AC popping (house) breaker February 07, 2019, 09:25:25 pm Hi all! I’m parked at an RV park (in Orlando, FL) for the first time (never stayed at a park before), and when I turn on my AC after a while it throws the house breaker. I’m hooked up to a 50 amp pole using 50 to 30 power adapter running through a Hughes 30 amp Autoformer. (My house power line is plugged into the Autoformer, and then the Autoformer is connected to the RV park power.). The 20 amp breaker in the Converter is what is being tripped. Btw, last year when I was plugged into a 20 amp line at home it worked great. Not sure where to even start troubleshooting for this. Thanks!
Re: AC popping (house) breaker Reply #1 – February 07, 2019, 09:59:19 pm Ok from what you have described it sounds odd but could be in the last park you had a different converter or different air conditioner or batteries were charged up so converter didn't use as many amps or some simple explaination why there was not a problem at that park and there is now.My first guess is you are overloading he 30 amps and the converter breaker is flipping in reaction rather than the main breaker (more on this below) - and it seems random as you changed nothing but an appliance all of a sudden asked for more electricity (surged) and that kicked you over the 30 amps. But it could be other things also.Figuring things out. The first thing I would do is confirm which breaker AC is on and which break your converter is on. We were told to have our new converter on its own breaker as they can draw a lot of electricity.If there's anything else you're using like a microwave a computer a TV or other electric appliance I would check what breaker they are on also.I would get an idea of everything I was using at the time it flips and see if the max amps used for each item all added uonwas over 39 amps.A lot of appliances including your air conditioner will surge (use a higher amount of electricity as it is ramping something up). We find we can have several things in, the a heavier Use appliance (air conditioner, electric space heater) and we throw a breaker. Often it is a minute or two into us having turned on too many things at once, so we have to think oh, we have these 3 things on - that is too much. So check if you are overloading everything - while that is supposed to through your main breaker (the 30 amp one) sometime for us it throws an outside (pole at the park) breaker or a breaker that is not the main one.Do you get info from your Autoformer that tells you history of any surges or spikes?Are your batteries fully charged or low? Or the real question which is:Do you have a good battery monitor that tells you how many amps are being used to charge the battery?How old is your charger/converter?Are all your breakers firmly set into your power center (none loose, wires all firmly attached, while you are checking check for black burned spots)?I remember something vaguely where something happening in a breaker could result in flipping the next one over but I can't remember what it was for the life of me.This gives you a starting place to figure things out. I am sure others will have some questions also.Keep us updated on what you find. JaneSent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone 1 Likes
Re: AC popping (house) breaker Reply #2 – February 07, 2019, 10:21:06 pm Jane, thanks. The converter/charger I’m referring to is the one that came installed in the LD (in a physical house I’d call it the Control Panel). As far as usage, I use very little power at any one time. I’m talking less than 6 or 7 amps on the 15 amp outlet circuit. The house lights are generally off, except at night, and they’re on their own circuit, too. The only thing on the roof AC circuit is the microwave, which I virtually never use. When I was living in here in the cold in IL I would throw the breaker when I overloaded the outlet breaker, but this is the first time I’ve experienced anything with the AC.Tomorrow I’ll open the converter panel (to the back side) to check for loose wires and ensure the breakers are seated correctly - from what I could tell from the front, they are. But I know from experience wires comes loose.Thanks.
Re: AC popping (house) breaker Reply #3 – February 08, 2019, 12:21:12 am You might call the manufacturer of the power center to pick their brains - I find if you can reach technical support they often have great info:Your power center & charger is only about 14 years old and I would think it should still be good. But Something with it might be making it pull too much current.Before we had a good battery monitor that told us how many amps were being put into the batteries we tested our general watt usage (device between LD and shore power). It showed crazy high numbers - our batteries were bad and way low. When we replaced the batteries we got more reasonable numbers (our very old charger was trying hard to charge those batteries).We had an almost 30 year old power center & charger and the breakers were loose (could wiggle them) and causing problems - black burned spots where they connected. We wanted to upgrade the charger so we did a brand new everything at that time.Some of the more experiencd members might have some ideas - I know house electricity better than RV.JaneSent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
Re: AC popping (house) breaker Reply #4 – February 08, 2019, 01:09:20 am Not enough information to make a diagnose or even a guess.. Exactly what circuit breaker is being tripped, the converter's breaker or the A/C's breaker?Breakers do wear and can get weak with age, popping at lower than the rated amperage.The A/C pulls up to 15 amps, a weak 20-amp breaker can trip after it warms up.Why are you using an autotransformer? Most parks do not allow their use since they pull down the voltage for other campers.Can't say I have ever felt a need for one, normally only being useful in parks, usually older, with inadequate power sources.I have no idea what other issues an autotransformer can cause, try plugging directly into the pedestal, without the autotransformer.Larry 2 Likes
Re: AC popping (house) breaker Reply #5 – February 08, 2019, 12:13:43 pm I'm with Larry: eliminate the Autoformer from the equation and see whether that helps. In general, these devices are neither necessary nor desirable. 2 Likes
Re: AC popping (house) breaker Reply #6 – February 08, 2019, 01:13:02 pm Those with electrical savvy may want to offer input on this explanation of how an autoformer works from the Hughes Autoformer website:How Does it Work? | Hughes Autoformers
Re: AC popping (house) breaker Reply #7 – February 08, 2019, 01:28:01 pm I chose the Autoformer to ensure that my electric would be at least somewhat consistent. I don’t plan on spending much time in RV parks, but wanted to protect the house electric from the power spikes, as well as low wattage, etc., that I’ve heard are rampant in RV parks.The breaker that flipped is only the AC breaker. I do plan on calling LD to see what they have to say also. Thanks!
Re: AC popping (house) breaker Reply #8 – February 08, 2019, 02:21:53 pm Here is my take on this, coming from the refrigeration field. If your breaker is tripping on the A/C only a couple things could be going on, 1 you have low voltage coming into your motor-home, eliminate your transformer and try again. 2 If the A/C cycles too rapidly it will not restart and will cycle on it's overload sometimes causing the breaker to trip. 3 You may have a loose wire on the breaker causing low voltage. 4 the, least desirable, you may have a bad compressor and this will usually trip the breaker instantly. I've replaced a bunch of compressors in these things. The fact they run and cool at all is a miracle. Any way, a few things to check.Jon..... 3 Likes
Re: AC popping (house) breaker Reply #9 – February 08, 2019, 04:05:51 pm You might want to look at EMS (Electrical Management Systems) products from Progressive Industries; there are hard-wired and portable units.Progressive Industries EMS-PT30XProgressive Industries EMS-LCHW30 (built-in display)Progressive Industries EMS-HW30C (remote display)
Re: AC popping (house) breaker Reply #10 – February 08, 2019, 07:34:14 pm I agree with Jon. One of the first things to check is the power coming into the coach. Do you have a plug-in power monitor? We use one consistently because the power in parks can be so variable. One thing we really watch in summer travel is the number of coaches hooked up (all of them) and how many are running a/c. As another coach hooks up you can watch the incoming power go down. Too far and we turn off the a/c, switch the fridge to gas, and/or unplug. Risking our coach is not worth it. Good luck on your troubleshooting.Juli W.Minden, NV'06 26.5 RB
Re: AC popping (house) breaker Reply #11 – February 08, 2019, 08:48:44 pm Quote from: phylana - February 08, 2019, 01:28:01 pmI chose the Autoformer to ensure that my electric would be at least somewhat consistent. I don’t plan on spending much time in RV parks, but wanted to protect the house electric from the power spikes, as well as low wattage, etc., that I’ve heard are rampant in RV parks.The breaker that flipped is only the AC breaker. I do plan on calling LD to see what they have to say also. Thanks!I doubt that LD will be a much help, they are not electricians or A/C mechanics.Take Joan's advice and install an EMS to protect your LD from power spikes, improperly wired pedestals and under/over voltage. This is the right way to protect your LD's 120-VAC electrical system. If you do buy an EMS, consider a hardwired EMS, once installed you do nothing for it to work, it's totally automatic.While autotransformers do boost low voltages for you, everyone else in the campground suffers from even lower voltage, due to your autotransformer. This is why many parks do not allow them.Larry
Re: AC popping (house) breaker Reply #12 – February 09, 2019, 12:53:11 am Juli - can you tell me more about your plug-in power monitor? I have not heard of that - we went with an EMS.JaneSent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
Re: AC popping (house) breaker Reply #13 – February 09, 2019, 08:11:06 pm Hi Jane,Right now I'm unable to get a photo but it is a plug-in, about 2" X 3" Automated Engineering of Tampa, FL model 20020. It is a digital monitor. Printed on the front: True RMS AC voltage. In our RB it is plugged on the driver's side between the couch and dinette. Easy to see. This provides a quick means to determine if we're receiving adequate power, particularly under load such as the a/c. We also use a surge guard, even at home. We live in a rural area that is prone to lightning and power outages. The old adage: Safety first! applies.Best,Juli W.Minden, NV'06 26.5 RB
Re: AC popping (house) breaker Reply #14 – February 09, 2019, 09:35:58 pm Hi Phylana, in your first post you write, 'when I turn on my AC after a while it throws the house breaker.' What/which do you mean by "house breaker"? and then'The 20 amp breaker in the Converter is what is being tripped. ' but in a later post you write that only the air conditioning [AC] breaker is releasing [popping, opening, disengaging].Then in a later posting you write;' I'm talking less than 6 or 7 amps on the 15 amp outlet circuit.' Which outlet circuit?and'When I was living in here in the cold in IL I would throw the breaker when I overloaded the outlet breaker'Which breaker and which outlet breaker?Please clarify these matters so some appropriate suggestions can be made.Initial thoughts in my mind are that if the AC unit is 15 years old it might be malfunctioning. AC units use an alternating current [which is also abbreviated to AC in order to confuse everyone] motor to run the compressor. In the milliseconds upon start, they essentially represent a short circuit and use a huge amount of current [amperage]. CBs have a delay of a few more milliseconds before they will release because of excessive current draw. As air C units age that start draw can become longer and might exceed the CBs allowance. Most air units use cheap components that result in what is called a "hard start" which results in that huge amperage draw for milliseconds. Those cheap components loose efficiency as they age. If anyone wants to reduce that spike they can install better electronics that result in a "soft start".Also, if you do open the AC circuit panel to inspect,jiggle,remove CBs, please have it depowered. No power from campground and no power from generator, and, if you are wired in a certain manner, no power to this panel from an inverter.Harvey 1 Likes
Re: AC popping (house) breaker Reply #15 – February 09, 2019, 09:53:43 pm JuliWIs this the device you are describing?TRC AECM20020-3-012 Electra Check Digital Monitor for All AC Power Sources,... As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: AC popping (house) breaker Reply #16 – February 10, 2019, 12:31:57 pm A plug-in AC monitor can tell you the line voltage (and in some cases the frequency, although that's not usually a concern in the US), but it doesn't protect you from anything. An "EMS" such as the Progressive Industries EMS-LCHW30 has a (remotely mountable) display that tells you the voltage, amperage, line frequency, and warns of incorrect polarity at the power post. More important, it will disconnect or refuse to connect if any of those values is too far from normal. And of course it protects your rig from surges and spikes.For example, when I was staying in an old campground a couple summers ago and the voltage dropped to 99V, my EMS shut down the connection, preventing my air conditioner from being damaged. In short, an EMS is much more useful than a plug-in voltage readout, and in my opinion, well worth the extra money. 1 Likes
Re: AC popping (house) breaker Reply #17 – February 10, 2019, 12:58:02 pm The monitor looks similar to the Good Governor electrical monitor that a lot of us owned years ago.While it will let you know if the voltage is getting too high or too low, you must be watching to know to act on it.An RV surge and electrical protector will automatically cut the power off if the supply circuit is wired incorrectly or if the voltage goes too high or too low. It will also protect against electrical surges.These device are available as portable units and hardwired.My preferred protector is Progressive Industries Hardwired EMS-HW30C, with the remote scrolling digital display.Progressive Industries EMS-HW30COnce installed, there is nothing for you to do other than plugging the rig in, the protector analyses the power for few seconds before making the connection. There is a remote wall-mount that shows voltage, amperage being used and any error codes.The protector can be wired to protect power from the generator too.Larry 1 Likes
Re: AC popping (house) breaker Reply #18 – February 10, 2019, 01:37:43 pm We have the HW30C and I'm happy we do. However, there are two things to remember. You should open the top maybe once a year or so and check that the connections are secure. This is a thread I started about what happened when something may have gotten loose. Electrical Emergency - Progressive Industries EMS FailureWe had never checked ours until that happened to our friend and it was fine and that was several years after it was installed.Also, I've found that the setting for the voltage reading is off a bit and it works to our disadvantage when the voltage drops. The EMS is set to cut power to the rig when the voltage drops to 103 volts. It has happened a few times over the years. I've learned that the setting is lower than the actual voltage coming into the coach. I didn't realize this until our friend had her unit replaced and learned that the factory did not have the new one set properly and the installer had to adjust it. Progressive had no instructions on how to do this and the installer had to call them to figure that out. I've not adjusted mine yet and it generally hasn't been a problem other than a few times.Jim
Re: AC popping (house) breaker Reply #19 – February 10, 2019, 01:56:12 pm I have the PI portable 30A EMS; this is the fourth unit I've had, and I would not hook up to power without one. The units are not cheap, but replacing the wiring in one's rig would be a lot more expensive and problematic.The first unit, a different brand and not a true EMS, sacrificed itself to a lightning strike in a campground outside of RMNP; no damage to the wiring in the rig. The second one worked fine, but I gave it to a friend who needed it. I donated the third PI to a Ladeze 'yard sale'. Now I have #4, and it's not going anywhere except on whatever power pedestal/hookup I might use. I do chain/padlock it to the pedestal when in an RV park or campground. The portable unit is more vulnerable than a hardwired one, and the hardwired unit also protects against 'dirty' power from the generator. But, the portable works for me; if it disappears, I will think about a hardwired unit. I know a guy.... YMMV, as ever. 1 Likes
Re: AC popping (house) breaker Reply #20 – February 10, 2019, 08:57:01 pm Yes, Steve, that's it. I agree with the other comments on having to keep an eye on it. It's of most use when first hooking up and particularly in summer weather when one can see the supplied power drop as more rigs hook up. Our Surge Guard gives us more precise info and has, indeed, cut off power from a bad power stack. While this isn't exactly the conversation, we had a different issue in a park in Grants Pass, OR a couple of years ago. We hooked up in the assigned spot but something was terribly wrong - reversed polarity. The park manager couldn't see the problem until we told him our rig is aluminum not fiberglass. Good grief. Juli W.Minden, NV'-6 26.5 RB 1 Likes
Re: AC popping (house) breaker Reply #21 – February 11, 2019, 02:35:27 am Hi Juli, I'm glad you are still with us. If you hadn't had the EMS to turn off the power, and remained plugged in, the skin, locks, metal parts both internal and external, chromed bumpers, etc. would have been at line potential, 115VAC in reference to ground. Especially the water pipe and possibly the pedestal electric housing. Both of those would have posed a hazard, along with the dirt ground. If whomever had connected the hot lead in the pedestal to the neutral connection, could easily have connected the surface of the electrical pedestal to the hot lead also. Potentially lethal that close to a water pipe, usually a 'real' grounded conductor. A situation waiting for a posthumous lawsuit. RonB(edit) The fact that the ground and neutral are connected to each other inside the power distribution box of the LD, means that that hot lead would be grounded the moment you plugged into the pedestal. That should pop the 30 amp breaker in the pedestal, and prevent the motorhome from being electrified....RB
Re: AC popping (house) breaker Reply #22 – February 11, 2019, 07:46:43 pm Yes. The power was shut off instantly. It's hard to imagine a park manager not knowing about such things but it does happen. We were there! Before we moved to another site, we strolled over and checked the power. I hope someone checked and fixed the problem before someone else hooked up in that spot. Mercy. Best,Juli W.
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