Hooray for rot repair!! December 30, 2018, 10:48:13 am So to start off our new year me and the DW discovered the only soft spot on our whole rig has grown, this has been a very wet winter and no doubt our end caps have expanded and contracted during the snow/rain to the point of leaking. While pulling back the paneling we found a significant amount of rot along both lower edges of the rear window. Looks as if part of it was old damage and now whatever sealing was done is leaking again. My plan to cut what I have shown and let it dry out, we built a short term shelter on the rear of the rig to keep the rain off this week. As far as interior it’s just a simple operation of removing damaged wood and replacing with good. On the exterior I will be removing the lower half of both end caps and cutting out/replacing any damage I find. The real question is whether or not I should remove the window. My rig is a 2000 and it appears I have the rubber window seal (from what I can tell looking on the inside). More than likely my leaking is coming from where the window meets the seam in the aluminum, but if the end cap is leaking the water could be running down that seam and into my window framing. As far as end caps go we are gong to try and save what we have, there are a few cracked areas I plan to cut a relief in and repair with epoxy. As far as reattaching I would really prefer to bed them in a good layer of the locktite sealant the mothership recommends and screw them down with stainless. The only worry I have is that screwing them will not allow proper expansion and contraction, so any advice is appreciated. I will be working on this project throughout the week, if anyone has ever wanted specific pictures of a repair like this let me know. And as always any advice is hugely appreciated. 2 Likes
Re: Hooray for rot repair!! Reply #1 – December 30, 2018, 12:33:35 pm Great pics of big job. No rot behind shower?
Re: Hooray for rot repair!! Reply #2 – December 30, 2018, 12:39:29 pm That’s a good question, the bottom framing board on the shower side behind the bumper is in significantly better shape than the toilet side...so I’m assuming the framing Behind the cap is in better shape. That being said the cap is coming off and any repairs will be made. I’ve been cutting and working it this morning and in order to cut away at the rot below the window some of the stapes that hold the outer skin on under the windows are unseated, that being said I’m going to go ahead and remove the rear window in order to make my repair as thorough as possible and in order to completely renew all sealant. Current plan is to use the locktite under the caps after repairs, afterwards I’ll add screws while the sealant sets up and then I’ll trim out the cap edges will fast cure 5200...unless someone here has a better idea?? 1 Likes
Re: Hooray for rot repair!! Reply #3 – December 30, 2018, 02:04:07 pm I was wondering what your plans are to match the wall covering? Also; was all of this damage due to window leakage or end cap leakage?Dale from Downey.
Re: Hooray for rot repair!! Reply #4 – December 30, 2018, 05:45:41 pm Keep the pics coming. Intetresting and informative to watch progress on projects like this.
Re: Hooray for rot repair!! Reply #5 – December 30, 2018, 07:17:22 pm Hi Cor2man; Your wallpaper can be matched with many available vinyl 'papers'. White would not be out of place. The outside corners, where the corner caps meet, are capped by the factory now with a 1" wide aluminum strap. That started somewhere around 2004. I covered my corner cap joints with strap I got at LD. I had to do the bending. I'm including a picture of mine. I had originally put those screws in to keep the caps tight. I should have done just the cover strip without the screws. The holes for the screws are so close to the edge that the corners eventually break out. RonB 2 Likes
Re: Hooray for rot repair!! Reply #6 – December 30, 2018, 07:21:14 pm I believe I will toss some eternabond tape where the caps meet, I understand it won’t look the best but it will be a good way to keep water out long term.Does anyone know a good solvent for the adhesive the caps are held on with? Before I reseal I would like that as clean as possible. I have scraped it with a vibratory tool but acetone seems useless when removing the small leftover residue.
Re: Hooray for rot repair!! Reply #7 – December 30, 2018, 08:46:26 pm Quote from: RonB - December 30, 2018, 07:17:22 pmHi Cor2man; Your wallpaper can be matched with many available vinyl 'papers'. White would not be out of place. The outside corners, where the corner caps meet, are capped by the factory now with a 1" wide aluminum strap. That started somewhere around 2004. I covered my corner cap joints with strap I got at LD. I had to do the bending. I'm including a picture of mine. I had originally put those screws in to keep the caps tight. I should have done just the cover strip without the screws. The holes for the screws are so close to the edge that the corners eventually break out. RonBGood tip, Ron, I also covered my '02 corner caps with EternaBond, which works but eventually uglies up. Think I might get that aluminum strap.Chris
Re: Hooray for rot repair!! Reply #8 – December 30, 2018, 08:54:47 pm I figure the eternabond may get ugly after a year or two but then heck I’ll just peel the sheath off and apply a new layer, in my tests the adhesive bonds together pretty well. Does anyone have a specific sealant for glueing all the patches framework together as I fix my rotten sections?
Re: Hooray for rot repair!! Reply #9 – December 31, 2018, 06:03:20 pm Progress. I was able to remove 95 percent of the compromised wood. This was the best that could be done within reason and I think any fragments of leftover rot will be negligible. Biggest concern was the amount of rot on the Luan paneling attached to the Outer skin, sadly the only option was to cut out and scrap the Luan back wherever possible until I reached “good wood”. This Luan was replaced with Luan plywood, the difficult part is framing it all back and matching the rear body lines while also trying to adhere and reattach Luan to the outer paneling, this was quite the challenge. After hours of fine tuning we had all the necessary pieces to reassemble the drives side corner and adhere the new Luan to the skin, 3m spray adhesive was used on the Luan and the framing was installed with liquid nails and staples, I will be scabbing some extra boards to my patches to regain all possible rigidity. The biggest worry is that my aluminum paneling is countered to my new body framing at the proper angle to allow the end cap to seat properly as well as the window. We will see how well that works out but I did everything I could to match the original framing. It was clear the factory had liberally applied sealant anywhere the window had a potential to leak, this includes the curves of the window and anywhere a body seam came into contact with the window gasket. I will be adding extra sealant to any questionable areas just as the factory did. This is certainly a repair I will complete, my biggest concern currently is just resealing perfectly to make this repair last. Let me know how it looks this far! 1 Likes
Re: Hooray for rot repair!! Reply #10 – December 31, 2018, 06:51:54 pm Big job cor2man, it cost around 4k to have this particular repair done at the factory so your labor is paying off. Any idea what your cost of materials will be? End caps I imagine is the major expense.
Re: Hooray for rot repair!! Reply #11 – December 31, 2018, 07:00:35 pm Actually, I am planning to save my original caps. I am rebuilding any damage/cracks with epoxy. Hopefully they are sturdy enough after to continue to serve their purpose, my biggest hurdle is deciding how to reinstall them (see my seperate thread).Me being in NC the factory isn’t really an option, and I got my rig for 15k so spending thousands on some rot repair wouldn’t make sense. Hopefully I do a quality job to last another decade. As far as cost, it will be hundreds, but that’s well worth having an awesome RV in my mid twenties, me and the wife Love this thing. 4 Likes
Re: Hooray for rot repair!! Reply #12 – December 31, 2018, 08:53:09 pm Quote from: Cor2man - December 31, 2018, 06:03:20 pmBiggest concern was the amount of rot on the Luan paneling attached to the Outer skin, sadly the only option was to cut out and scrap the Luan back wherever possible until I reached “good wood”. After hours of fine tuning we had all the necessary pieces to reassemble the drives side corner and adhere the new Luan to the skin, 3m spray adhesive was used on the Luan and the framing was installed with liquid nails and staples,IThe biggest worry is that my aluminum paneling is countered to my new body framing at the proper angle to allow the end cap to seat properly as well as the window. We will see how well that works out but I did everything I could to match the original framing. Looking good!We have been in a cell-free place for the past week or I would have commented earlier.Replacing the rotted luan has always been a hassle but it needs to be done to prevent the aluminum skin from dents and to adds a little structural support.For the structural repairs, I use Liquid Nails polyurethane construction adhesive.On the framing behind the end caps, the Factory coats the exposed wood with polyurethane, to provide extra protection.At the junction where the end caps meets, covering the gap with the Factory metal straps is fine and looks good.I have been using Eternabond tape for the past few years to cover the gap. The gap is under stress and moves on rough roads, leading to what ever is covering it to eventually tear apart. Eternabond tape is flexible and, if prepped correctly, will last several years. Clean the gap and fill with 3M 5200 Fast Cure before covering with Eternabond.To attach the caps, I prefer 3M 5200 FC over the Locktite product, having better experiences, long term with it.. If money is a concern, the Loctite is a lot cheaper, but you do get what you pay for.I also screw the caps into position, using #8 stainless steel sheet metal screws. spaced at 4" or 6" intervals. Add a screw wherever it is necessary to pull the cap into place, the caps are flexible. The Factory installs screws in such situations too.For repairing the old cap, if used, a plastic epoxy works great to fix cracks and tears.PlasticWeld Syringe | J-B WeldRear end leaks have become the most common areas of rot. where once the front nose was the problem spot.Leaks around the rear window and rear end caps are the most common source of leakage.Larry 1 Likes
Re: Hooray for rot repair!! Reply #13 – December 31, 2018, 09:09:45 pm That’s very helpful advise Larry, what method do you use to entire the stainless screws are sealed? Do you bed the end caps into fresh 5200?I figure I’ll use the locktite to seal over the exposed wood but I’ll get the 5200 fast cure to attach the caps. I’ve already got some 2 part epoxy setting up on the first cap where damage is present, hopefully when I reattach the expoxy holds!
Re: Hooray for rot repair!! Reply #14 – January 02, 2019, 01:03:43 pm On the one hand I could extend sympathy that such repairs are necessary, but I am in awe of your knowledge, skill, & tenacity to take on such an endeavor. Thx for sharing the pix & process...like so may things folks share on LDO, I feel smarter for just having seen/read it, even though it's not something I could ever tackle myself. Looking forward to more shares & the grand reveal upon completion.Lynne
Re: Hooray for rot repair!! Reply #15 – January 02, 2019, 01:15:40 pm When I got our Lazy Daze last summer my whole hope was that the quality construction and aluminum walls would help me avoid the common industry issue of a rotted out camper. I actually bought it a week after turning down a camper due to delamination and signs of water damage.That being said, now that I have been inside mine I have lost some faith in the construction practices but also gained confidence to tackle repairs on my own. I certainly wouldn’t want to remove the skins (As some forum members have) and I also wouldn’t want to do overhead repairs. To be thorough I believe in 2019 I will make a goal to remove and reseal all the windows just to be sure. Knowing the camper we have grown to enjoy is leaking and being damaged by something as simple as rain keeps me up at night, but I believe this is simply just park of owning a home on wheels. In other news...more updates on our progress!
Re: Hooray for rot repair!! Reply #16 – January 02, 2019, 02:58:34 pm RVs present an interesting set of conditions that require certain trade-offs and financial considerations.For LDs, the prime selling points are the large windows and high quality interior appointments. The windows are (very) heavy, and require a rigid frame to both support and prevent body torque/twist (that could result in cracked glass). Given the period of development, wood was (and still is) the chosen material for the body frame. However, that being so, the next logical situation would naturally be leaks and rot over time, which I would guess all LDs experience, even if not entirely evident to even the most diligent owners.The other factor is of course price, and the need for product turnover and repeat sales. If LD or SOB made an expensive, absolutely bullet proof rig - say out of composite materials - it would both price itself out of the market, and possibly create a body/shell that would outlive a rapidly depreciating and technologically outdated chassis.IMO, there are two possible solutions: (1) get out of the custom body class C or class A buying segment by getting a unibody class B rig; or (2) get out of the MH segment altogether and get a (high quality) trailer. Both alternatives have drawbacks, of course.Class Bs are both expensive and small. Expensive because the pressed steel frame/body have to be literally hacked up to fit all the normal RV appliances/appointments. Small because they're just vans - albeit some might be oversized. Trailers by their very nature are, well, trailers, and all that entails.So, my zen solution is to use your LD with zero expectations. If it leaks, it leaks, but it will still last for 10, 15+ years. Or, if you can't handle the thought of imperfection, get an Airstream and buff it out to your heart's content. The TV/TT route requires money, but the use it and forget it alternative is essentially $ free, even if it has a psychic cost to typical LD owners. 6 Likes
Re: Hooray for rot repair!! Reply #17 – January 02, 2019, 03:15:20 pm Quote from: Cor2man - January 02, 2019, 01:15:40 pmTo be thorough I believe in 2019 I will make a goal to remove and reseal all the windows just to be sure. The window sealant shrinks with age and forms depressions where water can sit. This is especially a problem on the sloped rear window, where water is slow to drain. Cleaning and resealing around all the windows will go a long way to reducing potential leaks.It's huge job to pull all the windows, you might want to give resealing around the windows perimeters consideration..Larry
Re: Hooray for rot repair!! Reply #18 – January 02, 2019, 03:28:09 pm The previous owners (The Koontz Family!) sealed around all the windows with a clear sealant..in order to reseal and get a good quality bead removing windows to thoroughly remove seals is likely our best bet. Also that will give us a chance to discover any other leaking although we really hope that’s not the case. There are surely downsides to all areas of the RV segment, a class B/campervan was our original plan but the size offered by a class C just can’t be beat. While a lazy daze has its disadvantages we have literally went and walked through brand new class c’s just to marvel at how much better our 20 year old LD is both designed and built. I’d be hard pressed to find another setup I’d prefer....if anything we hope to someday buy a new/newer lazy daze although the changes are minor compared to ours. It’s a special company building a special product IMO. 2 Likes
Re: Hooray for rot repair!! Reply #19 – January 02, 2019, 05:15:35 pm These pictures are WONDERFUL to see what's under the skin, thank you! May I have comments on these three water intrusion questions?1) If I have a fogged rear window in my 2005 RK, shall I assume I have water leaks/damage in the rear? I had been planning to visit my sister in CA and let the mothership put a new window in, but now I am thinking I might need to pile up a bit more cash for water damage....2) What is our method for assessing water intrusion? Do we just have to wait til there are water marks on the wall, or wait for musty odor? I have NO odor in this coach.3) As to intrusion at the corner caps.. I am pretty sure mine have had no sealant applied since the unit was new, but I notice it has hardened, and tho, still in place/looks secure -- there IS cracking here and there, should it be routed out and resealed just on general principles? I see some of you just apply eternabond over existing... Prior owner/s stored 5 years full garage, then 5 years under canvas cover in the south and it's now in (open one side) covered storage in Michigan. Thanks all, and thanks AGAIN for those pictures of your project -- so helpful to see "behind the curtain."MJB
Re: Hooray for rot repair!! Reply #20 – January 02, 2019, 05:47:56 pm So to answer a few questions I have attached pictures of what the sealant applies under the factory looks like after 18 years. I would place no trust in it, it’s frail to say the least. My top cap has next to Zero separation, I’ve added pictures of the seams and I plan to scrap away all sealant and use the 5200 FC to reseal the top cap edges as well as add 2 screws above the seam. I know nothing about fogged windows, if I was to guess I would say there’s plenty of situations where the window sealant allowed moisture to enter the panes without there being water intrusion into the RV.I’ve alwso attached a picture of the joint on the bottom of the window sill, this joint was part of my leaking and is clearly placed to permit water intrusion if not sealed completely. I will be adding a large amount of locktite to the corners and all seams when I seat the window, by having the window out I am able to apply sealant directly to the seams and ensure my leaks are fixed. In my particular case I was able to open up the access panel to the rear wiring next to the toilet from day 1, there was never any sign whatsoever of water damage, but indeed the framework I was checking was simply falling apart on the opposite side. Looking forward, any end cap with cracking needs to be sealed, and the best way to seal is to remove the cap and repair the backside with 2 Part abs epoxy, then go ahead and remove/reseal the wood structure, and then reattach the end cap by whatever means you feel will last. Obviously stuff can be sealed at the seams and likely will be fine for years to come, but at this point since I’m doing all this repair I will be leaning towards the more thorough methods of resealing. 1 Likes
Re: Hooray for rot repair!! Reply #21 – January 02, 2019, 05:51:40 pm Survey time....Below is a lineup of stick on window gasket from my local supplier...on the left is the original gasket...it’s been smashed under the window for 2 decades and it was in horrible shape despite the PO sealing around the windows edge. Not sure what profile to go with, I’m guessing any profile that isn’t too large will work. If anyone has any knowledge on gaskets feel free to chime in!
Re: Hooray for rot repair!! Reply #22 – January 02, 2019, 06:34:44 pm Quote from: Cor2man - January 02, 2019, 01:15:40 pmThat being said, now that I have been inside mine I have lost some faith in the construction practicesI was a bit disheartened myself when I saw staples where there should be screws in your pics. Not impressed by that.
Re: Hooray for rot repair!! Reply #23 – January 02, 2019, 06:49:40 pm Staples are good because they are flexible and ideal for maintaining structure, obviously screws hold tight but they are also difficult to install where the staples were placed. This is the same reason nails are used in framing instead of screws. There was a sizable number of screws but they cannot be seen because they were installed from the outside in.I plan to use screws where they were originally when I add some extra framing to where I patched the corner. One must be careful when screwing framing this size together since splitting is a very real possibility on 1.5 inch framing. Truthfully staples hold pretty darn good, if you’ve ever done renovations on a mobile home you will find nearly everything is stapled and it doesn’t come apart easily. The trick when doing these repairs is to pre drill for screws and have the structure stapled and glued before any screws are added to keep from shifting things around. 2 Likes
Re: Hooray for rot repair!! Reply #24 – January 02, 2019, 06:53:12 pm Quote from: Cor2man - January 02, 2019, 06:49:40 pmStaples are good because they are flexible and ideal for maintaining structure, obviously screws hold tight but they are also difficult to install where the staples were placed. There was a sizable number of screws but they cannot be seen because they were installed from the outside in.I plan to use screws in strategic points where they were originally when I add some extra framing to where I patched the corner. One must be careful when screwing framing this size together since splitting is a very real possibility on 1.5 inch framing. Truthfully staples hold pretty darn good, if you’ve ever done renovations on a mobile home you will find nearly everything is stapled and it doesn’t come apart easily. The trick when doing these repairs is to pre drill for screws and have the structure stapled and glued before any screws are added to keep from shifting things around. Pre drilling is essential. My thoughts on staples are from what I've seen in cabinetry and interior of mass produced RVs that fall apart in a few years. I may be biased though in that I've built three houses that I've lived in and done complete remodels of several more homes I flipped. I'm a glue it and screw it guy. Never built an RV though so that could be different.Edit: In the spirit of accuracy first house was just a one room cabin mostly built with a chainsaw so it may not count. Lol 3 Likes
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