fitting. If so, I would not change any of the plans discussed. I would hesitate to cut open the crack, fearing that I would spread the crack to the tank itself. If the crack already reaches the tank, nothing to lose in opening the crack. You might try fitting a small flat bladed screwdriver into the bottom of the crack to spread it, then scrape it clean. That would also facilitate working JB Weld into the crack. Looking at the pic, I think I would add one thing, if possible. After finishing with the JB Weld, before cleaning the threads with the tap, if there is room, I would try to get a band clamp onto the fixture to hold the crack together, supplementing the strength of the JB Weld work. I think it will be hard to tighten it ( a whole lot of little turns with a small box wrench), but I think it will add a lot to the strength of the repair. With the band clamp in place and snugged up, use the tap to clean the threads, then do the assembly.Ken F in WYThank you Ken.A few pictures back I was able to get a band (hose) clamp around the fitting. It's the picture with the boat t handle drain plug I experimented with. 1 Likes
Re: Water leak Reply #67 – September 15, 2019, 09:41:06 pm Just remember, pipe taps and threads are tapered. Too much enthusiasm with your tap or the new fitting would most likely crack something else not too tight, lots of teflon and thread compound help. The hose clamp would be a very good idea if you can do it. 1 Likes
Re: Water leak Reply #68 – September 15, 2019, 09:56:21 pm Quote from: JonS - September 15, 2019, 09:41:06 pmJust remember, pipe taps and threads are tapered. Too much enthusiasm with your tap or the new fitting would most likely crack something else not too tight, lots of teflon and thread compound help. The hose clamp would be a very good idea if you can do it.Good advice. Thanks
Re: Water leak Reply #69 – September 15, 2019, 10:01:31 pm Quote from: HiLola - September 14, 2019, 10:50:53 pmtedeboy, do you know how far the crack extends from the opening?Here's a good pic I took today. 1 Likes
Re: Water leak Reply #71 – September 16, 2019, 02:26:16 am Hi Ted. The picture of the reducer that was too big, was for a 'slip' fitting that is meant to glue into a schedule 40 glued pipe to 'give' it threads. Instead you could use this 3/4" x 1/2" Sch 40 PVC Reducer (T.T.) Bushing Mipt x Fipt 439-101 a threaded insert to reduce the hole to 1/2". As Jon stated pipe threads are tapered, Because of this as you screw in a fitting it gets tighter. That's how you would stop a leak by tightening a fitting. If it were straight, like a bolt, it would just continue leaking. When you tighten a fitting you are forcibly expanding the fitting that is welded onto the fresh water tank. Putting the plastic surround in tension. As plastic ages, the compounds that give it flexibility evaporate, so eventially the fitting will crack, as yours did. The motion and flexing of the drain pipe, with the weight of the metal valve didn't help. Lighter weight, and a plastic valve would be a better long term solution. Some other more stable material might be better. (Too late for that) A spring type clamp would apply better pressure on the outside of the problem fitting. A better design would leave a male end of a fitting welded into a tank, sticking out, so that a female threaded part could be screwed onto it. If it cracked at some future date it could be replaced easily. The 'male' stub sticking out of the tank would be in compression, instead of tension. That won't help us now of course. My tank doesn't leak yet, but mine is just a bit newer than yours. So thanks for the preview, I hope your fix works! RonB
Re: Water leak Reply #72 – September 16, 2019, 09:09:53 am Quote from: tedeboy - September 15, 2019, 10:01:31 pmHere's a good pic I took today.Perhaps something like this:https://www.homedepot.com/p/ProFlex-Proflex-2-in-x-1-1-4-in-Neoprene-Shielded-Coupling-P3001-2125/205107046?MERCH=REC-_-SearchPLPHorizontal1_rr-_-NA-_-205107046-_-Nif you can find one sized to fit over the fitting at one end, and over the pipe at the other. I have used these several times to mate uncooperative and dissimilar material pipes of different sizes. The rubber coupling inside is sized differently at each end.Steve
Re: Water leak Reply #73 – September 16, 2019, 10:15:44 am I'm learning that polyethylene is problematic.It's difficult to glue.Here may be a couple of choices.Loctite 3035Permabond TA4610
Re: Water leak Reply #74 – September 16, 2019, 10:20:57 am Quote from: Steve - September 16, 2019, 09:09:53 amPerhaps something like this:https://www.homedepot.com/p/ProFlex-Proflex-2-in-x-1-1-4-in-Neoprene-Shielded-Coupling-P3001-2125/205107046?MERCH=REC-_-SearchPLPHorizontal1_rr-_-NA-_-205107046-_-Nif you can find one sized to fit over the fitting at one end, and over the pipe at the other. I have used these several times to mate uncooperative and dissimilar material pipes of different sizes. The rubber coupling inside is sized differently at each end.SteveI like your idea however the contact surface isn't smooth. This also is an issue when I use a hose clamp and try to apply even pressure.