Total Loss of 12 Volt Power May 18, 2019, 02:03:48 am Need some help/advice:We lost power at our home and since I keep my RV at home, I simply moved to my RV. As it grew dark, I thought I’d run my generator for a bit, then I turned on my AC. Everything seemed fine until I turned off my AC, followed by shutting down my generator. EVERTHING went dark! My control panel was dead, all 12 lights turned off and nothing would turn back on. The only way to turn 12 volt coach power back on was to first start the engine, followed by the generator. Once the microwave kicked on, the lights worked along with the control panel. Turning off the generator killed everything again.I put a voltage meter on the coach batteries without the generator running nor the engine running and read 12.6 volts. With the engine running, 13.4 volts and with the generator running, 14.2 volts. I opened up the fuse panel and nothing seemed tripped. Nonetheless, I turned off the breakers and turned them back on. Still I have no 12 volt coach power, unless I run the generator. Any electricians or mechanics out there? Larry? Steve? Others.Thank you, Gary
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #1 – May 18, 2019, 02:23:25 am Could be your master 12 V breaker tripped. This is a small, cheap automotive breaker--a little silver box the size of half an ice cube, with two terminals and a tiny black reset pushbutton. Lazy Daze hides it in various locations--for example, in a midbath, you have to remove the drawer under the fridge and reach inside to the left to reset it. I don't know where it is on a 30' twin bed, but somebody here can probably tell you. When the battery tests good yet all 12 V coach power is off, that breaker is the first thing I'd look at.Another thought: you said "I opened up the fuse panel and nothing seemed tripped." I'd pull every fuse, starting with the 30A ones, and test it for continuity. Sometimes fuses can look good but not conduct. 1 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #2 – May 18, 2019, 02:30:25 am Ok, I am going to ask some obvious questions, but you never know.Your lights and other 12V items worked before you started your generator? Or did you not try to use them until it got dark and you turned on the generator? (e.g. could someone have been chewing on the cables or something came loose since last time you used the RV).If the lights and 12v appliances were not used before you turned on the generator, maybe something was already not working:-- Was your battery connected to it's cable and no disconnect switch is on? (E.g. you didn't disconnect the battery after the last RV use so the battery would not drain while parked.) -- Did you check that wires from your battery to your electric panel are all ok includling all spots inbetween (separate ATS if you have one, shanks for battery monitor, etc.)JaneP.S. Andy, how cruel to have a 12v master breaker and not even have it in the power center / battery area where it is easy to find/know about
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #3 – May 18, 2019, 02:36:25 am Okay in a 30’ IB it is also under the fridge. In general it’s likely close to the battery compartment but inside the vehicle/cabinetry. We have two drawers under fridge. That breaker is under the bottom drawer. On the floor of the coach. From there cable runs under floor to inverter. Good luck Lydia
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #4 – May 18, 2019, 02:49:51 am Thank you Lydia, Jane and of course Andy! The neighborhood power came back on so I moved back into the house. I will look for that switch tomorrow when the sun comes up. Is this the same switch that the owner's manual refers to on page 36 of the owner's manual regarding the electrical system? It reads 4) The house batteries circuit breaker is tripped (stays open). This specially constructed sealed circuit breaker is located inside the house batteries compartment on the rear wall and must be manually reset.Lydia's RV is a 2006IB and mine is a 2007TB, likely the same location, under the refrigerator behind the lower drawers. The switch that you are talking about may be different from the one I am quoting from the manual? Or are they one in the same?Gary
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #5 – May 18, 2019, 02:55:50 am Answer to Jane's question:I didn't turn on any lights but the control panel was lit up and one ceiling fan was operable. Also the display for the solar panel showed battery voltage levels. I am definitely leaning towards the 12 volt master switch; just have to find it. You would think it would be accessible. Although, I have had my 07' since 2011 and it has never tripped previously.Gary
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #6 – May 18, 2019, 03:21:40 am Jake, that sounds like the one. I know that progressive told me to install a breaker between the batteries and power center so that their power center didn't get damaged if an installer put in new batteries with the cables incorrectly wired. Yup I have read stories here, it has happened by "pros" at the battery store.I wonder if this master breaker does the same sort of thing.Jane
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #7 – May 18, 2019, 10:42:17 am Update,I pulled the battery tray out to reveal the switch at the back wall of the battery box. I pushed at the middle of this switch thinking I would feel a click or hear something reset but I could find nothing to reset it. Does this reset somehow? There is a small red wire that is marked "electric step". That fuse is intact and the step is functioning. I pulled the bottom drawer completely out from under the refrigerator and see one large and one small box on top of each other that is obviously factory installed. They both have electrical wires emanating from it. One of the wires is fused with a 15 amp fuse which is operable. I believe it runs to the solar or factory satelite system. I cannot find a switch to reset here either. There must be a way to reset something?Also, I rechecked the converter box with an voltmeter and there is no power anywhere to the box at the wires. I then plugged the RV in to my 30 amp source at home and, of course, I have power restored everywhere. There is a blinking green light at this panel. I will leave it plugged in as I have to leave for a convention.Any further ideas before I leave in twenty minutes? If not, I will monitor the plethora of suggestions/ideas on my phone.Best,Gary
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #8 – May 18, 2019, 11:54:02 am I think I have a short somewhere or a bad converter. Tried everything that I could; 12 volt breaker in battery box was not tripped Gary
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #9 – May 18, 2019, 12:37:26 pm Could it be the transfer switch is stuck Jody 1 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #10 – May 18, 2019, 01:40:52 pm "Could it be the transfer switch..."I agree, it fits the symptoms quiet well. If the transfer switch failed to return to the AC side and is stuck on the Gennie side I'd expect you would see the same result. 1 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #11 – May 18, 2019, 02:58:16 pm "If the transfer switch failed to return to the AC side and is stuck on the Gennie side I'd expect you would see the same result."If I understand Gary's decription of the problem correctly, he has no 12 V power when there is no 120 V power (shore power out, generator off). But there should be 12 V power from the batteries (which he's checked) regardless of whether AC is present. That means the state of the converter and the associated transfer switch are irrelevant.Am I missing something here?
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #12 – May 18, 2019, 03:46:35 pm I had the 12V master breaker fail and the symptoms were as the OP.I have a 23.5 FL and the breaker was in the compartment with the fuse panel and related converter.I couldn't find it, so had to go to an RV shop and had them trace it down. Breaker was bout $10
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #13 – May 18, 2019, 04:17:52 pm Update:I got fixated on this and delayed leaving for my convention. I reached out to a closed car repair shop that also works on RVs. One worker was there for people picking up their RVs. He offered to look at it if I drove it by. He looked at the switch at the back of the battery box and said it hadn’t tripped. He then verified no power to the fuse box. He verified the coach batteries as being good and then started the generator from the outside compartment. Then he went to the fuse box and jiggled a few fuses and then turned off the generator and I still had 12 volt power. It all worked! Or so it seemed; I lightened my wallet of some cash for his time and started to drive home. I only got about a mile and I heard a slight click (not sure where); guessing that I lost power and once home, I’m back to square 1. Joty suggests a Master 12 volt breaker failure? I assume that is not the one in the battery box but is located somewhere behind the fuse box from her description?I called back the “now cash rich” shop attendant and he suggested I bring it in during the week for the electrical tech to check out.He suspects a short somewhere in the 12 volt system but it’s above his pay grade.Any more thoughts after reading this?Best,Gary
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #14 – May 18, 2019, 06:10:43 pm Juggling electric components that results in them working - a general red flag for me...Nothing should be jiggle-able with electric (except a little extra length in wires themselves). I had heard for years 12v could not cause a fire until I read of an RV fire caused by 12v wiring. And the escapees bootcamp did list 12v as one of their top causes (maybe position 5).I would go back and look at those fuses in the fuse box to be sure they are tight - there should be no wobble of the fuse in the spot nor of the spots in their box.However I don't know that this would knock out all your 12v.JaneSent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #15 – May 18, 2019, 06:20:40 pm I should say that I personally think the 12v wiring fires might be caused by the very thick 11v wire - not the thinner one found in most areas of the LD.DH said check your connections on that fuse box.JaneSent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #16 – May 18, 2019, 08:30:23 pm Thanks everyone for taxing their minds and giving suggestions!I will personally check each and every fuse that is in the fuse box, although my gut tells me different. My experience tells me that a fuse will only affect the circuit that it is fused to protect. Losing that continuity will only affect those devices that are powered by the blown fuse. In my mind, losing all 12 volt power sounds more like that could be caused by a master 12 volt breaker or switch. My 2007 didn't come from the factory with the 12 volt shutoff, so I can't look there. Now the breaker in the battery box maybe the culprit? I don't know if they ever go bad. I am not sure how to appropriately test that little switch on the back wall. I also still want to hear more of the 12 volt breaker that is located behind the fuse panel that Joty mentioned in an earlier post. I have not heard any more mention of that possibility.I wonder if Larry or Steve have anything to add here? They both are top notch diagnosticians.Best,Gary
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #17 – May 18, 2019, 08:51:54 pm Gary - you bought your LD new?No previous owners that might have done something g custom?What power center brand & model do you have?If I remember right the progressive we put in (entire power center) had some pretty complete diagrams. I will look to pull that up shortly when I get back in front of a computer. It might give some clues - at least where else to test for 12v, and might help even if you have adifferent model.JaneSent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #18 – May 18, 2019, 09:02:45 pm This thread, full of suggestions, diagnostic tips and advice is what this group does best. These are the kind of threads I bookmark. Thanks for everyone's participation.Chris 1 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #19 – May 18, 2019, 09:27:28 pm Gary, Ok, here is a picture of the Progressive PD4000 Series Power Control Center that I installed (has the AC breakers, DC fuses, and a converter - all in one box, no ATS in the box).See the attached picture. On the right is the AC power (coming in - mine has an separate ATS where the generator and shore power come into that ATS, then comes out of the ATS and goes into the power center).On the left is where the battery is connected - see the red lines. These cables/wires connecting the battery to the power center should be significantly larger than the other wires you will see in that power center.Find that equivalent spot (battery positive) on your power center and see of you are getting 12V into your power center (If you give me a brand/model number I will work to dig up a manual and diagram) .If you get power at that connection spot in your power center, the problem likely is between that spot and your fuses (check your panel out well for connections). From our fuses wires get scattered in all directions to various fixtures. If you do not get power into that connection spot, you need to trace backwards towards the battery. Look for any inline fuses / breakers. I am guessing your master 12v breaker/fuse is between the power center and the battery.Note, our power center also has fuse to prevent damage if someone connects the battery cables in the wrong locations (swaps them). Once that fuse is overloaded it needs to be replaced. I included a picture of that location also.Pictures (as well as brand and model) of your power center would be helpful. If needed I can grab some pictures of ours (sometimes diagrams don't look exactly like the real thing).Jane
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #20 – May 19, 2019, 12:16:09 am Dear Jane and Scott,Thank you very much for your assistance on this. When I return home tomorrow, I will take a deeper look into the converter located behind the fuse control panel if there is enough daylight left. I am going to look specifically for loose wires and connections that may have vibrated loose. Another thought is to look for rat or rodent chew marks since our home used to be home to indigenous rats who loved the orange groves. It is possible that rats may have chewed some wires but everything appears to be interior wired that power the converter, not accessible to the rats. It is true that our RVs travel over bumps and dips which simulate earthquakes here in California; perhaps it is a simple connection issue.The answer to another question: No, I am not the original owner. I purchased my second Lazy Daze (first being a 26.5 rear bath) from the original owners in 2011 so there are four years of unknown "alternations or modifications." I have done many things since 2011, but have not had any electrical issues until now. One of the first early things was to replace the factory "dumb" paralax converter to the 3 phase smart progressive converter. I recall it to be the 55 amp model. I didn't do the install myself having left that to a local independant RV shop that has since closed its doors. To date, all systems were performing without issues.If I am unable to locate the issue, I am going to let the shop test and figure it out. Nonetheless, once fixed I will query them for the details of the solution and the cause. Then I plan to post the results for all to see.Best,Gary
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #21 – May 19, 2019, 01:01:45 am Just a guess but I would look for a "cold solder joint" on the printed circuit board on the circuit path from the battery input through the 30 amp fuses. Jiggling the fuses individually may help you find where it is. I once had this happen on the furnace fuse. Took awhile to find it.It appears the discontinuity is within that PC board. The repair is to reheat the solder joint on the fuse mount tab. 1 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #22 – May 19, 2019, 03:31:30 am Hi Gary. I found this picture from Klaus, Reply #6 MagneTek 6345 Converter Replacement The picture of the 12 V dc fuse board should be close to what you have. The two 30Amp (yellow) fuses could be bad, blown or not plugged in correctly. I believe either one would prevent the batteries from providing power to the coach. The converter with either shore power, or generator 110V AC input would still feed 12V.DC to the coach, but wouldn't charge the batteries. The heavy red wire at top left-ish goes to the batteries plus output lead. (it kind of looks like it goes to the lower right of the board, but that is a smaller different wire). The two white wire at the upper right have a black wire just to the left of them marked Batt. Hard to discern in the picture but a heavy duty black wire going to the battery terminal marked (minus). That is also grounded, and so are the two white wires, grounded elsewhere. Make sure all of the connections are tight. Phillips screws across the bottom. Allen screws across the top. If you have a voltmeter, measure for 12V DC between the grounds (upper right) and the big red wire at top. If you don't have 12V, then the battery power isn't getting to the converter or coach. If you do have 12V I would carefully inspect those two yellow 30 A. fuses. I believe there is a black push button on that black circuit breaker in the battery box. I think that is rated at 50 A. to protect the wiring. From previous comments here there is another circuit breaker between the one at the battery box, and that red wire connected to the converter fuse board. I've just restated some of what Jane and Scott said. Picture from Klaus. thanks to both. I highly recommend the nearly free red Harbor Freight DVMeter. Simple but adequate for measuring 12 vdc. and 110 VAC., Some ohms and continuity. (they do have a 9v. battery inside that needs replacement once in a while) . RonB 1 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #23 – May 19, 2019, 12:58:28 pm Hi Ron,Nice hearing from you Ron. I am still away from my coach but I am going to dig into the fuse panel when I get home, hopefully before it gets dark. I had tested the DC voltage on board when I had no 12 volt power and reported that I got nothing. The only time I could get voltage to my circuit board was when I started the generator or connected to my home 30 amp circuit. The lone exception was the solar panel. This is why I suspected the breaker at the back of the battery box. I am not sure if the breaker has a short or ?Joty had mentioned another 12 volt breaker in the fuse box; I'm not clear about there being another one. I had also previously pulled out the drawers under the refrigerator and found no other breaker. Best,Gary
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #24 – May 19, 2019, 01:37:42 pm Gary.The breaker that was replaced in mine was not re settable.It was a small silver rectangular box with wires going to it.Only took the RV tech a few minutes to find, he knew what he was looking atand for. 1 Likes
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