Sweet spot for a used LD March 02, 2018, 07:59:24 am Hi folks! Although I put my name in a few weeks ago for a new LD, I am still curious as to a good year used.While up in Montclair I spoke with Steve at length about LDs. When talking about the E450 chassis, he told me that the older 4 speeds, worked hard and would noticeably wind out going thru the gears. He said the 5 speeds were better and the newer 6 speed shifted gears effortlessly and quietly. My understanding is the E450 with a 4 speed became available in 2005. Another big change was in 2008 when it was offered with better suspension and brakes. I'm not sure when the E450 was offered with a 6-speed trans. My guess is the last few years to present. Truck mechanic I am not. In fact, I'm not as handy at working on a lot of stuff as I'd like to be. That's part of my reasoning for going new. I'd learn as I go without buying into a "work in progress." That doesn't mean that the right deal on a newer LD wouldn't be in the cards. Finding a sweet spot for dependability, usability, and built-in depreciation. Based on the aforementioned, it would seem the earliest would be a 05, with 08 or later ideal? Thoughts? Thanks in advance
Re: Sweet spot for a used LD Reply #1 – March 02, 2018, 08:59:52 am Our previous e450 -- a 2006 chassis, was a 5-speed. Our latest -- a 2017 chassis -- is a 6-speed, and I believe the first year that came so equipped. 1 Likes
Re: Sweet spot for a used LD Reply #2 – March 02, 2018, 09:30:00 am As far as the sweet spot for depreciation, the graph in the spreadsheet attached to the first post of this thread may help:Used Lazy Daze Prices (2018 Version)
Re: Sweet spot for a used LD Reply #3 – March 02, 2018, 09:31:43 am I recently purchased a 2005 and I'm pretty happy with the 5 speed. The brakes, however, are another issue. They squeal badly after warmig up. Could be the last owner failed to service them regularly but my experience so far has not been great. New pads, rotors, slider pins and fluid flush have helped but I suspect the basic design is in need of improvement. The calipers get very hot and that appears to be normal for this year Ford truck. On the RV side the quality and workmanship of the LD factory shines through. I've had to replace individual components - water pump, light fixtures, rebuild faucets and that is to be expected on an older model but the propane, electrical, and water subsystems are excellent. The cabinetry is superb. I really like my rear kitchen. Bob 1 Likes
Re: Sweet spot for a used LD Reply #4 – March 02, 2018, 09:35:07 am There is a list of links on the home page of this message board; the Changes Through the Years link contains at least some of the information that you want.Lazy Dazes built on the Ford chassis had a 4-speed E4OD transmission before 1998; the transmission was changed to the 4-speed 4R100 during the 1998 chassis model year. A 5-speed (with tow haul) transmission, the 5R110, replaced the 4R100 in 2005; the latest transmission incarnation for the Ford E450 is the 6-speed 'Torqshift' , new in 2016 chassis year models.I have a 2003, so the transmission is a 4R100; it is what it is and I'm used to it, but I have never liked it because there's a lot of 'space' between gears, particularly on the upper end. The transmission 'hunts' for the correct gear and doesn't downshift at the right point in the range. (IMO) I have heard pro and con about the 5-speed (those who have 2005-2016 Fords may chime in), and mostly 'pro' for the 6-speed, but fewer reports because it's a new transmission.
Re: Sweet spot for a used LD Reply #5 – March 02, 2018, 09:38:46 am I sure do miss the "slip-n-slide" Powerglide in my '65 Chevelle- NOT!
Re: Sweet spot for a used LD Reply #6 – March 02, 2018, 10:13:57 am The sweet spot question is an often asked question in one form or another. The following link provides a list of significant changes in the various LD models from 1966 to 2013. Lazy Daze Pocket Guide The "sweet spot" varies for each buyer depending on what the buyer believes is important, budget, floor plan, and intended use. In many situations, the thoroughness of maintenance records and the overall condition of the LD often helps buyers with this decision. Several recent LD owner's have found their "sweet spot" in older, loved units, while others found their preferred Lazy Daze at the Factory. Hope this helps. 2 Likes
Re: Sweet spot for a used LD Reply #7 – March 02, 2018, 10:41:00 am This question is related to the core issue of diverging technology curves between vehicles and coaches. For decades, improvements in vehicle chassis, engines, drive trains, etc were somewhat constant & predictable. Coaches, OTOH, are fairly static, with periodic, but slower improvements in lighting (LED), power (solar), etc.Combined, class C RVs like Lazy Daze enjoyed the 'best of both worlds' by offering an excellent, reasonable stable platform to deliver a motorhome experience with minimal obsolescence, depreciation and/or value erosion. However, recent trends & rapid improvements in vehicle technologies - probably too numerous to list here - have exacerbated the coach/vehicle "gap", and are beginning to effect some considerations made by those who are experts in the field.Long(er) term forum members are familiar with the story of AB. In a nut-shell, when one objectively evaluates new vehicle platform offerings like the F-150, it's difficult to rationalize and justify an investment in a much older, essentially obsolete and (soon to be?) discontinued platform. The performance available in power, braking, safety, ride/comfort, tow ratings, etc make it very hard to ignore the F-150/250. Combined with a (trailable) coach that is stable, well built, and maintains value begins to look very appealing.We all know the old aphorism, "the only constant is change". Certain RV configurations may have provided an advantage and offered an excellent mix of convenience and experience at a point in time. But there is/was no guarantee the core, underlying dynamics would last forever. When people who are extremely knowledgeable take a fresh look and make a 180 degree change in their approach, it might behoove others to at least try to understand what drove a certain decision process. 1 Likes
Re: Sweet spot for a used LD Reply #8 – March 02, 2018, 03:26:35 pm I have heard pro and con about the 5-speed (those who have 2005-2016 Fords may chime in), and mostly 'pro' for the 6-speed, but fewer reports because it's a new transmission.[/quote]Now that I’ve learned to use it properly, I’m reasonably happy with the 5-speed in my ‘06 TK. For years I had only used the tow-haul feature for trying to maintain a steady speed when descending hills. And, for those same years, I’d curse the darn thing when it suddenly would downshift from drive to 3rd to the accompanying furious roar from the engine, causing me to disengage it. Eventually, I seldom bothered trying to use it. At the same time, for low those many years, when climbing hills I cursed the failure of the tranny to downshift at what I thought was the appropriate time to avoid lugging. I hated having to stab at the gas pedal to get it to shift, only to be rewarded with a double downshift to 3rd, skippping the 4th gear I wanted. At some point in time, my seriously deficient brain had an aha moment and realized that the towhaul was useful for uphill driving. Yes, I know, you don’t have to say it. 😜 Engaged on the ascent, the towhaul changed the shift points almost perfectly, eliminating both the stabbing foot and the epithets, much to Loni’s aural relief. So, when properly used, the 5-speed is a pretty good unit. All I would wish for is the ability to lock it in 4th for long descents, but 3rd is the highest available. Do the 6-speeds have a “4” place on the shifter? — Jon
Re: Sweet spot for a used LD Reply #9 – March 02, 2018, 04:39:45 pm Jon and others who have the 5-speed 'tow haul' transmission, this information may be helpful:http://www.intermotive.net/Tech%20Tip/Tech%20Tip%20-%20August%2006.pdf
Re: Sweet spot for a used LD Reply #10 – March 02, 2018, 05:02:24 pm Slightly off-topic but am really liking the CVT transmission that Subaru uses in (most of) their vehicles. It's the first one I've ever owned so it took a little getting used to not having set shift points- much smoother than a traditional tranny. That being said, the Outback does have six pre-programmed shift points that you can access by either putting it in "manual" mode, or by using the paddle shifters on the steering column. The CVT is economical to operate since, in theory, it has an "unlimited" amount of gears so constantly optimizes the power ratio with the engine. Also, it has less mechanical points of failure.I don't know if a CVT would ever work in a motorhome application but maybe we'll find out in the future!
Re: Sweet spot for a used LD Reply #11 – March 02, 2018, 06:32:06 pm Quote from: HiLola - March 02, 2018, 05:02:24 pmSlightly off-topic but am really liking the CVT transmission that Subaru uses in (most of) their vehicles. It's the first one I've ever owned so it took a little getting used to not having set shift points- much smoother than a traditional tranny. That being said, the Outback does have six pre-programmed shift points that you can access by either putting it in "manual" mode, or by using the paddle shifters on the steering column. The CVT is economical to operate since, in theory, it has an "unlimited" amount of gears so constantly optimizes the power ratio with the engine. Also, it has less mechanical points of failure.I don't know if a CVT would ever work in a motorhome application but maybe we'll find out in the future!CVTs have been used for decades but they still can't get it right.I received notice from Subaru that our 2015 Forester XT's CVT warranty had been up to 10 years or 100,000 miles.They have issues and are not able to handle high torque levels, not the ticket for a truck's transmission.When the CVT was introduced, the Forster's towing capacity went from 2400-lbs to 1500-lbs.I plan on getting rid of our Subaru before the transmission's warranty runs out.BTW, the car is nice to drive, very stable and able to handle slick roads. The brakes are excellent. The electronic nannies help make it a safe car.It does suffer from some turbo lag and a transmission that feels like it runs on rubber bands.With the turbo, accelerating from a stop feels similar to being launched from a slingshot.Keeping it in 'Sport" mode helps to reduce the lag and smooths out the power delivery .Larry
Re: Sweet spot for a used LD Reply #12 – March 02, 2018, 06:44:53 pm "They have issues and are not able to handle high torque levels, not the ticket for a truck's transmission."---Larry, can you please change out the transmission in my 2003 to a 6-speed floor shift manual with super low end torque and a wide, but smooth, power band? After all these years, I still punch my left foot into the floor while reaching for the floor shift when I hear/'feel' particular RPM levels!
Re: Sweet spot for a used LD Reply #13 – March 02, 2018, 06:47:47 pm Quote from: Larry W - March 02, 2018, 06:32:06 pmCVTs have been used for decade but they still can't get it right." In 1959, DAF started selling the world's first car with a continuously variable transmission, the small four seater DAF 600. This was the first of a series of models to be released in subsequent years, including the DAF 33, DAF 44, DAF 55 and DAF 66, all using the innovative Variomatic transmission system."Steve 1 Likes
Re: Sweet spot for a used LD Reply #14 – March 02, 2018, 07:19:29 pm I think the sweet spot is three to five years from the current model year. The RV has hit had the drive off the lot depreciation, been owned long enough to find faults but not owned long enough to be truly abused by neglect. 3 Likes
Re: Sweet spot for a used LD Reply #15 – March 02, 2018, 08:58:39 pm Quote from: Steve - March 02, 2018, 06:47:47 pm" In 1959, DAF started selling the world's first car with a continuously variable transmission, the small four seater DAF 600. This was the first of a series of models to be released in subsequent years, including the DAF 33, DAF 44, DAF 55 and DAF 66, all using the innovative Variomatic transmission system."Steve, I had never heard of a DAF so had to look it up. Cute little car!DAF 600 - Wikipedia
Re: Sweet spot for a used LD Reply #16 – March 02, 2018, 09:17:49 pm Quote from: Larry W - March 02, 2018, 06:32:06 pmCVTs have been used for decades but they still can't get it right.I received notice from Subaru that our 2015 Forester XT's CVT warranty had been up to 10 years or 100,000 miles.They have issues and are not able to handle high torque levels, not the ticket for a truck's transmission.When the CVT was introduced, the Forster's towing capacity went from 2400-lbs to 1500-lbs.I plan on getting rid of our Subaru before the transmission's warranty runs out.BTW, the car is nice to drive, very stable and able to handle slick roads. The brakes are excellent. The electronic nannies help make it a safe car.It does suffer from some turbo lag and a transmission that feels like it runs on rubber bands.With the turbo, accelerating from a stop feels similar to being launched from a slingshot.Keeping it in 'Sport" mode helps to reduce the lag and smooths out the power delivery .LarryI've heard some of the earlier CVT's had reliability issues but have since been resolved. I'm sure you have already checked out the Subaru Forums:SubaruForester.org
Re: Sweet spot for a used LD Reply #17 – March 02, 2018, 10:39:27 pm Quote from: Jon & Loni - March 02, 2018, 03:26:35 pmI have heard pro and con about the 5-speed (those who have 2005-2016 Fords may chime in), and mostly 'pro' for the 6-speed, but fewer reports because it's a new transmission.Now that I’ve learned to use it properly, I’m reasonably happy with the 5-speed in my ‘06 TK. For years I had only used the tow-haul feature for trying to maintain a steady speed when descending hills. And, for those same years, I’d curse the darn thing when it suddenly would downshift from drive to 3rd to the accompanying furious roar from the engine, causing me to disengage it. Eventually, I seldom bothered trying to use it. At the same time, for low those many years, when climbing hills I cursed the failure of the tranny to downshift at what I thought was the appropriate time to avoid lugging. I hated having to stab at the gas pedal to get it to shift, only to be rewarded with a double downshift to 3rd, skippping the 4th gear I wanted. At some point in time, my seriously deficient brain had an aha moment and realized that the towhaul was useful for uphill driving. Yes, I know, you don’t have to say it. 😜 Engaged on the ascent, the towhaul changed the shift points almost perfectly, eliminating both the stabbing foot and the epithets, much to Loni’s aural relief. So, when properly used, the 5-speed is a pretty good unit. All I would wish for is the ability to lock it in 4th for long descents, but 3rd is the highest available. Do the 6-speeds have a “4” place on the shifter? — JonYes, my 2016 MB has a "4" place on the shifter - 1,2,4 and D. 4th will hold the rig back on most hills. The six speed is a great transmission for hills.
Re: Sweet spot for a used LD Reply #18 – March 02, 2018, 10:46:21 pm We own a 15 Forester with a CVT and the electronic driving nannies. That is my wife’s car. Our 16 Forester has the more traditional three peddles on the drivers floor. The shifter indicates six forward speeds but the actual gear ratios are almost like five forward gears. The car tows well and is surprisingly flat in the twisties given the cars size, height and weight. I do wish reverse and first were gears were lower and the ratios were not so close. I like my wife’s Subie with the CVT and the electronic driving nannies are useful for the traffic we have here. I don’t love them but must confess they do the job well and that I may be a dinosaur longing for another time. To bad the CVT can’t be towed. Finally, I noticed I strayed off topic. I believe it will be a while before we see a CVT in a truck. That would be a lot of stress on the belt that runs between the two cones.
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