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Topic: Solar System - Placement of Charger and Inverter (Read 435 times) previous topic - next topic
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Solar System - Placement of Charger and Inverter
The time has come to install a solar system on my Lazy Daze. It will mainly consist of a single 320 watt solar panel, a 40 amp MPPT charge controller, and a 1500 watt pure sine wave inverter. I have pretty much all the parts but I will have the installation done by a professional. See also attached pictures and a diagram (from the maker of the charge controller).

Upon receiving the inverter I was a little bit shocked by its size. Wow, that thing is massive! Originally I thought to have everything installed in the cabinet below the refrigerator but now I'm wondering whether this is really the best location (or maybe becoming to hot, or maybe just be a waste of cabinet space).

Would it also be possible to install charge controller and inverter (and what not) behind the driver seat? Would it then be better to route the cable from the panel to the charge controller directly down through the roof or is it better to use the fridge vent? Would it make sense for such an installation to take out the driver seat, and would this be a big action?

It would be great to get some great tips here (as is usually the case). Thanks.

By the way - I plan to come to the Lazy Daze meeting in Quartzsite in January. If somebody here who is also going there knows that she or he can do such an installation and wants to do it (for money, of course), please let me know. I would love to be present (and maybe even helping) when this is being done. That would certainly be a great learning.

Nick
2001 26.5 Mid-Bath
Re: Solar System - Placement of Charger and Inverter
Reply #1 –
I have never seen a 320 watt single solar panel. Can't imagine where it fits.

I do have the Samlex inverter. They sell a remote switch for it which is very convenient.

The generator input and original transfer switch is not shown in your diagram. Putting the inverter and controller behind the driver's seat seems like it would make the wiring very difficult. Usually these things are near the power panel or battery. I have an RB so am not familiar with component locations on the MB.

I did put the additional transfer switch in the generator line, not the shore power line.
Harry 2006RB
Re: Solar System - Placement of Charger and Inverter
Reply #2 –
Northern Arizona Wind & Sun in Flagstaff sells several 300+ watt panels that fit in the space between AC and emergency exit of my Lazy Daze. See attached plan. I bought this one: Hanwha Q.Peak G5 DUO 320 Watt Monocrystalline Solar Panel | Northern Arizona....

The Mid-Bath Lazy Daze has the fridge directly behind the driver seat and the house batteries are below the fridge. If the equipment can be installed behind the driver seat everything will be very close to the batteries except for the "normal" 110V wiring from the inverter to the 110V panel (and that wiring will be in any case around 4 or 5 ft long).   
2001 26.5 Mid-Bath
Re: Solar System - Placement of Charger and Inverter
Reply #3 –
Shading of the solar array is the biggest bane in siting. This applies to roof items as well as trees and other environmental blockage. Since all the cells in a panel are wired in series, a small shadow can dramatically drop output. This is the main reason most installations use several panels wired in parallel, the second reason being to fit more output into an irregular roof space. Sounds like a good price for the panel, but you might want to consider returning it for several smaller ones.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Solar System - Placement of Charger and Inverter
Reply #4 –
Thank you. Being from Arizona we are aware of Arizona Wind and Sun. I could use another 320 watts!

This isn't helping you with your install.  Either of the two solar vendors in Quartzsite would probably put it in for you.

The new Christy Minstrels are playing at Quartzsite January 12th which I try to attend. I don't know when the LD gathering is.
Harry 2006RB
Re: Solar System - Placement of Charger and Inverter
Reply #5 –
Attached another plan that shows the available spaces on the roof. The roof is cluttered with stuff. I played around with the plan and a variety of panels a lot and could not find a way to place separate panels totaling around 300 watt (unless I would eliminate the emergency exit which seems a little radical). However, I hear what you are saying, Steve. I might look into that again and will make sure that the panel is placed nicely in the middle between AC and emergency exit if I stick to the one I bought already.

Harry, some information about the Lazy Daze gathering can be found here: Roger's Rambling's and RV Recipes. It is also mentioned in some other thread here in the forum. Maybe we will meet there!

Nick
2001 26.5 Mid-Bath
Re: Solar System - Placement of Charger and Inverter
Reply #6 –
I have a somewhat similar setup, but with a smaller (physically and rating wise) inverter and charge controller. 

I put all of that parts in the space behind the compartment that is under the fridge.  If you unscrew the brass screw you see on the back wall of the compartment, you will get to the plastic battery compartment. 

Short wire runs make sense, so IMO that region is a good place to put stuff. 

I ran regular romex from that area to the space below the stove (near the water tank) and put a single wall receptacle that runs off of the inverter.   It's not an ideal location, since cords frequently run across the walkway from that outlet to the dinette, but it works for me. 

FWIW, you might consider the following if you want to fit the equipment into that hidden space.  It works for me, but might not meet your specs. 

SunSaver MPPT - Morningstar Corporation

SureSine - Morningstar Corporation

Rich
'03 MB in NC
2003 MB
Re: Solar System - Placement of Charger and Inverter
Reply #7 –
Looking at the panel link it appears it is two panels joined. Less of a shade problem.
Harry 2006RB
Re: Solar System - Placement of Charger and Inverter
Reply #8 –

Rich, it would be great if I could fit my equipment into this hidden space but a 15 amp controller and a 300 watt inverter are less than what I want (I plan to move full-time into the RV next year). Maybe this space can be used as a kind of hidden safe ... I will look into that.

By the way - I have already a plug-in 500 watt inverter that works surprisingly well given its low price: Amazon.com: POTEK 500W Power Inverter DC 12V to 110V AC Car Converter with....
For 500 watt it has to be connected directly to the battery; when plugged into a 12 volt socket it can be used for up to 150 watt. I bought this inverter directly after getting the Lazy Daze and use it mainly for recharging my computer.

Nick

As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
2001 26.5 Mid-Bath
Re: Solar System - Placement of Charger and Inverter
Reply #9 –
Quote from: hbn7hj  - 
Looking at the panel link it appears it is two panels joined. Less of a shade problem.
Correct - that is at least what the guy from Wind & Sun told me.

I would like to come back to my original question: Is it a good or at least reasonable sounding idea to place charge controller and inverter directly behind the driver seat, or should I rather sacrifice the cabinet under the fridge for it?
2001 26.5 Mid-Bath
Re: Solar System - Placement of Charger and Inverter
Reply #10 –
What are you planning on using a 1500-watt inverter for?
If much usage is predicted., 320-watt isn't going to be enough solar to keep the battery fully charged in the shorter days of the year or even in the summer, depending. I would want at least 600-watts or generator time may be required to keep the coach battery charged. Multiple panels are better than one for combating shade from the antennas, the rooftop A/C and vent covers.

When installing large inverters in MBs, I usually install a second set of batteries under the refrigerator and the in inverter in the forward, driver's side exterior storage compartments, below the stock battery compartment.
This configuration provides the shorter battery cable runs, important when dealing with high average loads.
Plan on using some very thick battery cable and on using a professional grade crimper .
The photos below show how I configure da MB, installing a similar, 2000-watt inverter.
Prosine 2.0 Inverter | Flickr

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Solar System - Placement of Charger and Inverter
Reply #11 –
Besides smaller devices like computer monitor (60 watts), laptop charger (80 watts), immersion blender (300 watts) I might at one point want to get a small coffeemaker (800 watts) and very maybe very occasionally the microwave (I have not used a microwave in decades).

I recently met a couple (esteemed members of this forum) that lives and travels since 10 years in their Lazy Daze with 320 watt panels on the roof and two house batteries - and they say they never had a problem with running out of power. I think that justifies some hope that 320 watts will be enough for me as a single person (and for emergencies there is always the generator).

In regards to the location of charge controller and inverter I have to admit that I never thought of the storage compartment below the batteries (oops). That is, of course, a great location.

On the other hand - are there really no opinions about putting charge controller and inverter behind the driver seat? Is that location so bad that it is not worth to comment on it? Should I be embarrassed and hide behind sunglasses (8)) to even think of it?
2001 26.5 Mid-Bath
Re: Solar System - Placement of Charger and Inverter
Reply #12 –
I agree that separate individual panels offer much more flexibility and are less vulnerable to shading. I've attached a photo of my former LD midbath with six 100 W panels on the roof. I did have to remove the TV antenna to make room, but I don't have a TV, so that was no sacrifice. :-) Even with the antenna in place, you could certainly fit four of Renogy's small, highly efficient 100 W Eclipse panels. Connected in series-parallel, these would give you more power than a single 320 W panel while offering much better protection from partial shading.

Let's say you can only fit four 100 W panels or one 320 W panel on your roof, and they turn out to be not quite sufficient to support your power needs in wintertime when the days are short. You could add a couple of panels on the ground, propped up with sticks to a better angle. They should be pretty close in voltage to whatever you have on the roof. Ground panels will also prove handy in summertime, when you want to park in the shade but still get some solar power by putting panels out on the sun. I carry two 100 W Renogy Eclipse panels for these situations. I've tried flexible panels, which take up less space, for this use, but have found them to be overpriced and unreliable. I ended up throwing them away. Friends report similar experiences. I wouldn't waste money on flexibles.

Behind the driver's seat is a pretty tight space for electrical gear, and you're likely to get tired of listening to your inverter's fan running. I think it's a less than optimal location. I agree with everything Larry said. If you mount your inverter to the side wall or ceiling of that outside compartment below the battery compartment, most of the compartment will still be available for storage. I kept my cords and leveling blocks there. (I also had a 30 A Progressive Industries EMS mounted to the ceiling of that compartment. (An EMS protects you against miswired outlets, too-high and too-low voltages, and out-of-spec line frequency, as well as stopping surges. It's highly recommended.)
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Solar System - Placement of Charger and Inverter
Reply #13 –
To answer the actual question - I think it's an Ok location.  It's close to the batteries and the fridge, which makes for short wire runs. 

I would be hesitant just because I use that space for other things.  You also have to be mindful that clothes or blankets might fall from the top bunk and block airflow.  It might also be covered in the winter if you use a blanket to separate the van cab from the living area, as many do in cold weather.  I selected a fanless inverter because the noise would bug me and many seem to die every few years. 

To give unsolicited advice (worth what you paid for it) - Some people find that their actual power usage patterns vary substantially from what they expect.  Since solar sizing is the kind of thing you only want to do once due to cost, you might want to live with things for a while before making a final decision. 

For example, we use propane instead of electricity for coffee.  My laptop uses very little power, and it uses half the power of my previous laptop.  My ipad is sufficient for much of what I do and both (ipad and laptop) can charge directly from a 12v outlet.  LED lighting has drastically reduced the amount of power we use daily. 

You might decide you can get by on half of what you have planned, or you might decide you would enjoy double what you have planned.  Either way, it's the kind of thing you want to be sure about so you only have to do it once. 

IMO, of course.

Rich
'03 MB in NC

2003 MB
Re: Solar System - Placement of Charger and Inverter
Reply #14 –
One other thing: as Larry said, "Plan on using some very thick battery cable and on using a professional grade crimper." Do not try to economize by using one of the cheap "hammer crimpers." They don't do a good job, and there's a high risk of smashing your fingers or thumb. (It happened to Mike Sylvester when he was installing the system on my rig.) Use the crimper shown in Larry's Flickr post.

And use FTZ power lugs, not "starter lugs" or battery lugs. Use Ancor tinned marine cable. Shrink-wrap and label both ends of every cable. If you're going to do the job (or have it done), make sure it's done right.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Solar System - Placement of Charger and Inverter
Reply #15 –
Quote from: Andy Baird  - 
Shrink-wrap and label both ends of every cable. If you're going to do the job (or have it done), make sure it's done right.
Label things for somebody else to know what is what.   Next year when you go back to work on it and have forgotten what you did, you will be that somebody else.
Joel
Joel & Terry Wiley
dog Zeke
2013  31 IB   Orwan   / 2011 CRV Tow'd LWEROVE
Re: Solar System - Placement of Charger and Inverter
Reply #16 –
Quote from: Andy Baird  - 
"Since all the cells in a panel are wired in series..."

Actually, they typically are not. Even a 100 W panel usually has two strings of series-connected cells, with the strings connected in parallel. In a 320 W panel I'd expect to see multiple strings of cells. This provides at least some protection from partial-shading effects.

I admit there may be other high-cell-count designs out there I am not familiar with, but the typical open-circuit silicon cell voltage is 0.57 volts, so a 100W 36-cell panel would have an open-circuit voltage of 0.57 X 36 = 20.5V, if all wired in series. This means no parallel/series connection possible within the panel. Typically, bypass diodes are arranged internally to prevent complete panel dropout if a cell or two are shaded, but at a reduced voltage.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Solar System - Placement of Charger and Inverter
Reply #17 –
Quote from: Nick R.  - 
I recently met a couple (esteemed members of this forum) that lives and travels since 10 years in their Lazy Daze with 320 watt panels on the roof and two house batteries - and they say they never had a problem with running out of power. I think that justifies some hope that 320 watts will be enough for me as a single person (and for emergencies there is always the generator).

And I have worked with many full timers who needed more like 500-600 watts to cover their daily needs.
Do these esteemed members use an inverter to run an electric coffee pot and microwave, you will impressed how much power they consume.

Until you have done an energy use analysis, you don't know how much power you actually consume in a day.  Unless you plan to only travel during the long days of summer, there is the big drop off in solar during the short winter days where you need almost twice as many panels as you do in the summer, to generate the same power. Many full timers overcome this problem by staying in RV parks during the winter. Is this what you intend on doing?
I suggest installing a battery capacity meter to help determine how much power you do use in a day. It can installed in the stock LD electrical system and helps you in keeping the battery alive longer, by not over discharging it..
I prefer the Victron battery meter for easy installation.
Victron BMV-700 Battery Monitor - - Amazon.com

For ease of monitoring the electrical system and the availability of space, I like to mount both the solar controller and battery capacity meter in the padded wall, on the left side of the MB's kitchen cabinets. The solar wiring can be bought into the top of the cabinet, looking something like this, but with different meters.


While you are at it, consider installing a hardwired surge protector that protects both shore power and generator power.
Amazon.com: Progressive Industries EMS-HW30C Portable Electrical Management...

Larry

As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Solar System - Placement of Charger and Inverter
Reply #18 –
Quote from: Steve  - 
the typical open-circuit silicon cell voltage is 0.57 volts, so a 100W 36-cell panel would have an open-circuit voltage of 0.57 X 36 = 20.5V, if all wired in series. This means no parallel/series connection possible within the panel.
Steve

Thanks for the correction, Steve! Obviously I remembered wrong. I've gone back and corrected my post in order not to spread misinformation.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Solar System - Placement of Charger and Inverter
Reply #19 –

Larry brings up an important point: you really can't manage an electrical system without a good battery monitor. (Voltage readings are all but worthless for practical purposes.) Victron's BMV-700 is the cheapest one I'd recommend, but to me it makes sense to spend another sixty bucks and get the Bluetooth-equipped BMV-712. The advantage: you can monitor your system from your phone. You don't even need to mount the meter (mine's sitting under my bed, where I can't see it), so there's no need to run yet another cable and make yet another mounting hole in that end panel.

As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"