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Another Oil Change interval, data driven
I know this has been hashed and rehashed.  Frequent and timely oil changes can prevent costly internal engine failures.  But needlessly frequent changes cost time and money and waste the capabilities of modern lubricants.

 We've all read read lots of threads and posts but I would like to add another interesting item: a Blackstone Oil Analysis Report from my last oil change. Naturally, my disclaimer is that I have no relationship with Blackstone other than the fact that I have sent and paid for gas engine samples, diesel truck and boat engine samples, and motorcycle oil samples to them for years and I really appreciate the service they provide.

The manual for my Ford E450 Chassis on which the Lazy Daze is built recommends that the oil be changed every 7500 miles or six months.  The Lazy Daze Owners Manual recommends 3000 miles or 12 months.  There is a big difference between these recommendations so I sent a crankcase oil sample to Blackstone Laboratories for analysis after driving the Lazy Daze almost exactly 3000 miles across the southwest states.

Prior to our last trip, I changed the oil and the oil filter.  I refilled with Valvoline 5-20W (conventional mineral oil) and the recommended Motorcraft oil filter.  No oil was needed or added during the interval.  After almost exactly 3000 miles, I collected a 100ml. sample of oil, mid drain so it wasn't contaminated by the plug or contain settled particulates.  I sent the sample to Blackstone Labs for analysis of viscosity, flash point, contaminants (fuel, coolant, and silica),  and metals present indicating engine wear.  For more info on Blackstone analysis , see below:

Used Oil Analysis - Bob is the Oil Guy
This is a good article on exactly how Blackstone does the analysis.

Blackstone's sit can be found here:

Blackstone Labs

I have attached the Oil Report that Blackstone returned to me in about a week.  If you read the report you will see that they show universal averages (average values for V10 engines like mine with about a 4500 mile oil change interval) and their recommendation that given my values,  5000 miles between oil changes will be a good goal.  It is interesting that this value is nearly half way between what Lazy Daze recommends and the official Ford recommendation.  In this case, the actual data on the condition of my used oil will drive my decisions more than recommendations from the factory or from Ford.

I think I will stretch my next oil change interval to 4500 - 5000 miles and send in another sample.  For a nominal additional fee, they will analyze the remaining additives.  If the values still show that my oil meets specifications, I will change my oil change interval to what they recommend.

As always, YMMV.  I do think this analysis is interesting and am kind of looking forward to what they tell me after the next interval.

Harold
2014 27 MB
Towd: Either the Jeep Wrangler or trailer containing the BMW R1200GS and 2 E-bicycles
Happy wife=Happy life
Re: Another Oil Change interval, data driven
Reply #1 –
Yes, please update us!  Perhaps the more frequent change recommendation from Lazy Daze is because of the weight of a motorhome application (more severe use)?
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: Another Oil Change interval, data driven
Reply #2 –
Perhaps.  But if so,it should be reflected in the measured condition of the oil at the end of the interval.

HD
2014 27 MB
Towd: Either the Jeep Wrangler or trailer containing the BMW R1200GS and 2 E-bicycles
Happy wife=Happy life
Re: Another Oil Change interval, data driven
Reply #3 –
Ford told us to change oil every 5,000 miles if we are towing.  I am unsure about the maximum time limit between changes, 6 months or 1 year?
Ross Taylor
2017 MB
Re: Another Oil Change interval, data driven
Reply #4 –
Harold,

While the mileage driven plays a critical role in the age/wear of the engine oil, what would you infer this to mean if a motor coach, truck etc gathers more moss than mileage?

Six moths or? As it is my LD has just turned 8,000 miles and is on its third oil change.

The first oil change was as recommended by Ford/LD. At 1000 or 1500 miles I believe. At that point I went full synthetic and just now at 8,000 miles it had its 3rd oil change.

Assuming an average of 6500 miles a year on the rig that would put 3000 +/- miles at around 6 months. Considering these numbers (without oil analysis) it would appear the oil change would be right at the six month mark.

So if six months is the "golden age" of oil should the oil be left in the oil pan of a vehicle that gets less use (my Sequoia takes an eternity to gain 3000 miles...5 years of ownership and I have put less than 5,000 miles on it).

What say thee, friend? Change at six months no matter what...or let it ride? 🤔

Kent
2015 27' RB "MissB.Haven"
Re: Another Oil Change interval, data driven
Reply #5 –
Harold, your report is interesting. Since you have so few miles on your rig, i would be very surprised if the report showed much wear on the engine. It is your vehicle, so follow whatever schedule you want and use whatever products please.

But I will point out that your chassis is probably still under warranty by Ford. I don't have an owner's manual for a 2014 E450 but my 2003 manual recommends 5w20 synthetic blend. Back then, Ford had two maintenance schedules, standard duty and severe duty. I *think* with our rigs being so close to weight limits and often towing a vehicle too, I can understand the suggestion to change the oil and filter at more frequent intervals.

We have accumulated a lot of miles on our 2003; over 130,000 as of now. Due to the length of our trips and having encountered difficulty finding a place to get our oil changed on the road a few times, I switched over to full synthetic oil. I feel comfortable stretching the interval when using synthetic. I change it myself at home eliminating the need to find a place to get an oil change. Buying name brand oil full synthetic oil on sale means it is usually less expensive than conventional or syn blend oil. I will change it between 3000 and 5000 miles based on travel plans. I would like to get an analysis done to get an indication of our engine's condition.

IF I were looking at a used rig, I would question somebody using conventional oil and stretching the interval, but hey, that's just me. As some like to say, YMMV.

Steve K.


Steve K

2003 Mid-bath
Re: Another Oil Change interval, data driven
Reply #6 –
Steve,
I can't argue with your use of synthetic oils.  There are sources that say that the lubricating properties are better than conventional mineral oils, and the additives are supposed to last longer.  However, I question whether one gains the longevity benefit of full synthetic when the oil is changed between 3,000 miles and 5,000 miles.

I do run full synthetic in my motorcycle, as specified by the manufacturer because the rpm range goes to 8000+ rpm (and I hit it frequently) and the oil change interval is 6000 miles.  It is not only the written requirement of the manufacturer as found in the owner's manual, but it makes good intuitive sense to use the synthetic for the benefits it provides.  I also use it in my bride's little MX5 which only holds about 3.2qts of oil and she beats it like a rented mule. It needs the additional lubrication.

Upon checking the 2014 Ford E series owners manual under capacities and specifications, the manual very clearly states that the Dana limited slip axles require a full synthetic, but the conventional axles do not.  The manual specifies Motorcraft SAE 5W-20Motor Oil, but does not specifically suggest or require full synthetic.  Since the owners manual is the basis of whether Ford could reject a warranty claim, and it specifies synthetic for some applications yet not for engine oil, I think the use of synthetic or conventional oil is left to the owner.

Harold
2014 27 MB
Towd: Either the Jeep Wrangler or trailer containing the BMW R1200GS and 2 E-bicycles
Happy wife=Happy life
Re: Another Oil Change interval, data driven
Reply #7 –
The Ford maintenance schedules advise an oil and filter change using Motorcraft 5W20 every 5000 miles under "normal" use conditions; if one is towing, the interval may shrink.

Maintenance Schedules | fleet.ford.com

Unless one has very sound mechanical reasons to do otherwise based on knowledge and experience, following the Ford manual's recommendations for fluids and service intervals for one's particular model and usage type will help to ensure long engine and systems lives and perhaps alleviate some of the "anxiety" (that some may feel) about what to do and when to do it.

I have no issues with doing as much timely preventive maintenance as possible and/or "pushing" service intervals , i.e., servicing systems before Ford recommends, and I diligently follow a "beyond the maintenance schedule" list of services suggested by a mechanical guru with many years of experience. I certainly get (and share!) the desire to systematically maintain one's rig properly from the get-go, but I also know that there can be potential to "overthink" some issues and/or switch to products/parts/fluids that may be inferior in quality and performance to the OEM recommendations.

This maintenance protocol has worked well on a 2003 for over 102,000 miles; when "better mousetraps" appear in the form of fluids, parts, systems, protocols, or whatever else, I'll research it, get "professional" input, and decide whether to switch. 

That YMMV thing - again. ;)
2003 TK has a new home
Re: Another Oil Change interval, data driven
Reply #8 –
My 2014 Ford Owners Manual on page 419 (Scheduled Maintenance) specifies that the oil change interval under normal conditions is 7500 miles or six months, whichever comes first.

Other than that we are in agreement.

HD
2014 27 MB
Towd: Either the Jeep Wrangler or trailer containing the BMW R1200GS and 2 E-bicycles
Happy wife=Happy life
Re: Another Oil Change interval, data driven
Reply #9 –
Kent,
Since ford specifies normal use interval of 7500 miles or 6 months, whichever comes first, I'll stick the 6 month duration.  As for the mileage interval, as I wrote earlier, I'll shoot for 4500 - 5000 miles (as suggested by Blackstone based on my tested values) and get the oil retested. That interval will be right in between the Lazy Daze manual and the interval specified by Ford for my year.

Harold
2014 27 MB
Towd: Either the Jeep Wrangler or trailer containing the BMW R1200GS and 2 E-bicycles
Happy wife=Happy life
Re: Another Oil Change interval, data driven
Reply #10 –
Thanks Harold,

Sounds like a plan. Couldn't get any easier than that.

I must admit that I've gotten a lot better at regularly changing the oil in my vehicles than in my (much) younger years.

Those were the days that you could have pulled a dinosaur out of my used oil.

Kent
2015 27' RB "MissB.Haven"
Re: Another Oil Change interval, data driven
Reply #11 –
Interesting difference in oil change interval recommendations between your 2014 and my 2003, i.e., 7500k vs. 5000k. Does your owner's manual specify Motorcraft "syn-blend" 5W20?

I've always used the Motorcraft 5W20 synthetic blend, so I'm very curious as to why there would be a difference in the interval recommendation; is there a difference between the formulations of the 5W20 Motorcraft oil between 2003 and 2014, i.e., some change/improvement in oil "lubricity" that would allow for a longer interval? Is the difference due to increased engine efficiency in the newer V-10s?

I must know the answer to this!  :D

2003 TK has a new home
Re: Another Oil Change interval, data driven
Reply #12 –
This is interesting!  No, my 2014 manual does not specify full, or blended synthetic in the specifications and capacities section.  Because it does specify full synthetic for other applications (limited slip differentials), I suspect that it is not an oversight.

If Ford specified synthetic, I would use it.

My only intention in creating this thread was to share the tool that Blackstone provides and that there may be a longer, safe oil change interval than the 3000 miles that is listed in the Lazy Daze OM.  Blackstone's recommendation is certainly less than the  7500 miles recommended by Ford, and it may be due to the physical, mechanical, and chemical effects in the oil of the more severe duty that the motorhome weight puts on the engine and running gear.

I have 126,000 miles on my 2002 Ford diesel truck and every mile of that was either pulling a fifth wheel, carrying a 4600lb camper, or pulling a 10,000 lb. triple axle trailer.  It doesn't carry the kiddies to soccer.  I've been following Blackstone's oil and interval recommendations and the oil pressure is still in the upper portion of the range and the engine has never been apart.

Harold
2014 27 MB
Towd: Either the Jeep Wrangler or trailer containing the BMW R1200GS and 2 E-bicycles
Happy wife=Happy life
Re: Another Oil Change interval, data driven
Reply #13 –
I love oil change threads. I sometimes read bobistheoilguy.com just for fun.  Anyone running a Powerstroke gets very "into" oil as the HPOP driven injectors depend on the oil to run, putting tremendous sheer on the oil along with the diesel temperature and soot. 

We are seeing manufacturers extend oil change intervals- the Transit diesel is 18,500 miles IIRC. Competition for lowering operating cost is a factor along with improved build tolerances and other engine building magic.  And there are those who add filters, run synthetic, do Blackstone testing and argue for 15,000+ mile intervals. Seems like a lot of contortions to save a few dollars a year.

The manual is the maintenance bible, and as far as I know they don't consider synthetics a rationale to extend those intervals when considering warranty claims. That said, I wonder how often modern engines fail due to lubrication issues?

I confess to paying too much for oil, running full synthetic that is better than the original spec on my engines, and also confess to extending the intervals beyond the 5000 mile mark when traveling.

If I followed the 6 month recommendation I would change oil in all three vehicles, park two in the barn, go off on one of our 6 month tours in Lazy Days, come home and pull out the two I left home and drain the oil. Seems crazy.

I really should send some samples in to Blackstone.
Paul
'92 Mid Bath
Re: Another Oil Change interval, data driven
Reply #16 –
The change intervals have increased through the years due to changes in the oil.
Today's oils are better than what was available 10-15 years ago and is the main reason why the change intervals have increased.
The switch to sequential fuel injection, back in the late 90's, also helped by preventing excessive gas from being injected, keeping the mixture correct.
This stopped excessive, unburned gas from getting into the oil, diluting it.

Reading various years of Ford Owner's Manuals is interesting.
Find Your Owner Guide | Vehicle Basics | Official Ford Owner Site
Our 2003 LD owner's manual calls a 5-20wt semi-synthetic oil, API grade.SL. The recommended change intervals 5000 miles  normal usage vs. 3000 miles for severe service. Towing is considered severe usage.
2013 and 2014 both call for a 5-20wt, conventional oil, API grade SN, change intervals of 7500 mile vs. 5000 miles severe usage.
Here is what I found interesting
2015 and beyond, the manual calls for a 5-20wt full synthetic, API grade SN, with the same extended intervals.
The manual also states NOT to use lesser grades, mentioning both SM and SL.
So today, Ford recommends a full synthetic for the V10.
AFAIK, there have been no changes to the V10's internal parts that would require the change.

Using regular dyno oil is fine as long as the API grade rating is equal to or a higher grade than what is recommended in the owner's manual.
API Engine Oil Classification
 
Our LD has used Mobil 1 since new, changing oil at around 5000 miles. We tow most of the time.
In reality, the oil can go many more miles but when the oil starts thickening up, it gets changed.
Old habits died hard. It doesn't hurt anything but my wallet. Driving only 8000 miles a year, it isn't a huge expense.
Good to know that Ford now recommends a full synthetic.

About 15 years ago, we ran a series of long term oil testing, on the fleet at LAX, to determine the type of oil to used and the change intervals.
It was found that 7500 mile change intervals, using conventional oils, was appropriate for most of the vehicles.
This included vehicles that idled for hours at a time, a situation that once wore engines prematurely.
Vehicles, using synthetics, were still fine at the 12,000 mile point, where we stopped testing.
It was decided to stay with conventional oils, using a 7500 mile interval, primarily because fleet vehicles get beat and need a full inspection every 7500 miles.
Today's oils are even better than what we tested.
At the time, I commuted 75 miles a day in a Dodge Dakota, using Mobil 1.
After seeing the results from the oil testing, I used 12,000 mile change intervals, for the first 120,000 miles, when I sold it to a friend.
It is still running fine at at over 250,000 miles, using the same change intervals.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Another Oil Change interval, data driven
Reply #17 –
Thanks Larry,
Good contribution to the discussion, especially the fleet testing at LAX.

I wonder why Ford has changed their recommendation to Full-Synthetic for the recent models.  Perhaps superior lubricating capabilities?

Like our marine engines, I suspect that if an owner does regular and frequent oil changes with either conventional or full-synthetic, in the long run the cause of the engine's failure won't be due to an oil lubricated part.  It will be due to a bunch of  other problems that just become too expensive to repair and still have a reliable vehicle for future trips. My son and I were shopping for a diesel truck for him that he could afford.  The problems we saw in used high mileage trucks weren't the engine.  They were everything else.

I think the answer for RV owners is to stick to the manufacturer's recommendation for oil type, viscosity, and interval, and change the oil as prescribed or more frequently.  Oil analysis is interesting for what is happening in the engine in the interim.

Harold
2014 27 MB
Towd: Either the Jeep Wrangler or trailer containing the BMW R1200GS and 2 E-bicycles
Happy wife=Happy life
Re: Another Oil Change interval, data driven
Reply #18 –
As I understand it, Ford, like all other manufacturers has moved to synthetic oils to capitalize on the ability to use the improved emissions benefit at startup of low viscosity oils without compromising lubrication.

Another benefit, probably equal, is the ability to advertise lower fleet maintenance costs, which seems to be the new horsepower race.
Paul
'92 Mid Bath
Re: Another Oil Change interval, data driven
Reply #19 –
My 2017 27' mid bath calls for 5-30 synthetic blend (XO-5W30-QSP). Interval is 7,500 miles or six months whichever comes first.
Charlie Gary


Charlie Gary
2016 Subaru Forester
Re: Another Oil Change interval, data driven
Reply #20 –
Quote from: Bookcop  - 
My 2017 27' mid bath calls for 5-30 synthetic blend (XO-5W30-QSP). Interval is 7,500 miles or six months whichever comes first.
Once again, Ford has changed the oil requirements. No idea why they switched to 5-30wt synthetic blend (there is a difference between a blend and a full synthetic) but do use the recommended oil.  Full synthetics are great but a little more expensive.

Using 5-30-wt in a older LD will not cause problems, other than causing a minimal decreased incas mileage, a change so small I doubt if you will notice  it.

Enjoy the new rig.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Another Oil Change interval, data driven
Reply #21 –
I know this is late to the conversation but here goes.  When I was arranging the trip back to Florida from the mothership with our new 27'MB a couple of weeks ago, I scheduled the 1,500 mile-first oil change in Grand Prairie, TX.  We pulled into the Ford dealership and when I told the manager of the service department that we were here for the 1,500 mile initial oil change he said.,  "I don't think that's a good idea; the recommendation is for 5,000 miles."  When I told him I read otherwise he asked me to show him the documents.  Another guy there said he had been working for Ford for 16 years and the oil should not be changed after 1,500 miles, "the engine is not even broken in yet."   I asked if we should do it when we got back to Florida, around 3,000 miles.  He said if it made me feel better, go for it, but it was not necessary.  I don't think it will hurt, so I plan to have the oil changed sometime in the next few weeks before we head out again, mid-July.
David and Marie Philbrick
Proud former 2017 27' MB Owners
Re: Another Oil Change interval, data driven
Reply #22 –
FWIW, I changed the oil on our new Outback after only 1,000 miles just because.  The recommendation for first change is 6,000 and I'm a little over 3,000 now. 

I think it's just a matter of what you are comfortable with and if your willing to spend the money. Oil and filters are cheap insurance and as long as you follow the manufacturer's recommendations at a minimum, no worries!
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: Another Oil Change interval, data driven
Reply #23 –
In the 2014 Ford E-Series Owner's Manual the oil change and filter  is 7500 miles or 6 months.   Motorcraft SAE 4W-20 Motor Oil.

You can't go wrong following what Ford recommends. 
personal fine art photo stuff
TF Mack | Flickr
It's all good .......
2014 Twin King
Re: Another Oil Change interval, data driven
Reply #24 –
In my 2002 I change oil every 3000 miles but did go 4000 on our last trip.
Lynn and Lori