Where to put kids car seats? June 20, 2017, 07:20:55 pm Where is the best place to put car seats? We may be taking our 3 and 9 year old granddaughters on a couple day trip in our MB.I noticed the dinette has a set of seat belts on each bench and there are also belts on the rear couches. But the rear lounge has a sticker that those are not to be used while driving. So why the belts?It would be nice to put them in the rear watching a movie while we drive. But only if it is safe.Thanks!
Re: Where to put kids car seats? Reply #1 – June 20, 2017, 07:46:36 pm Quote from: folivier - June 20, 2017, 07:20:55 pmWhere is the best place to put car seats? We may be taking our 3 and 9 year old granddaughters on a couple day trip in our MB.I noticed the dinette has a set of seat belts on each bench and there are also belts on the rear couches. But the rear lounge has a sticker that those are not to be used while driving. So why the belts?It would be nice to put them in the rear watching a movie while we drive. But only if it is safe.Thanks!The children, like all passengers, should be facing forward or aft, depending on age/weight. The car seats are not meant to accept sideways force in the event of an emergency. If they can be properly constrained, put them in the dinette. -- Jon 1 Likes
Re: Where to put kids car seats? Reply #2 – June 21, 2017, 11:06:21 am Well, I guess this shoots down my idea about putting children out in the trailer. My wise grandfather used to insist that children be seen and not heard. I like the idea but never had much success implementing it with my kids, especially the girls.HD 2 Likes
Re: Where to put kids car seats? Reply #3 – June 21, 2017, 12:29:30 pm The 9 year old wouldn't be in a car seat anymore, perhaps they use a booster seat but those are for use with lap/shoulder belts that the dinette won't have. So the 9 year old would just use the dinette lap belt. The 3 year old's car seat would need to be lap belt only compatible, our current one is not for example but her baby seat was. Many seats now are meant to be used with the latch system which the LD doesn't have, car seats in moho are a challenge.That being said our 4 year old is riding lap belt only, we don't have a dinette and car seats aren't meant for riding sideways. Sometimes we drive separate and have her in the car instead but for some trips she is in the moho, it's a risk we take. The statistics show very few fatal moho accidents (rate per mile is extremely low) and those are almost always the front seat passengers.
Re: Where to put kids car seats? Reply #4 – June 21, 2017, 12:41:05 pm Quote from: 3Bostons - June 21, 2017, 12:29:30 pmMany seats now are meant to be used with the latch system which the LD doesn't have, car seats in moho are a challenge.i found a place to make me some of these in a 17" strap, and attached it to the factory mount and now i have a latch compatible strap in my dinette.... i take out the seat cushion and leave the back cushion in place.i'd guess even the 12" might work if you didn't mind attaching them from inside the below seat storage, and wrestling with the strap tensioning... i think they have those you can order at orielley for like $12.
Re: Where to put kids car seats? Reply #5 – June 21, 2017, 04:25:07 pm That worries me. A kid riding in one of the dinette seats, wearing a lap belt, is facing the table edge, with no upper body restraint. They would be at risk of significant facial, throat and chest impact with the table edge. A child seat, strapped into one of those dinette seats, might be ok if the child seat will prevent contact with he table, AND IF THE BENCH SEAT IS STRONG ENOUGH TO CONSTRAIN THE CHILD SEAT FROM MOVEMENT, something that I question. Plus, in a collision, I question the ability of those bench seats to restrain any passenger, even though the belts attach to the floor. Personally, it is my opinion that the MB has safe traveling seats for two people - the two front seats. Ken F in WY
Re: Where to put kids car seats? Reply #6 – June 21, 2017, 05:11:11 pm "Personally, it is my opinion that the MB has safe traveling seats for two people - the two front seats. "Almost everyone who has an RV also owns an everyday vehicle that would safely accommodate child seats. It would seem reasonable to me to have a second driver (assuming availability) drive said vehicle containing safely-restrained children. This would provide the benefits of a "toad" during the trip and at your destination, while removing all of the costs and problems inherent with towing, including backing up the motorhome. Yes, you will spend a bit more on fuel, but unless you are going on an extended drive-til-you-drop marathon, this might be a good solution to keep your children safe. Virtual hugs, Judie < -- driving separately for 26 years 2 Likes
Re: Where to put kids car seats? Reply #7 – June 21, 2017, 06:22:47 pm Quote from: Kenneth Fears - June 21, 2017, 04:25:07 pmThat worries me. A kid riding in one of the dinette seats, wearing a lap belt, is facing the table edge, with no upper body restraint. They would be at risk of significant facial, throat and chest impact with the table edge. A child seat, strapped into one of those dinette seats, might be ok if the child seat will prevent contact with he table, AND IF THE BENCH SEAT IS STRONG ENOUGH TO CONSTRAIN THE CHILD SEAT FROM MOVEMENT, something that I question. Plus, in a collision, I question the ability of those bench seats to restrain any passenger, even though the belts attach to the floor. Personally, it is my opinion that the MB has safe traveling seats for two people - the two front seats. Ken F in WYBy that definition pretty much all motorhomes and all Lazy Daze only have traveling seats for 2 since the other options are dinette or couch and none inclue shoulder lap belts. The front passengers in the moho are the most likely to be killed in a crash, probably because class a and van based chassis provide little room at the front of the vehicle to absorb impact. I believe the biggest danger to rear passengers is flying stuff during a crash, so how you secure your stuff is important.Some say that the only way to rv with kids is travel trailer or drive separate vehicles and carry the kids in a car. The problem is, the injury and death rate in a passenger vehicle is higher than a motorhome, that is death rate per mile driven. So yes they're properly strapped in a car seat but they are also more likely to die... 2 Likes
Re: Where to put kids car seats? Reply #8 – June 21, 2017, 06:56:35 pm Quote from: 3Bostons - June 21, 2017, 06:22:47 pmThe front passengers in the moho are the most likely to be killed in a crash, probably because class a and van based chassis provide little room at the front of the vehicle to absorb impact. Some say that the only way to rv with kids is travel trailer or drive separate vehicles and carry the kids in a car. The problem is, the injury and death rate in a passenger vehicle is higher than a motorhome, that is death rate per mile driven. So yes they're properly strapped in a car seat but they are also more likely to die...If I have to crash into something, I would rather do it in the motorhome than my wife's super safe Suburu, even with all of its air bags.The E450 does have a crush area, in the front of the frame, and weight rules.Not sure if they still say it but the Motherships used to brag that no one had ever died, crashing in a Lazy Daze.I know several who have died in LDs, but that's another story. While the death or injury rate may be lower in motorhomes, I don't think the statistics have a sub-category for passengers riding in the coach. The majority of RV miles only have the front two seats occupied.If they did track the statistic, my guess is the rear passenger injury and death rate would be much higher because they are riding in non-engineered seats. Side facing seats and seats without headrests are inherently dangerous.Modern cars have shoulder belts in every seat, a feature I have never seen in any MH's rear seats.Lazy Daze does zero safety design engineering to the seating in the coach. If seat belts are present, they are merely bolted through the plywood floor with 1/2" bolts and big fender washers. They will probably hold....probably.Larry 2 Likes
Re: Where to put kids car seats? Reply #9 – June 21, 2017, 07:34:38 pm Maybe merge this thread with the 'where to put the dog crates' thread? My generation survived without being strapped into a contraption worthy of a rocket to outer space, but since it's now the law to accustom the little ones to being tied up for their own good, seems the best place for them is in a properly equipped car, driving behind the actual house. fu2015TK
Re: Where to put kids car seats? Reply #10 – June 21, 2017, 09:33:03 pm If you look online someone did crunch some numbers based on the early 2000s crash data which showed very few fatalities in motorhomes in general and most were front occupants. In the 7 year period this person used there were a total of 26 fatalities of rear occupants and all but 2 of those were unbelted, so less than 4 per year. And no fatalities for kids in car seats. I found the 2010 national crash report and Table 75 has the number killed in the fatal crash versus the number of passengers in the vehicle, 20 killed that year versus 97 occupants (for all classes of moho). Obviously some occupants were in the back to have those numbers. The raw data probably has more info on where each was sitting, belt usage etc but they don't analyze such small numbers and I don't have time to do it. I did all of this soul searching when trying to decide what to do in our case, there is no perfect solution because traveling in a car is just as dangerous as traveling in the motorhome. If you want less risk then stay home, it's a direct function of miles driven.Otherwise buckle up, take care of your rig and its mechanicals, drive slowly and defensively, leave yourself lots of time and keep your eyes on the road. Oh and most importantly have fun getting those kids out in to nature. 5 Likes
Re: Where to put kids car seats? Reply #11 – June 22, 2017, 02:40:24 pm Quote from: Kenneth Fears - June 21, 2017, 04:25:07 pmThat worries me. A kid riding in one of the dinette seats, wearing a lap belt, is facing the table edge, with no upper body restraint. They would be at risk of significant facial, throat and chest impact with the table edge. A child seat, strapped into one of those dinette seats, might be ok if the child seat will prevent contact with he table,Ken F in WYif your are using car seats, you just lower the table into bed position... their legs aren't that long. mine like the foot rest it makes 3 Likes
Re: Where to put kids car seats? Reply #12 – June 23, 2017, 09:55:22 am I find it interesting that there is so much effort to protect children riding in most vehicles, yet in school buses and RV's it's every kid for themselves! 1 Likes
Re: Where to put kids car seats? Reply #13 – June 24, 2017, 09:38:19 am Quote from: HiLola - June 23, 2017, 09:55:22 amI find it interesting that there is so much effort to protect children riding in most vehicles, yet in school buses and RV's it's every kid for themselves!I'm sure this is going to surprise you -- money. There are no or very few regulations at both the Federal and State level that apply to medium and heavy duty trucks. It is almost a buyer beware area. This is were most folks get in trouble because they beleive the same rules that apply to passenger cars and trucks apply to medium and heavy duty trucks. If I may quote from this link "Only six states — California, Florida, Louisiana, New Jersey, New York and Texas — have laws requiring seat belts on school buses. In Louisiana and Texas, however, the requirements are contingent upon funds being appropriated by the state, and that hasn’t happened."Should states require seatbelts on school buses? | PBS NewsHour 2 Likes
Re: Where to put kids car seats? Reply #14 – June 24, 2017, 10:57:51 am Our school district changed from yellow school busses to cab vans to carry our special needs students to school and back home. For one it is cheaper for the district and the children are all in seatbelt and booster seats if needed. 3 Likes
Re: Where to put kids car seats? Reply #15 – July 04, 2017, 08:30:18 pm This question has jolted me and I can't get it out of my mind, so I'll attempt a reply. I can't tell anyone else what risks are acceptable when we are speaking about children, but I will tell you what I have done. When we purchased our twin king I had two extra seat belts installed, one on each side. I don't believe the sign saying not to ride back there applies to the positions that have belts, but to the other unbelted areas. We have taken our grandchildren with us since they were babies and I plan to continue that. After extensive research we bought the best car seats on the market at each stage. We belted the seats in - yes facing sideways and without a tether, but tightly belted into the seats and the seats tightly belted as well. We padded the sides with extra pillows and wedges, and raised the table into it's upright position. We wanted as little side to side movement as possible. Early on, if I had an extra adult that person rode with the kids in back. I no longer have the option of an extra adult, so putting the kids into the car and having that driven along with us is not feasible. If it comes to that I can't take them anywhere. But I honestly think they are safer in the motorhome than in my little tow car, despite it's extra airbags. It's still a small car and would sustain more damage in a crash I'm sure.We travel to state and national parks within an hour of our home. They get to be in natural surroundings, with large sites. I think this is a positive experience for them. I know I drive differently when they are with me, much more carefully. Everything we do has a risk/benefit ratio and we choose what we are comfortable with. I hate to think I'm taking a terrible risk each time I take them somewhere, so I hesitated to respond. But I decided it was worth it for anyone on the fence. Think it through, do the best you can to keep them safe and decide what you can handle. I find it hard to believe a motorhome like ours can only carry two people safely. 11 Likes
Re: Where to put kids car seats? Reply #16 – July 05, 2017, 07:54:20 pm Seesaw, I will weigh in as best I can. First, the accident and injury rate for motorhomes is lower than for cars. This appears to be related strongly to the average age of a motorhome driver, and the way those drivers manage their vehicles. There is not much inclination to drive an RV as if it is a sports car. Both speeds and turns tend to be more moderate. Second, in an accident with a passenger car, the greater weight of the motorhome means more change in velocity is imparted to the passenger car than to the motorhome as a result of the impact. These factors explain why the injury rate and fatality rate is lower for motorhomes than for passenger cars.Now, as to risk to occupants... One of the reasons I chose a Class C rather than a Class A was to obtain the crash protection features that are built into the cab and chassis of our LD's by Ford. Quite simply, the cab area is much safer in terms of crash protection than that of a Class A.As to passenger locations, I strongly urge you to choose a forward or backward position for car seats rather than a sideways position. The forces imparted to occupants are much better tolerated front to back than side to side. You will note that I "liked" a post above by McNugget, who posted that he uses car seats buckled to the bench seats, with the table lowered. In that configuration, a child in that car seat is fairly well protected. The car seat is designed to properly constrain and protect a child in case of impact, but is less effective in preventing head and neck movement to the side in the event of a lateral impact, and the cervical spine is less able to tolerate lateral forces than longitudinal ones. Also, facing forward or backward, if the bench seat fails during the impact, the seat belt will continue to provide some constraint, even as the bench seat collapses, plus the table is down, away from any potential for an edge impact. By contrast, a car seat belted sideways into a couch position can rotate to the side (front or back of RV) if the couch collapses.The forces involved in a motor vehicle collision are huge. Remember the pre-seat belt days when your mom or dad, hitting the brakes hard, would put out their right arm to hold you in place? Consider a 60 pound child, in a relatively mild 10 g impact. Attempting to constrain the movement of that child would be equivalent to trying to hold a 600 pound weight at arm's length. It is NOT going to happen. Car seats are designed with a frame and padding that is intended to function to provide maximum protection longitudinally. They are intended to hold a certain weight occupant, and if you use them, you know that the seats have a weight range for acceptable use. Outside that range they are not safe. When you mount a car seat sideways to the direction of travel, all bets are off. If you add pillows to the side of the seat, you may make yourself feel better, but you have NO idea whether the added padding will help. Personally, I doubt that it will.I am NOT saying that you should not take kids or grandkids with you. I am trying to make people aware of the fact that there are only two locations in our rigs that comply with current crash protection standards - the two front seats. The rear seats do not comply with such standards. They are not crash-worthy. So, if there are kids back there they are at risk, just like we all were in the days before seatbelt and air bags and before car bodies were designed to absorb energy rather than transmitting it to occupants. We survived, so the tendency is to think "Oh, it will be ok."I say it is a risk. My opinion is based on 40 years as a traffic engineer, having done thousands of accident analyses and investigations, hundreds of accident reconstructions, and having worked with motor vehicle accident, injury and fatality statistics for all those years. Add three years on a rescue squad, and you have the basis for my opinions here. Is it an acceptable risk? I can't answer that for you. All I am trying to do is to make you aware that a huge amount of study and design and crashworthiness testing has gone into the cab area of the LD's we drive. I doubt that the Newtons ever loaded one of their RV's with crash test dummies in the rear seat positions and drove the RV into a concrete wall at 50 mph. The cab HAS been tested that way. The rear seats have not. All we can do is to try to project the dynamics of a crash to the various seating positions, and estimate what is likely to occur. A child belted into a car seat firmly strapped to a forward or backward plywood bench seat, with the table down to remove the potential for an edge impact is probably far better protected than I was as a kid, but are they well enough protected to meet today's crash protection standards? I sure don't know that answer, but I doubt it. You said, "Everything we do has a risk/benefit ratio and we choose what we are comfortable with." That is exactly right. Further, there is no guarantee that a person in one of the front seats will fare better that one in the rear of the RV. Every crash is different. Still, the odds are much better for you in one of the front seats than in a rear area. You have to play the odds, and decide how much risk is too much. Just don't kid yourself that pillows will provide protection. And under NO circumstances should you put passengers in a car being towed. In terms of safety, though, they would be safer being driven in that little car, with all the crash protection features it contains, than they would be in the back of an RV wearing a lap belt on plywood seats.Ken F in WY 5 Likes
Re: Where to put kids car seats? Reply #17 – July 05, 2017, 09:46:01 pm I never really thought taking grandkids in an RV was a problem. But the more I learn the more it concerns me. I would only do it if they face forward or backward and it was a shorter trip. Otherwise, they would be driven to camp in a separate vehicle. Better to be inconvenienced than sorry. Thanks for your input Ken F. Now if I only could find a newer IB or MB, at a realistic price, so I have that decision to make!! LOLRon Sarzynski
Re: Where to put kids car seats? Reply #18 – July 08, 2017, 02:09:21 pm Thank you Ken F for an informative, thorough analysis of the issues I and others have raised. It's sobering, and it doesn't make my current situation any easier - the 23 1/2 TK does not have a dinette, and I do not have another driver in my household. I can on occasion, and have, brought the RV to a campsite and come back for the kids, who are now 6 and 9. I may also be able to convince a parent to drive them if the parent is available. It's upsetting to think it's ok for manufacturers to put seat belts into all these lovely 'family' vehicles, when the seat belts aren't safe for passengers to use! There will still be occasions when I will be alone with the kids and need to make the best decision I can at that time (in conjunction with their parents) - riding with me, or not coming at all. It's usually only 2-3 times a year that this may happen.Do any of you engineering or creative types have any ideas that would make what I'm dealing with work better? Maybe attaching bolts through the frame of the RV, with the rear table in it's upright position, and booster seats facing front, on the floor or on a bolted platform? Just me playing with ideas and no engineering skills or knowledge! Ha! 1 Likes
Re: Where to put kids car seats? Reply #19 – July 08, 2017, 03:01:24 pm "Do any of you engineering or creative types have any ideas that would make what I'm dealing with work better? "This is an idea that is probably too radical to consider, and certainly is extreme. You mention that this occasion arises only two or three times a year, so what about having a professional driver take your motorhome to the intended spot, and then you would be free to bring the children in your passenger vehicle? This would not be inexpensive, but maybe not any more so than having major reconstruction work done to try to jury rig a solution. If time is not of essence, then you can be your own auxiliary driver by making the trip twice each way, as you mention. You don't mention (that I noticed) the distance involved. If it is under two hours each way, then you would lose only four hours on each leg. If the time in place is only a three-day weekend, for instance, this would probably not be useful. But if you are intending to be in place for a week or more, then you would lose only eight hours of your time in place while shuttling youngsters. If you consider the four hours in the car with them as part of the joy of the outing, then really, your only downtime is the four hours you would spend by yourself in the car. There will be extra fuel for the car of course, but that probably is not a huge expense.A downside to either plan is that should an emergency appear, you would need to temporarily abandon your motorhome in whatever setting it is in until you can deal with the logistics, or wait for a helper to arrive.I would be pleased to hear any solution you come up with because, although not entirely the same problem, our travel mode is to drive separately in our camper van and our Lazy Daze. Should there be an emergency, it would be impossible for me to manage both vehicles on my own. Virtual hugs, Judie
Re: Where to put kids car seats? Reply #20 – July 08, 2017, 07:13:36 pm Quote from: seesaw60 - July 08, 2017, 02:09:21 pmDo any of you engineering or creative types have any ideas that would make what I'm dealing with work better? I would not try to modify a vehicle myself to address a seat belt issue. It's just too important.I read a similar question on another board, and there was an excellent suggestion to seek the help of a vehicle mobility conversion firm/upfitter. They are licensed/certified to ensure safe modifications of a vehicle, usually for the mobility-challenged, but they are much more skilled/knowledgeable on proper seat belt installation/safety.
Re: Where to put kids car seats? Reply #21 – July 09, 2017, 01:22:49 am I'm not sure if this is what you are asking......I have been traveling with my kids, starting in 1992 in my 1st LD, & now my granddaughter in my 2nd LD. You can put a carseat in a forward-facing seat such as the dinette. I didn't use a booster seat as the purpose of those is to raise the child for proper shoulder belt placement, & there are only lapbelts.
Re: Where to put kids car seats? Reply #22 – July 09, 2017, 01:44:34 am I would place the child carrier seats in forward / rearward facing seats. These child carriers were originally designed for the lap belt and shoulder belt (if equipped) going through the designated hole/tunnel. If I put the child seat in a 1966 Chrysler which only had lap belt it still should protect the child. And the child seat is installed rear facing for infants and it works. Instructions say to use the center rear strap if the car is equipped with the needed anchor point. 1 Likes
Re: Where to put kids car seats? Reply #23 – July 09, 2017, 06:47:21 pm Michelle, the issue is not the seat belts. They are bolted to sound structure. The issue is the plywood seats. Imagine a 50 lb child, with a 10 lb car seat, strapped onto a surface made of 1/4" plywood, in a relatively mild 10 g impact. That would create 600 pounds of force in the forward direction. The seat belt will turn that forward force into a rotational force because the attachment of the car seat to the belt is at the bottom of the car seat. So, there will now be something near 600 pounds of force pushing down on the seat at the point where the front of the car seat contacts the bench cushion in the case of a forward facing seat and a front impact, or a rearward facing seat in a rear impact. My front dinette seat was cracked when a 250 lb man stood on the center, rather than the edge, of the seat in climbing into the loft. Had he been 600 pounds, the entire bench might have crumbled.The seat belts are secure and strong. Unfortunately, the surface against which they are pulling the car seat is not. When the seat surface fails, the car seat is not free to fly around the interior. The seat belt is still holding it. It is free to shift, to spin, to allow contact with broken plywood and wood framing, and so on.If you are looking to create a truly safe passenger seating situation in the back, there are options. On my mid bath, I would have to modify the table so it could be removed and stowed elsewhere. I would then have a welding shop make a frame that could be bolted to floor structure that would just touch the underside of the bench seats, so the frame rather than the seats would carry the load. The frame would have to be quite robust. Imagine that 250 lb man sitting back there with a lap belt, in a fairly severe crash, experiencing 20 g's. That lap belt and frame would have to hold 5000 lbs of force. And yes - that is not an unusual amount of force to be experienced. With a combination of lap belt, shoulder belt and air bag, people have walked away from significantly higher forces than that. It would take some careful design and would add weight to the vehicle, but it could be done. Another option might be to remove the bench seats entirely and bolt commercial van seats, with lap/shoulder belts included, to the frame, with a removable table between them. That would give safe seating for two in the back.Ken F in WY 1 Likes
Re: Where to put kids car seats? Reply #24 – July 09, 2017, 07:04:39 pm Ken F, and all the others who have shared--I so appreciate the explanations in simple layman's language. Though I don't have the option of little people to accompany me, it gives me pause to think about an argument with my dad years ago: they didn't believe in seat belts for themselves, but did abide by my requirement for the kids to belted into carseats in their cars. The seat belts on the sofa of their Pace Arrow were stuck down below, since they were never used. I insisted on seat belts for the carseats, or I would drive my minivan & meet them in St. Louis. My dad was highly offended--he seemed to feel I was implying he was being negligent about the kids' safety by not using the belts in the RV--but he dug them out & we all rode together. My kids took turns with their carseat/booster in the front passenger seat as Grandpa's Co-pilot, while Grandma, Kid 2, & I rode in the coach area (Kid 2 & me belted on the sofa; Grandma unbelted in her swivel rocker...). Thx, again for good info.Lynne
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