Keep an eye on this... a tale of a leaking water heater.

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Keep an eye on this... a tale of a leaking water heater.

August 28, 2017, 05:19:51 pm

Five days ago, I noticed a small wet spot on the ground under the lower right rear storage compartment on my '08 Midbath. I opened the compartment and found water in the compartment troughs. My first thought was leaking around the cabinet door, but... it hadn't rained. Feeling around inside, the upper front surface felt wet. Above that point is a window - and the water heater. I opened the door on the water heater and below the valves, drain plug, etc., I found... dust. No trace of a leak.

I pulled the lower drawer in the wardrobe to check the fittings on the back of the heater. Using a paper towel, I wiped them, then looked at the towel. Dry. With a flashlight, I found the plywood surface on which the heater rests to have some water staining.

I got on the phone with Atwood. The tanks are welded together, and Atwood said sometimes a weld can develop a pinhole leak from corrosion. The likelihood of a significant increase in the leak is fairly low. Apparently their experience is that leaks in the weld tend not to grow much over a month or so.

At 9 years old, with a 2 year warranty, I guess it has served me well. Checking on line, a new heater will cost me on the order of $350 to $400, but will take 2 1/2 to 3 weeks to get to me, unless I pay a pile more for expedited shipping. I am planning to leave here in 3 weeks. Ordering one with that time frame feels risky, but here is the only place I can get a delivery until I get to southern NM in October in 6 weeks.

What to do... I now have paper towels wedged under the edge of the heater. Once in 3 days, they have shown dampness. The wood as well as the storage compartment now seem dry. Basically, except when I am actually using water, I have the pump off and I drain pressure out of the lines. For minor water use, I have several water bottles that I fill when draining the line pressure. I use that for dish washing and flushing. The only time I have the pressure on for more than a few seconds is when I shower. So far, once in three showers is the only time I have seen any dampness show up on the paper towels. Hopefully, this will continue until I get to NM when I will get a new heater installed.

The moral of the story is that the heater tank can develop a tiny leak and, unless you are looking for it, it may go unnoticed. I have no idea how long mine was leaking before I spotted it. So, keep an eye on it, folks. Atwood said this is not uncommon.

Ken F in WY

Re: Keep an eye on this... a tale of a leaking water heater.

Reply #1 – August 28, 2017, 08:39:53 pm

If that isn't a kick in the pants! At the least, Ken has this problem under control and a plan to repair it. But still ... not a pleasant issue. I might add that if I had found water as Ken did, I might have had a minor headache and lost all sense of any humor.

Ken ... is that right rear storage area the space for the spare tire? And if so, where was the water? I don't know what is a "compartment trough." Thanks in advance.

Re: Keep an eye on this... a tale of a leaking water heater.

Reply #2 – August 29, 2017, 05:11:04 pm

Ed, the spare is in the upper right rear compartment. This was in the lower right rear compartment. The compartment is a pre-formed plastic structure, screwed to the underside of the floor. Its bottom is sort of corrugated to stiffen it. The corrugations form peaks and troughs. The troughs had water in them.

Just so folks know - it seems that the water heater is removed from INSIDE. You need to drain, remove the cover, remove screws, and remove the forward part of the right couch. This allows good (well, better...) access to the back of the water heater. Disconnect hoses and wires and propane (gas off first). Remove the caulk under the heater flanges, bend the flanges up, and slide the heater inward until it clears the mounting surface. Then slide it to the rear and lift it up.

I sure hope it is that simple...

Once I reach that point, I will check for any signs of rot. If I find any, repairs come next. I am thinking about making a drip pan around the heater. Using fiberglass cloth and resin, I would form the pan, and cover it with polypropylene sheeting so the surface is not abrasive. Drill a drip hole, install a hose, caulking the hole, trim it flush, and nevermore have to worry about a leak damaging wood. I will have to think some more about that one. It would need sides, and if I don't have the clearance under the structure to slide a heater in and out over sides, that would be out.

Anyway, once I am sure I do not have wood rot, the new heater goes in, in a reverse of the above removal process. Fill, check for leaks, and fire up the new one.

Ken F in WY

Re: Keep an eye on this... a tale of a leaking water heater.

Reply #3 – August 29, 2017, 08:46:57 pm

Ken, would it not be simpler to order a new LD? I mean you should live long enough to wear out the second one.

Re: Keep an eye on this... a tale of a leaking water heater.

Reply #4 – October 09, 2017, 05:18:35 pm

The replacement is done. The instructions for installing a new heater say it is installed from the inside, pushed out through the opening, then the flanges are bent down, backed by mastic tape, slid back into place, and brackets and screws added. I assumed it would be removed in reverse order.

So, I began by removing the door to re-use it. To do so, I had to remove caulk that was covering the hinge pins. Each pin is held in place by a screw. I removed the two screws, grasped the pins with pliers and slid them toward the midline of the heater, removing them and the door. Next, i removed the screws on the 4 brackets, on the flanges, and the one holding the spring in place. I then worked a putty knife under the flanges, bending them up. When they were at right angles to the side of the rig, I began cleanup, scraping off what turned out to be mastic tape. With the bulk of the tape removed, I realized that there was no caulk between the heater and the rough opening on the rig, making removal much easier. I did final cleanup of the mastic with mineral spirits, which seemed to do better than acetone, which evaporated too quickly to work. That finished the outside prep.

I removed the two lower drawers beneath the wardrobe, then I removed the slider and the forward deck on the passenger side couch. The slider is removed by taking out the five screws from the 1” wide piece of wood. The forward deck is removed by taking out the 10-12 screws on the deck. Lift it up and voila! You are looking at the back of the water heater.

(At this point in the narrative, I was waiting for my service guy to arrive, and I was looking at the space behind the heater and thinking there is no way it will slide to the inside and clear the space to be removed. Others have told me they had a bear of a time sliding their unit out to the outside. It will be interesting to see how the service guy does it.

Why am I not doing the replacement myself? First, I don’t have the tools to check the propane flow adjustment. Second, if I have a problem or do anything wrong, I am stuck while I wait for a resolution, most likely in the form of another heater. If I installed the heater wrong, the cost of the second replacement would fall on me. So, I decided to have the replacement done when my appliance service guy does the annual service for the rest of my appliances.)

The heater has a propane connector in the front, two water connectors at the back, and wire connectors at the top. I drained the tank, then put a towel under the water connectors and disconnected the feed lines. The propane was shut off at the tank and the propane connection opened. The wires were disconnected, leaving the tank free to be removed.

As expected, the tech removed the tank to the outside, and installed the new one from the outside. Also as expected, it took quite a bit of wiggling for them to get the old one out and the new one in.

Anyway, my new water heater is in.

Ken F in NM

Re: Keep an eye on this... a tale of a leaking water heater.

Reply #5 – October 09, 2017, 06:23:20 pm

Ken

Glad to see it worked out OK.
Never seen one removed from the inside, with most LD floorplans, it would be near impossible.

Larry

Re: Keep an eye on this... a tale of a leaking water heater.

Reply #6 – October 10, 2017, 10:56:11 am

Ken--

What did you decide about your "drip pan" & drain? Is this something you did after the tech completed the installation?

Don't know if it's something I'd be able to tackle, but it certainly makes sense...I've seen the same idea under washing machines when laundry rooms are on the second floor where a leak could be more problematic than in a basement like mine.

Lynne

Re: Keep an eye on this... a tale of a leaking water heater.

Reply #7 – October 10, 2017, 01:45:11 pm

Lynne, time was a big factor in that. With the water heater out, my propane line was open so I had no stove or oven or hot water until it was back together. Had I found any rot, I would have been forced to deal with it. I found no rot, so I felt no urgency about it. Had there been room to make such, maybe I would have done a drip pan. As it was, they sanded perhaps 1/16" of styrofoam off the top to be able to slide the new unit in. Any kind of drip pan constructed on the existing surface would have prevented the unit from sliding in from the outside. With no sign of rot, I was not going to go without propane use for days while I cut into the floor under the heater area to fit a drip pan and drain in.

Ken F in NM

Re: Keep an eye on this... a tale of a leaking water heater.

Reply #8 – October 10, 2017, 03:05:42 pm

Ken

I remember back 13 years or so when I was doing my homework on owning a Lazy Daze. One of the items under consideration was the water heater. Specifically I had done the research that told me that there were two versions, gas alone and gas/electric, both of which were the same physical dimensions. All that would have been required for the dual fuel model was a wire run and a circuit breaker. I broached the subject with Steve Newton and was astounded by his flat "NO" for an answer.

I'd had a dual fuel model on my previous HR 30'TT and loved the convenience. Plug in to shore power and the water heater defaults to AC. What could be simpler? But alas, that was not the LD way of doing things. Still, I learned to live with it.

Re: Keep an eye on this... a tale of a leaking water heater.

Reply #9 – October 10, 2017, 05:39:20 pm

So glad that is all done, Ken! Thanks for updating us on the process, especially the from-the-outside installation. As you know, when Andy and I replaced my water heater (thanks again, Andy!), we did it that way, but only because I probably didn't read the manual thoroughly, LOL! And I *love* to read manuals, hehe.

Re: Keep an eye on this... a tale of a leaking water heater.

Reply #10 – October 11, 2017, 12:55:11 am

Thanks, Ken for that response...cutting into the floor would be a much bigger project than I'd like to handle.

Steve--

When KS RV (in Chanute) replaced mine a couple of years ago they had a dual fuel unit, but retro-fitting the wiring for AC operation was going to cost more than I thought it was worth, since I boondock most of the time--might be a different story if I had the electrical knowledge to do it myself as so many of the Wizards on this site do. I am thankful for what I've got, but am continuously puzzled by how many "NO" responses people report receiving when buying a new rig.

Re: Keep an eye on this... a tale of a leaking water heater.

Reply #11 – October 11, 2017, 09:01:29 am

"....am continuously puzzled by how many "NO" responses people report receiving when buying a new rig."
---
Aside from what I suspect is sometimes pure 'contrariness' (or that day's or week's number of 'production annoyances'), LD's reasons for denying special requests are in line with their philosophy, i.e., LD is a factory direct unit, not a custom order.

There surely are inconsistencies in what Steve will and will not do to modify or add or leave out; sometimes, depending on what the customer wants, 'small' changes can be accommodated, but if the request will require additional production time or a special skill or materials or design changes or product substitutions, the answer will very likely be 'No!'.

I can't speak to the types of 'mods' that people ask for; I'm sure that some are simple and could be done with little or no additional shop time, but I'm also pretty sure that some requested 'custom' alterations would require a lot more time and labor and materials and 'line stop' to accomplish. Some savvy customers do understand what they're asking for when requesting a design or production change, but (IMO) some may not have a clue as to what would be involved in granting their wishes!

I'm keeping my old LD; I'm pretty sure that it will go longer than I will, and if I were ordering an new LD, my 'mods' build requests would likely lead to incredulous laughter! All one can do is ask - and be prepared to accept the answers.

Re: Keep an eye on this... a tale of a leaking water heater.

Reply #12 – October 11, 2017, 11:08:53 am

"I'm keeping my old LD; I'm pretty sure that it will go longer than I will,
and if I were ordering an new LD, my 'mods' build requests would likely
lead to incredulous laughter!"

Curious minds want to know what we are missing . . . Joan, could you favor us with your Wish List?

   Virtual hugs,

   Judie <-- Sierra Vista, Arizona
   Adventures of Dorrie Anne | Photographing the West

   Today: Ladies and Gentleman
   ******************************

Re: Keep an eye on this... a tale of a leaking water heater.

Reply #13 – October 11, 2017, 11:34:30 am

I'm headed to the factory this weekend to have all of my roof vents resealed! Hope the rains hold off till then.

When I ordered my coach back in '04 LD accommodated me by deleting the coffee maker, the ice maker and the box awning, giving credit in return. Water heater not so much! But when I asked Steve to reinforce the left side wall of the entry way for a SS Handicap Grab Handle he willingly conceded and asked me where it would be mounted. The very next year ('05) every LD coming off the production line had a similar grab handle.

Re: Keep an eye on this... a tale of a leaking water heater.

Reply #14 – October 11, 2017, 11:34:46 am

Quote from: JCT - October 11, 2017, 09:01:29 am

I'm keeping my old LD; I'm pretty sure that it will go longer than I will, and if I were ordering an new LD, my 'mods' build requests would likely lead to incredulous laughter! All one can do is ask - and be prepared to accept the answers.

Joan

What additional (and possible) mods would you like? I'll try not to laugh.
I thought most of what you want had already been done to your T/K.

Larry

Re: Keep an eye on this... a tale of a leaking water heater.

Reply #15 – October 11, 2017, 12:49:20 pm

"I thought most of what you want had already been done to your T/K."
---
On my 2003, yes, most of what I want/need/can change has been done. (I do have two items that I'm considering, and you know on whose 'list' those are!

) But, my focus for my LD at this point is keeping it mechanically sound, safe, and roadworthy! (And getting its smog cert and new tires.)

On a new LD, my short list (the stuff of unicorns!) of build items that the factory would have to do would be: (thick) laminated glass windows, not the dual-pane that are subject to fogging, a marine propane stove (not the standard issue Atwood), stainless steel sinks (and a faucet of my choice), a more efficient (and correctly installed) propane/electric refrigerator, the escape hatch vent in the overcab, lighter-colored wall coverings, wiring in size and lengths to accommodate future needs, and even more efficient insulation in the walls, floor, and ceiling. The foam block is an improvement over the puny little wads of fiberglass in my 2003, but I believe that there must be a better insulator out there; I'd need to research that.

I'd want a solar system, of course, but I'd want it designed, matched, and my chosen components installed by my choice of installers; lithium batteries might be a choice. (LD would leave the 'holes'; I'd fill these with state of the art components.)

Smaller upgrades and changes to the chassis, box, and systems (many of which I have now) and cosmetic issues (like the blinds) that didn't involve 'body building' issues could be done in steps.

Pie in the sky, but fun to do the research on new technologies and materials. (One of the reasons, in addition to the entertainment value from listening to the spiels of the manufacturers and dealers, that I wanted to go to the show in Pomona was to check out new 'stuff'.) I appreciate what I have; a lot of the mods and upgrades that I wanted have been done, my rig has been consistently maintained, and at 105k, it should go for a long time yet.

Stop laughing, Larry!

Re: Keep an eye on this... a tale of a leaking water heater.

Reply #16 – October 11, 2017, 02:13:44 pm

And after asking the nice folks at Lazy Daze about a few minor upgrades and options that I would like on a new rig and hearing their response (" we don't do that") to each request, I will wish you the best of luck on that short list.

HD

Re: Keep an eye on this... a tale of a leaking water heater.

Reply #17 – October 11, 2017, 02:15:06 pm

Good list Joan, these are many of my preferences too. Don’t forget the Powerstroke engine!

Polyiso foam is the most efficacious if installed correctly. Spray-foamed into place, and around the blocks to provide a continuous layer of insulation. When done this way it will never squeak or come loose, and would be compatible with the Mothership’s methods of building something never meant to be disassembled! If engineered, perhaps some of the wood framing could be reduced due to the improvements in structural strength.

But all this is pie in the sky crazy talk.
Fun.

Re: Keep an eye on this... a tale of a leaking water heater.

Reply #18 – October 11, 2017, 02:16:35 pm

"I will wish you the best of luck on that short list."
----
I don't believe in unicorns, either, Harold!

Re: Keep an eye on this... a tale of a leaking water heater.

Reply #19 – October 11, 2017, 04:29:35 pm

'Polyiso' sheet material was what Larry used to insulate his refrigerator re-installation.

http://www.jm.com/content/dam/jm/global/en/building-insulation/Files/BI%20Data%20Sheets/Resi%20and%20Commercial/BID-0151_AP_FoilFaced_DS.pdf

Re: Keep an eye on this... a tale of a leaking water heater.

Reply #20 – October 11, 2017, 05:03:37 pm

Two areas of response:

First, Lynne was concerned about getting wiring in for a gas/electric water heater... I assume that 120v AC is sufficient. It is not terribly hard (in my Midbath) to get a 2/C+G electric wire from the power panel to the water heater. The steps would be-
1) Replace one of the single breakers in the power panel with a dual breaker, one side at the original amp rating, and connected to the original wire, and the other side for the water heater, to be connected later to a new wire, with both wire and breaker sized properly for the water heater.
2) Remove the lower panel at the rear wall of the bathroom, giving access to the stuff at the bottom of the shower (4 screws).
3) Remove the angled trim piece behind the toilet (2 screws).
4) Remove the lower shelf forward of the toilet (2 screws I think).
5) Remove the lower wardrobe drawer.
6) For easiest access, remove the forward deck on the passenger side couch (5 screws for the slider and 10-12 screws for the deck).
7) Run the new wire from the heater to the power panel. Starting at the heater, thread the wire under the floor next to the water lines feeding the heater. It will emerge below the shower. Now, following the water lines, feed the wire forward. It will emerge behind the toilet. In the bathroom, keep moving the wire forward. It will emerge in the lower compartment under the sink where the water pump is located. Either find an existing opening in the shelf below the sink that you can use, or make a new hole to bring the wire up to the area behind the power panel.

Bring the wire into the power panel, add strain relief, and make the required connections. If you do not have the electrical savvy to do this for certain, have an electrician do it.

If you want to change from a gas water heater to a gas/electric water heater, the above is how to run the wiring on a Midbath. Other models will vary in details, but the task should not be overly difficult.

On Joan's list, she spoke about a better grade of insulation. Here is what I have read. One inch of properly installed fiberglass is about equal to one inch of open cell foam or 1/2" of closed cell foam. That being said, a good foam insulation job depends in large part on a tight fit, and that is not easy using foam blocks. Fiberglass can be compressed slightly with almost no effect on its insulation value. Foam needs to be shaved enough that it can be squeezed into place. Shave 1/8" too much, and it becomes a loose fit.

Using a spray expanding foam, a superb fit can easily be obtained, plus the foam can be a closed cell foam, doubling the R value. The downside is that if you ever have to get between the walls for an reason - rot repair, collision damage, or anything similar, the sprayed in place expanding foam will be a nightmare for you. Foam blocks do a pretty good job, plus allow access for future repairs.

Were I designing new, I think I would used closed cell foam blocks, with the edges sealed using an expanding foam such as Great Stuff. Rather than fill the entire space, I would face the foam with a new aluminized mylar 1/4" honeycomb material (sorry - I don't remember the name) that I read about last winter. Apparently its cells are argon filled and it is tremendously efficient at blocking radiant transfer of heat. With a 1/4" space in front of it, it reportedly has as much insulation value as conventional wall insulation in a standard stick house - about 3.5" of fiberglass. So, in a 2" space, a 1.5" closed cell foam block faced with that material and with edges sealed with Great Stuff would be about twice as efficient as the insulation in a conventional home.

But then, I am not very likely to build my own RV... http://www.lazydazeowners.com/smileys/default/grin.gif

Ken F in NM

Re: Keep an eye on this... a tale of a leaking water heater.

Reply #21 – October 11, 2017, 08:14:30 pm

I'm thinking about adding an electric element to the water heater in my '04 MB. But I'll probably run a separate wire that can be plugged into the pedestal. I'd rather not add to the electric load on the 30amp system.

Re: Keep an eye on this... a tale of a leaking water heater.

Reply #22 – October 12, 2017, 05:42:35 pm

I can see the merits of plugging into the pedestal directly. Me being who I am, I immediately go to "What is there about this idea that could go sour?" Here are the thoughts that generated.

First, some pedestals have only 15 amps for the secondary service. If your heater needs 20 amps, you're stuck.

Second, I wonder about the mechanics of a second cable connection to the pedestal. Is it hard wired to the heater? If so, where and how is the wire stored? If not hard wired, you need someplace to plug it to the heater and someplace to route it through the coach, then out a window to the pedestal.

Ken F in NM

Re: Keep an eye on this... a tale of a leaking water heater.

Reply #23 – October 12, 2017, 08:55:51 pm

"I'm thinking about adding an electric element to the water heater..."

You might want to investigate what that will do to your warranty!

Re: Keep an eye on this... a tale of a leaking water heater.

Reply #24 – October 12, 2017, 10:49:17 pm

I doubt there's a warranty on a water heater in a 13 year old rig.

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