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Help! Broke down in the desert!
Yahoo Message Number: 158690
Hey all. I have a 1990 LD Ford E350 with a 460. Last night while driving through the middle of the Mojave Desert my rig lost engine power, check engine light came on, she stalled out and wouldn't come back on. After about 2 hours a tow truck came by and to avoid the $1,000 tow to the nearest shop in Vegas I gave her another try and she started. I drove to the shop in Vegas this morning. The mechanic said all he could find was that the fuel filter was 'a little dirty' and he replaced it. I paid for a full inspection beyond that and he deemed me travel worthy. I drove around Vegas for about 25 or so Miles running errands at all speeds and no problem. I hit the Blue Diamond hey on route to Death Valley and she broke down again! Same thing. Lost MPH while accelerating, pulled to the side of the highway and she shut off. Gave her a few cranks and nothing. I bet if I. Let her sit for an hour or two like last night shell start again. But I am apprehensive to head back into the desert like this. I put a call into the mechanic that cleared me for travel but wanted to post here as well. Thankfully I have 4G. Last night I was all alone in the desert!

Any advice folks?
Re: Help! Broke down in the desert!
Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 158691
Could be fuel pump related. Had similar issue with different vehicle and fuel pump was culprit after it heated up. Once it cooled down, would start up, etc.

Just a possibility but thought I'd mention it.

John
Re: Help! Broke down in the desert!
Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 158692
Could be vapor lock, how hot is it getting when it happens?

Neal

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Help! Broke down in the desert!
Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 158693
Lordy did this bring back memories! About 45 years ago was driving through Death Valley with my brother on the way to Las Vegas in my 56 Cadillac in the heat of summer when I experienced Very similar symptoms. To cut a long story short, made it to Vegas holding a gas can on the dashboard with a tube running directly to the carb . Blew out the gasoline, changed the fuel pump and filter and drove back to San Francisco AT NIGHT after local advise convinced me that almost certainly I was suffering from vapor lock resulting from the gasoline boiling in the tank. I doubt this has any relevance to the problem you are having, but the serendipity intrigues me. Pardon me for sharing. YMWillV !
Re: Help! Broke down in the desert!
Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 158694
I had the same problem with my 1991 Holiday Rambler on a E350 Chassis with the 460.  Be proactive and just change the fuel pump, I got rip off in Colorado Springs.  Cost at least twice what it should have.  The fuel pump was burnt out, could have caused a big fire, but I have a habit of topping off often, so no air to pump (which is in the tank).  Do some research, ford has an upgraded pump that is a little different in wiring.  I could not get that as the rip off place would only replace with original parts.

Dan
Re: Help! Broke down in the desert!
Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 158695
It's almost a sure thing it's your fuel pump. It's a very common problem with that vintage of chassis. How much gas did you have in the tank? You can search the site for more info. Make sure who ever replaces it, puts in a pump from a '97 or newer model. Again, a search will give specifics.
Good luck.
Victor
Re: Help! Broke down in the desert!
Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 158696
Vapor lock usually happens in the fuel lines on top of the engine or near a heat source, the gas boils in the lines.

460's in the motor home chassis are known to generate lots of heat.

Neal

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Help! Broke down in the desert!
Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 158699
Made it back to the mechanic and we both climbed under the rig. He said "whoa your fuel pump is really humming" and had me put my hand on it. It was vibrating like a jack hammer! Ordered the part and will be posting up in their parking lot until morning. I gave him some shot about letting me drive away like that. He said it want something he was able to catch because it didn't run long enough during the initial check this morning. The boss quoted me $150 for labor and 100-120 for the part. Is that fair? I am going to try an get a break after the work is dine for sending me off with a bad fuel pump. What is the opinion of the group? I that an honest mistake, something he could have missed or is it negligence worthy of a bit of a discount?
 Thank you all for your help. Definitely feel less alone on the road with this group!
Re: Help! Broke down in the desert!
Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 158700
No. The vapor lock occurs in the pump. Which is in the tank. The pump gets hot. This typically happens when you have less than half a tank and driving in warm/hot weather.
I had a '91 and the same thing happened top me.
Re: Help! Broke down in the desert!
Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 158701
If I asked for a new model fuel pump can you give me a bit more insight as to why? This way I know a bit about what I'm asking for and why. ThAnks
Re: Help! Broke down in the desert!
Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 158702
I think you're getting a fair deal from an ethical shop. Lucky this didn't happen in Needles or Blythe. Mark (former mechanic)
Re: Help! Broke down in the desert!
Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 158703
Fear and Loathing in the desert.

Wouldn't break his balls over issue given circumstances. Consider yourself lucky that you made it back and he's not charging you an outrageous price for replacing pump.

Patience my son. He might invite to his home for dinner.

John
Re: Help! Broke down in the desert!
Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 158704
The pumps made pre- 97 have a defect. They were redesigned in 97. The new pumps have slightly different electrical connections and require an adapter.
If you get the original style pump, you will eventually have the same problem again.
I recall someone on this list having a problem even locating the original style pump.
Hope that helps.
Victor
Re: Help! Broke down in the desert!
Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 158705
We have  a 92 ford 460. Lost the fuel pump two years ago and it sounded much like this. The pump is in the gas tank so a big hassle to replace.
 A week ago we were going down the Central Valley in CA and started loosing power. Finally down to about 35. Gauges all normal and the check engine light didn't come on. Called our mechanic in Oregon who said don't bother running the codes there won't be any. Took it to a Ford dealer and yep no codes. Turned out the catalytic converter was toast!  $1800 later she runs like a champ and towed our Jeep over the pass into LA no problem. Even improved our mpg.
2004 MB
Re: Help! Broke down in the desert!
Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 158707
Just an opinion but I think the error is yours. You should have pulled out your spare fuel pump and had him put it in. Barring that you should have had him put in a new one.
Harry 2006 RB
Harry 2006RB
Re: Help! Broke down in the desert!
Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 158709
While a noisy pump often indicates a problem it doesn't necessarily mean you have found the problem. There are other parts that would can cause the engine to stop running that are also heat sensitive, failing only when hot and working again, once cooled. The two most likely items of a ignition system of your LD's vintage are the ignition coil and ignition module.
Heat related failures are very hard to troubleshoot, you need to be able to quickly check for spark, fuel pressure and pulsed power to the injectors, at the time of failure. Without actually checking it when it will not start, it's an educated guess.
When I owned vehicles with the same type of ignition system as your LD, I carried a spare coil, ignition module and a full tune up kit. Back in the good old days where a lot of parts needed frequent replacement.

To help troubleshoot problem with the Jeep and someday, maybe the LD, I carry a fuel pressure gauge, a wireless spark detector and fuel injector noid lights, for both engines (used to check the fuel injector circuits).
Many times a faulty part will set a Check Engine light (CEL).  An inexpensive code reader, one capable of erasing codes, is very helpful to have. You need to have a list of what the codes mean or an internet connection to check online.
I have found a lot of ScanGauges and UltraGauges that will not erase Check Engine codes, where a code reader will.
Add to the box a 12-volt test light and a decent multimeter, the type with a clamp-on amp meter is useful for a whole range of troubleshooting.
With these basic tools and proper knowledge you have a good chance of finding what part of the equation is missing.
Working with engines, gasoline and electrical can be dangerous so if you do not have the proper training or experience, let a pro do it or find a good teacher. It's cheaper than going to the hospital.

Think your fuel pump isn't working or it suddenly stops, the fuel pressure gauge can let you know if it is providing adequate pressure, which need to be within a few PSI of the set point.
The pump does not require that the engine is running to be tested, only the ignition needs to be turned on.
When attaching the gauge, have the ignition switched off. Hold a rag around the connection point to capture any gas that may still be under pressure and spray out. Safety glasses are a must.
Please stay safe or find an experienced mechanic. Try this at home so you know how it's done before needing to use it on the road. Also find the specified fuel pressure for your engine's fuel pump.
Besides helping to find a defective pump, the fuel pressure gauge can also help find leaking injectors and check valves.
http://www.harborfreight.com/fuel-injection-pump-tester-92699.html

Many newer engine have the coils mounted right on top of the spark plugs, also known as COP, coil on plug. This arrangement makes it impossible to use a conventional inline spark tester.
Both the LD's V-10 and the Jeep's 4.0 have COPs that cover most of the access to the spark plug. They do have slots where the thin tip of a wireless spark detector can be fitted.
I use one of these. It's sensitivity is adjustable, a handy feature as every engine seems to have a different physical layout requiring more or less sensitivity.
With someone cranking the engine, check for spark at one or more plugs.
Practice at home so you have a good idea where the best spots are to test for spark and how to adjust the sensitivity. Actually, the V-10 is hard to access when checking for a heat related failures, because of the difficulty of removing the doghouse quickly, needed to access the rear eight plugs. It you look and tie things back, you can access the front two plugs and injectors from under the hood.  Coils do fail, so carrying a spare isn't a bad idea. A bad coil will usually set a specified code for the cylinder.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000JFHMPC?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00

If spark and fuel pressure are present, then test the fuel injector circuits for pulsed signals. Use the proper size 'noid' light for your injector's plug. Noids are are small lights, that plug into fuel injector plugs, once uncoupled from the injector.  They test the fuel injector circuits for pulsed signals, when the engine is cranked or running. They are useful for finding a dead ignition system, a failed injector or a failed injector circuit.
My fleet contains four different sized fuel injectors plugs so it was cheaper to buy the big set and keep the extras for the future.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000YF6TN8?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

If the engine is running but either making nosies or missing, an inexpensive mechanic's stethoscope can be invaluable. You can listen to individual fuel injectors, Comparing them each other. A dead or stuck injector usually makes a much different noise. You can isolate noisy bearings and eliminate changing the wrong part. Be extremely careful to stay far away from the moving belt and pulleys, they remove fingers quickly.
Even good parts can make strange noises, it's good to know what 'normal' sounds like.
http://www.amazon.com/Powerbuilt-640582-Mechanics-Stethoscope/dp/B004KEHGZY/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1455164440&sr=1-1&keywords=mechanic+stethoscope

For all the test tools above, the internet has hundreds of sites and videos that explain how the various tools and systems being inspected work. Above all, work safely.

Larry
As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Help! Broke down in the desert!
Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 158715
Thanks for this excellent info, Larry. I just asked Ted and/or Don to add it to the Lazy Daze Companion and Ted just added it.
 In case you've missed it, folks, The Laze Daze Companion is a treasure trove of useful information about your Lazy Daze. The Lazy Daze Companion

Chris

Chris
Formerly: 2002 30' IB
Re: Help! Broke down in the desert!
Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 158720
Don't forget to give us the endgame story and total cost. Fuel pump for an E-450 2006 is around $600 from the Ford dealer and the replacement procedure is expensive, too. Expect the 1997 is cheaper.

The mechanic could be faulted for not getting you to replace the pump but if he did so he could be blamed for inflating the bill, especially if is found to be something else.

Harry 2006 RB
Harry 2006RB
Re: Help! Broke down in the desert!
Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 158722
Update so far; Fuel filter plus labor was around $120 total. Fuel pump was $120 plus $120 labor. $360 so far. Plus I needed a new U bolt AMD an oil change but I'm not figuring that in to the cost of the problem.
 I camp out at the RV shop and they start working on it around 9:00am. By noon we're test driving it and the major difference I notice is that my U joint is joint is no longer squealing. Im beginning to think all this stalling out saved me from a worse fate. So we test drive my rig 15-20 miles and no problem. No hesitation. No stalling. Head back to the shop. Settle up my bill and head out. My gut told me not to head for the desert yet. I felt like we didn't test it long enough maybe. To me, it felt like she had been going for quite a bit, heating up before she stalled the first 2 times. So I did laps around the city. Headed to best buy for a memory card. Didn't want to hit the desert until it felt right. 15 miles out. Lose power and and she stalls in the right lane. Im out there directi g traffic for nearly an hour and she soon starts again. I call the mechanic and he's dumbfounded. He says its gotta be the fuel pump in the gas tank or the ignition switch. I tell him about the info Larry gave and he said it made sense.

**bonus info** I pull into a shopping center to let her sit more before heading back to the mechanic. From my right side a Grey blur whizzess by and bounces off my right fender. no way this is happening.  I pull over and my entire bumper is all but ripped off. Some underage driver with a conditional license tried squeezing between my rig and the curb. I can't believe it. Cops come and cite her with passing on the wrong side and driving without a license. Cop says she fully insured so Ill get my rig fixed. Just that it will take some time. Im on day 8 of a 3 day Vegas trip. About to head back to the RV shop and camp overnight and take another swing in the morning. My gosh. This is my first venture out as an RV owner.  Im really earning my stripes.

Mike
Re: Help! Broke down in the desert!
Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 158724
3 day Las Vegas trip day 9. After replacing the fuel filter and fuel pump I'm in about $400. I had to replace a U joint, get an oil change and some other minor repairs while I had her in the shop but I'm not including those costs in this overall stalling issue. So parts and labor for this issue are around $400. Yesterday after replacing the fuel filter and test driving about 20 miles the issue was thought to be resolved. I paid my tab and went on my way. My gut told me not to head back into the desert yet. I felt like we didn't give her a real good test drive. So I drove around the city for a bit. Staying in my right lane. Watching my MPH. About 30 mins in it happens again. I hit the gas, MPH drops. She stalls. In the right lane of a 4 lane highway. Wonderful. Im out there in the desert directing traffic trying to formulate a game plan. I know calling a tow truck will take as long as it will take for her to sit and start again. I call the PD for some help directing traffic. Some people pull practically to my feet before seeing me and moving left. One guy had his phone propped on his steering wheel texting and I had to jump out of his way before he swerved in time to miss me and my rig. My god.
 After an hour of this she starts again. I pull out of the lane and want to get to a parking lot so I can call my mechanic and compose myself without cars whizzing by at 60 MPH. Poised to make a right from the right lane a gray blur screams by my right side and skims my front end. NO F**king way this just happened. I pull over. She pulls over. A young girl in a Carls Jr. Uniform. I ask if she's. OK. She is. Then I ask her what she was thinking. "Im sorry! Im late to pick up my autistic son " and she asks if she can leave and come back. "Sure." I tell her. Just leave me your license. She declines. I tell her to leave me her insurance. She declines. I call the cops.

Now I'm freaking out because I'm betting she's uninsured.
 Cop rolls up on his motorcycle. Speaks to her. Speaks to me. He tells me she's trying to say I cut her off or something. Great. This is not going to go smooth. She also hasn't produced any identification to this point. "I'm waiting for my dad" she keeps saying. So, dad comes. And about 30 minutes later cop Cop comes over to me, while I'm loathing in my rig. "You can keep this heap running" he says. " she's fully I soured" when. Then he says he cited her for passing on the wrong side and driving without a license. Fantastic.
 So I rip off what is left of my bumper. Throw it in the coach. Spot a pizzeria (Im from NY) and have lunch while setting things go with my insurance company and the mechanic. Turns out the do body work too. Wonderful.
 After she cools down I drive back to the RV and spend another night in their parking lot. Wake up around 7:00AM and first thing I do is give them the print out of Larry's message posted above. (Thanks Larry!) Seems to make sense to the mechanic so they are checking the ignition coil.
 In the meantime they are searching for that bumper of mine to replace. Mechanic says they don't even make them anymore. His trying to track one down preemptively as we wait for the adjuster to call.
 So. It's possible I can solve this stalling issue today but I may not be able to have the body work completed for a few days. And today is Friday. Atleast another 2+ days in Vegas.
 [Out Frame] although this is becoming extremely frustrating and I really want to get out of this city, I am fully aware that just three years ago a Thursday afternoon would have found me propped behind a desk watching the world go by through a second story window. I'd like to move on from all of this but smiling all the way through it.
 I will continue to keep you all posted. Thank you so much for your help and support. PS. .if any body wants to meet for a drink in Vegas it appears I will be here for a while.

PPS...any tips on where to find a 1990 Ford bumper?
Re: Help! Broke down in the desert!
Reply #22 –
Yahoo Message Number: 158732
You are in the city that "if it happens in LV, it stays in LV".  I think this applies to you.

Some suggestions:

-get a battery powered 12v fan to cool off local areas if the heat problem remains.  I think it would get you started faster.  Maybe rig it up to get you home.  Maybe remove your hood.

- most important - get a dash cam - there is a whole sub-culture that gets by lying and cheating.  I had a car stop for no reason in front of me.  I just turned my head and they slammed on their brakes.  They said there was a bicycle, I did not see anything.  I hit them around 10 mph and did minor damage to my truck but totaled their old car.  Of course they all had neck injury's. They got $10,000 out of this.  Now I have a dash cam.

- get an apartment and a Nevada DL, you may never get out of LV.  You could try a taxi but with your luck, this probably would not work either.  I would not get on a plane.

- Try and contact the producers of X-Files and try and sell your story to them. This sounds like it would make a good show.  The LD can be an alien life form that is trying to destroy people mentally in LV.

Contact some paranormal experts and see if they can scan your LD.

I believe most alien sightings are in Nevada. (maybe your LD is possessed). Aliens can change your perception of reality.  For example you think the driver hit you when in fact your LD hit her.

- Bumper - try to make sure whoever is looking has access to the wreaking yards hot line in So Calif.  A Google search brings up

About 845,000 results (0.34 seconds)  My guess is you have one by now.

.

Re: Help! Broke down in the desert!
Reply #23 –
Yahoo Message Number: 158734
You certainly have the right attitude and apparently an ethical mechanic. Thank you for the entertainment. Enjoyed the writing. The comment about what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas by someone else was funny, too. Thanks for the followup.
Harry 2006 RB
Harry 2006RB
Re: Help! Broke down in the desert!
Reply #24 –
Yahoo Message Number: 158737
Dear LD Amigo.  First, you're seriously overdue for some really marvelous KARMA.  And if our paths ever cross (and I hope that happens) we're buying the first round of your favorite beverage.  Please let us know how this turns out ... Margee and I are stunned by this terrible string of events.  Best wishes from Texas.

Ed & Margee Heading to Fort Richardson State Park