RV Monopolies July 09, 2016, 09:51:52 am I read this in RVTravel.com this morning: According to rvdailyreport.com, 86 percent of RV manufacturing in the U.S. is now controlled by two companies – Forest River and Thor. Only 1 in 6 RV building companies are independently owned.I can only imagine what happens to quality control when so much manufacturing is controlled by so few. One more good reason to consider Lazy Daze.Chris 4 Likes
Re: RV Monopolies Reply #1 – July 09, 2016, 12:26:38 pm Yes, even good old Airstream is a Thor company. When you tour their plant you wonder how it is any different from any other RV. We really noticed this when we bought our last trailer. All the Berkshire Hathaway units had the same vinyl flooring. And it was ugly. Funny though, Rockwood is one of theirs but has several sub brands. Built in different places. Ours was well built, but not high quality. Winebago is independent, and very large in certain segments, and seems to have its own issues of inconsistency, from what I have seen. They have two big plants, plus several subsidiaries that built components. It's a strange business, and it cyclical nature reinforces the inconsistency by necessitating hire/layoff cycles that result in under trained workers. I like the small nature of a family owned operation like LD. We had a Bigfoot camper that was the same way, till they ran out of family to run it and went bust. The way LD runs the business helps buffer the trends. I hope LD continues, it's hard to manage a family business for three generations. Unless your name is Ford.
Re: RV Monopolies Reply #2 – July 09, 2016, 02:11:39 pm Well, the Erwin Hymer Group has brought Roadtrek. Its just a matter of time before Europe's largest RV manufacturer comes to the USA. I'm looking forward to a very interesting shake out of the whole industry. Roadtrek Acquired by Erwin Hymer Group | RoadtrekingQuoting from article "the Hymer Group manufactures 35,000 units a year, which is almost as big as the entire North American motorhome market from all companies combined.”
Re: RV Monopolies Reply #3 – July 09, 2016, 02:39:25 pm Indeed the Hymer acquisition is interesting. With Fiat, Ford and Mercedes accounting for the great majority of coach chassis here, there is no barrier to adapting European coaches to North America. What makes the trip will be as much a comment on the American RV community as on creative designers. Perhaps opening more appeal to younger markets. Joining with a Canadian company gives them a great entry point for the whole market. New ideas and competitors will improve the breed. I know Winebago looks to Europe for some B van designs, but you would never know looking at them. We shall see! 1 Likes
Re: RV Monopolies Reply #4 – July 09, 2016, 02:48:50 pm The Hymer development is interesting -Roadtrek (Michigan) will build their first U.S Grand Canyon's under close quality control conditions. They have added waste tanks to accommodate the US market. (In Europe they use cassette toilets). Great option if you want quality built Class B.We live near Winnebago Industries and will include a tour of their plant in Iowa as part of this long search for a new RV. In these parts you see a lot of Winnebago product. Many 20+ year old units on the road. They must be doing something right.We walked through the Minnie Winnie 25B which is comparable in size to a LD RB or MB. Price is 20-25% less than LD - of course there are differences. The large dealer in Duluth MN is selling 5-20 units day according to the salesman and they are adding 12 or more service bays to an already big facility. The industry is booming.I wonder how long LD will be around. Their website hasn't been touched in a year and still shows 2015 prices even though new owners have indicated they are paying more.
Re: RV Monopolies Reply #5 – July 11, 2016, 03:54:04 pm When one browses on RV Trader or walks around any campground, you don't get the feeling that the industry is dominated by 1 or 2 players. Certainly there are the big boys and their offerings may reflect some positives like economies of scale. And to some extent a profit motive with some corners cut. I'm not pro or con (big vs little) - I'm pro choice.Winnebago has their "super structure"' Jayco has their "J Ride". These things are worth studying before signing up for a 75K or 100K purchase.
Re: RV Monopolies Reply #6 – July 11, 2016, 04:14:33 pm "you don't get the feeling that the industry is dominated by 1 or 2 players."I think what the article is saying is that much like Ford and GM, a few big players make vehicles carrying many different names and spanning the quality range. Unlike cars, most of us don't know just what company is producing what brands.Ed 1 Likes
Re: RV Monopolies Reply #7 – July 11, 2016, 06:06:08 pm Quote from: Ed D. - July 11, 2016, 04:14:33 pmI think what the article is saying is that much like Ford and GM, a few big players make vehicles carrying many different names and spanning the quality range. Unlike cars, most of us don't know just what company is producing what brands.Imagine if GM still built motorhomes.1983 Fortune: Will Success Spoil General Motors?Larry
Re: RV Monopolies Reply #8 – July 11, 2016, 08:02:08 pm Quote from: Larry Wade - July 11, 2016, 06:06:08 pmImagine if GM still built motorhomes.1983 Fortune: Will Success Spoil General Motors?LarryWhen we were camping in the '73- '78 timeframe, every time I saw a GMC Eleganza pull into a campground I'd wonder how someone could be so rich as to own one. Ed
Re: RV Monopolies Reply #9 – July 12, 2016, 03:46:36 am The Fortune article Larry cited is can be now considered an ironic icon. The A body was the apogee of GM design (not in a good way, in a lowest common denominator way), the beginning of the current slide. Of course the comparison with the auto industry suffers because there have been many critical factors in recent auto industry history (economic, labor force, globalization, financial, etc), that dwarf the issue of design and engineering. But the Fortune cover sure brought back painful memories! I don't think the big RV "collective" is making the same mistake of building all its models on a couple of platforms regardless of their brand, but I am amazed at the overlap in models. We can't tell them apart sometimes. What a market! Now the GM motor home of the early '70s! There is a gem. It is rising in value if you can find a decent one to rehab. Very restorable, with a growing supply of parts makers. Decent ones sell for $20-$35K. And talk about a head turner in any campground! 455 Olds Toronado drivertrain. What a gem from GM!
Re: RV Monopolies Reply #10 – July 12, 2016, 12:14:49 pm Quote from: tjfhrb_16034 - July 11, 2016, 03:54:04 pmWhen one browses on RV Trader or walks around any campground, you don't get the feeling that the industry is dominated by 1 or 2 players. If you go by brand names, appearances can be deceiving. Here's a list from a few years back of brand names from one manufacturer alone:FLEETWOOD BRANDSAmerican Coach Diesel Motor HomesRevolution LEExcursionProvidenceDiscoveryBounder DieselExpedition Gas Motor HomesPace ArrowSouthwindBounderTerra LXFiesta LXTerra X2Fiesta X2TerraFiestaFlairStorm Class C Motor HomesIconPulseJamboree GTTioga SLJamboreeTiogaJamboree SportTioga Ranger Luxury 5th WheelsQuantumRegal Travel Trailers & Fifth WheelsTerry LXTerry PremierTerryProwlerWildernessMallardPioneer Ultra LitesBackpackCompassOrbitPegasus Toy HaulersGearBoxFormulaNitrous HyperliteRedLine HyperliteJust glancing at some of these rigs on a showroom floor, you might not realize from the way they're labeled that they were all made by the same company. 1 Likes
Re: RV Monopolies Reply #11 – July 12, 2016, 02:35:13 pm In spite of an industry dominated by two major conglomerates, the dealer network resembles something more along the lines of a bazaar. When you own a Berkshire Hathaway-Forest River-Rockwood- Windjammer trailer, don't even think the local dealer who sells the Berkshire Hathaway-Forest River-Rockwood-Ultra Lite will perform warrant work. No siree. And we all know the quality of work is largely dependent on the dealer's ethics. The auto dealer franchise system was established and is protected by laws around the country that give the dealers monopoly protection in order to adress this problem. It was a big issue when the auto business was fragmented like the RV business is now. There were 78 manufacturers in Indianna alone. Many lasted only a few years. Others consolidated. Customers had no dealer net to rely on. That is why Tesla and other upstarts are not allowed to have a showroom in many states, to protect the dealers. Business can be like the Game of Thrones. 1 Likes
Re: RV Monopolies Reply #12 – July 16, 2016, 03:35:54 pm I've been following an interesting series of commentaries on the state of the whole RV industry, from manufacturers to suppliers to dealers to campgrounds. The author is Greg Gerber and his well-taken observations can be found at RV Industry News | RV Daily Report. He also mentions the two manufacturers that now control 83% of the market, and how they are squeezing out the little guys. Each of his articles is lengthy but very interesting. I recommend them heartily. He has three yet to be published.
Re: RV Monopolies Reply #13 – July 16, 2016, 04:25:25 pm "don't even think the local dealer who sells the Berkshire Hathaway-Forest River-Rockwood-Ultra Lite will perform warrant work. No siree. And we all know the quality of work is largely dependent on the dealer's ethics. "Ran into this a while back. The A/C unit died while under warranty. Through Google and Yelp I found two local dealerships that got good reviews. One only sold TT's and 5th Wheels and said that's all they service. My explaining that replacing an A/C unit is the same regardless, did not carry the day.The other was very upfront and said they only do warranty work on units they sold, regardless of the brand. The reason, of course, is that warranty work pays very poorly.I went to the local Camping World as they would do the work regardless of RV brand or where you bought it. I soon found out why.Late in the day when they were doing the work, the service supervisor called to say his crew was having a difficult time removing the unit because of the way it was installed. I could either pay them $125 for the extra time involved, or pick up the RV. I suspect 'having a difficult time' was the standard line to get warranty customers to pay some money to offset the low reimbursement rate from the manufacturer. Not having any good choice, I OK'ed the work. That was about six months ago. The unit works fine and does not leak in heavy rains. I was quite pleased with the quality of the work plus it was done when promised. I'll go back even though I think I was conned out of my $125.
Re: RV Monopolies Reply #14 – July 16, 2016, 04:51:56 pm Quote from: Ed D. - July 16, 2016, 04:25:25 pmI went to the local Camping World as they would do the work regardless of RV brand or where you bought it. I soon found out why.Late in the day when they were doing the work, the service supervisor called to say his crew was having a difficult time removing the unit because of the way it was installed. I could either pay them $125 for the extra time involved, or pick up the RV. I suspect 'having a difficult time' was the standard line to get warranty customers to pay some money to offset the low reimbursement rate from the manufacturer. Not having any good choice, I OK'ed the work. That was about six months ago. The unit works fine and does not leak in heavy rains. I was quite pleased with the quality of the work plus it was done when promised. I'll go back even though I think I was conned out of my $125. I guess if LD did something unusual in the installation of the AC I could have swallowed that. However, if that wasn't the case I would have taken this up with the AC manufacturer to let them know that CW really isn't doing warranty work according to agreed terms. Did they share what the problem was?Jim
Re: RV Monopolies Reply #15 – July 16, 2016, 05:44:43 pm This is evolving into a thread about service difficulties which is a topic we can all relate to. The industry is booming which means that they have more work than they can handle. I had good luck getting a water heater circuit board diagnosed and replaced at CW. It was a long standing problem that they fixed on the first try. On a more recent visit this spring, they fixed some additional things (bad outside porch light, stove igniter, shore power cord). On our broken awning, they took the time to look at it and were willing to order replacement parts if we went that route.Also listened to the toilet seal problem (won't hold water). and suggested that we try Thetford's toilet seal conditioner which we did and it simply ran into the holding tank. At least they tried the easy solution first. In other years, the toilet seal 'came back' but not this time. The toilet seal (or lake thereof) is an annoying problem, on our recent trip to the North Shore, I decided I couldn't live with it, called a local mobile RV guy who called right back and promised to come replace it, but in the end never got back to me. Once our new awning that we ordered directly from fiamma comes and is installed. the toilet seal is the only major repair on my plate right now. (knock on wood). Now that I've seen the price increase on a new LD and add options and tax, my dream of a new rig is further out and we have to nurse Bessie along the best we can. For the most part we are happy, but she rides very rough in the coach and I'm not willing to sink any $ into that department on a 17 year old rig. The ride in the cab is quieter and if I stay mostly out of the coach, I am happy.
Re: RV Monopolies Reply #16 – July 16, 2016, 06:22:33 pm Quote from: Jim & Gayle - July 16, 2016, 04:51:56 pm. Did they share what the problem was?JimNo, they did not specifically. Only that it was taking longer than normal.It was late in the day, my choices were take it or leave it, I didn't feel like doing battle. Under the circumstances, $125 seemed reasonable for a completly new unit with a new warranty. Con job or not. EdI'll add that one advantage of doing business with CW is that they are the only national chain. They offer a one year parts and labor warranty on all work they do.
Re: RV Monopolies Reply #17 – July 19, 2016, 02:25:40 pm Another great reason for a midwest location of "Larry's LD Wizards R Us". ...and Chillicothe is centrally located at the intersection of US 36 (4 lanes clear across the state from St. Joe to Hannibal) & US 65, and only forty minutes east of I-35. The hill ground has never flooded, & the state raised the roadbed west of the river after the Flood of '93, so there is access from all compass points.Even though there are CWs much closer in Columbia (central MO) & Kansas City, having heard so many off stories, I was referred by some folks at church who have a Hitchhiker 5th-wheeler to Kansas RV Center in Chanute, KS. (a couple of hours SW of Kansas City), where I recently had some plumbing work done (long, sad, stupid/ignorant educational experience to relate at another time). Apparently, this is the home of Nu-Wa Hitchhiker, but they will also do work on other brands. I was pleased with the work--they let me lurk in the shop, patiently answered my many questions, & "edumacated" me about a lot--including proper winterizing in the future to I'll go back since, despite all my weepin' & whinin' & gnashin' of teeth, Larry ain't comin' east of the Rockies. >grimmace< Also, there is a Ford dealership just up the road (Merle Kelly Ford) who were outstanding. They took care of the alignment issue (Andy, in answer to your clarifying question when I asked about alignment issues a while back, it was a Saf-T-Plus that the previous owners had installed & Midway Ford removed). Midway Ford in KC is no longer on my recommended list. The guys at Merle Kelley showed me what they think caused the alignment to go awry (sorry, I can't figure out how to post the service manager's iPhone video of the problem here, but Midwest Ford apparently didn't tighten something all the way down as they should have)--plus brake pads that should have long since been replaced (fortunately, the rotors weren't damaged) & some other things they would not have let their grandma drive with (realizing some things don't require immediate attention if a person is knowledgeable enough to keep an eye on it/able to recognize the point when OK goes to Do It Now, since they all look so young anymore, that's my standard question, "Would you let your grandma drive it like that?")... It took them two days to get LDy Lulubelle happy, but they rolled me out of the shop/hooked me up to their electricity on the back lot overnight, so the 4-Legged Alarm & I didn't have to find a motel.Also, the City of Chanute provides excellent level camping with W & E for up to two nights FREE. I went down the night before the plumbing work at KS RV, when the midwest heat & humidity had really started building, so I definitely needed the AC. The campground is right across the street from the Ford dealer/a bit east of the RV center, across the road from the ballpark, and generally nice--though spaces are close together & there are no picnic tables/fire rings/etc.
Re: RV Monopolies Reply #18 – July 19, 2016, 04:39:21 pm Ted, Joan started a topic about the series of articles you refer to here. It raises issues we all get worked up about, but kind of reads like a long series of forum rants with a very "click bait" heading. There is another threadhere that discusses LD longevity, a topic the series cites rightly as a problem. Now we have Hymer joining the market with a different business philosophy, and of course, Winebago is no small potatoes and desirous go growth too. So along with the several niche players like LD and Born Free, maybe there are bright spots. But as long as people are willing to buy new RVs because they have new features and colors, and are unwilling to pay for quality, the lowest common denominator will prevail.Or as a wise man once told me "You'll never go broke underestimating the American public." Of course the service environment is so fragmented and "mom and pop shop" dominated that it is a major headache for RVers. So Camping World is the one eyed king in the land of the blind. Thanks for letting me get all my cliches and colloquialisms in one post. 1 Likes
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