Inverter Choices December 28, 2015, 04:45:01 pm Yahoo Message Number: 157786Dear readers,Please help educating me about types of portable inverters you folks use/prefer for charging electronics and powering small appliances on the road. And I'm also wondering about the differences among the various wattages: 100, 200, 400, etc. and why you prefer a specific wattage over another, including the advantages, disadvantages for your choice.If you have used a trustworthy brand consistently, I'd like to hear the why's and wherefor's about that choice as well.Thanksabunch, Lorna in Coarsegold
Re: Inverter Choices Reply #1 – December 28, 2015, 05:12:12 pm Yahoo Message Number: 157787Lorna, I use a Powerbrite 1000 watt inverter. It is enough to run my motorcycle battery charger, and my TV. Forget about microwave or air conditioning with an inverter. It is important to have some sort of battery monitor so you don't discharge the coach batteries too much. AM Solar sells a nice one called Blue Sky that is also a solar charge controller with a remote display. Some use a linklite but I have seen failures with those.This may help: http://www.doityourselfrv.com/rv-inverter-how-to-best-option/bobmoore14
Re: Inverter Choices Reply #2 – December 28, 2015, 05:16:22 pm Yahoo Message Number: 157788If you're charging things like phones, tablets, and laptops, spend the extra dough and get a "pure sine wave" inverter. The less expensive ones don't produce "clean" alternating current -- these can cause minor to major problems with your (expensive) devices. For small appliances, check the label to see what the rated wattage is, and add that up for every appliance you intend to use at the same time, plus a safety margin. There's a big difference between a crockpot, for example, and a hair dryer. You'll also need to figure in your battery capacity keeping in mind that lead acid batteries, including AGMs, will suffer if you discharge them more than 50% semi-regularly. If you need more 120v power than your batteries can safely provide, you may as well just turn on the generator for long enough to do what you need.
Re: Inverter Choices Reply #3 – December 28, 2015, 08:42:16 pm Yahoo Message Number: 157801Lorna, If by portable you mean one that you can power from a 12v lighter, keep in mind that you're realistically limited to around 10 amps, or about120 watts. Portable pure sine inverters are rare, but the Samlex units seem to get consistently good reviews, plus AM Solar had one in stock which is a good sign in my opinion.Google PST-120-12 and PST-15S-12A and see what you think.Steve
Re: Inverter Choices Reply #4 – December 28, 2015, 08:58:36 pm Yahoo Message Number: 157803Lorna, First of all are you looking for a portable unit that will plug into the "cigarette style" 12V outlets or are looking for a unit hardwired to the batteries? If looking for a plug in unit, don't bother with one more than about 200 Watts. Those 12V outlets can usually only supply enough current for about 120 Watts (about 10A at 12VDC). For more power you really need to wire the inverter directly to the batteries. Depending on the size of inverter, you may need heavy power cables to the batteries. Cheaper inverters provide an electrical signal called "modified sine wave" (often abbreviated MSW). This is a different waveform than the smoothly changing sinusoidal (sine wave) you get from the utility companies. Many electrical motors and some electronics have problems running on MSW power. Most small "wall warts", or "bricks" use switching DC power converters and work ok on MSW power. Pure sine wave inverters are more expensive, but the price differential has been getting smaller. Most small electronic chargers and devices only need a few Watts of power. Even laptops tend to only use between 75-150 Watts of power. You really need to learn to figure out the power requirements of the devices you want to power. Basically forget anything that need to generate heat! Give us a list of some of the devices that you are interested in running off an inverter.Art
Re: Inverter Choices Reply #5 – December 28, 2015, 09:21:18 pm Yahoo Message Number: 157804Bob and the Four of You, thanks for the information and link. The article leans heavily towards pure sine wave inverters; I'm not interested in buying such an inverter. I'm looking for something portable, inexpensive and simple to power a dumb phone, a laptop, camera batteries, a portable printer and a mifi - no motorcycle batteries, crockpots or hair dryers!In almost 13 years of fulltiming, I've had three inverters over the years and a battery monitor from day one, and I'm trying to learn why one inverter of a certain wattage might be better (more efficient, last longer?) than another. Also, wouldn't a 1000 W or 3000W inverter be a larger drain on my house batteries?Lorna
Re: Inverter Choices Reply #6 – December 28, 2015, 09:24:32 pm Yahoo Message Number: 157805I have used this one with good results.http://www.bestconverter.com/SSW-350-12A-350-Watt-Pure-Sine-Inverter-with-700-Watt-Surge_p_487.html#.VoH7-a9HaK1I mounted it near the electrical panel and connected it to the battery terminals with about 12" of wire.Ed
Re: Inverter Choices Reply #7 – December 28, 2015, 10:00:28 pm Yahoo Message Number: 157807Lorna of the devices you listed, your laptop probably requires the most power., but likely under 100 Watts. For reference, my Canon battery charger is listed at about 20W and my Canon IP110 printer about 50W. A bigger inverter will consume proportionately more power in standby when not producing any AC power, but not nearly as much current as it would under its fully rated AC load. A really big inverter under load could pull as much as 200 Amps out of your batteries. At that rate, you'd deplete your batteries in about 1/2 hour from fully charged (assuming a pair of T-105s or equivalent). Size your inverter based on the biggest load it will need to support at one time.Art
Re: Inverter Choices Reply #8 – December 28, 2015, 10:11:08 pm Yahoo Message Number: 157809Lorna, I believe I have one like this. 200w and that's all you need for you needs. Art is correct.Chrishttp://www.amazon.com/Wagan-2402-5-Smart-Inverter-2-1Amps/dp/B00527ZAMY/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1451362095&sr=8-3&keywords=200+w+inverters As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: Inverter Choices Reply #9 – December 28, 2015, 10:13:21 pm Yahoo Message Number: 157810PS: Do a Google search for 200w inverters, read the reviews and get the one in that wattage range that gets the best reviews. The Wagan has worked well and lasted. I think I'm on my 3rd inverter. But the 200w ones are not that expensive.Chris
Re: Inverter Choices Reply #10 – December 28, 2015, 11:26:00 pm Yahoo Message Number: 157811Lorna, All things being equal a larger inverter will always draw more depending on efficiency. Like many things, you get what you pay for. My inverter is 14 years old, and not that efficient. If you keep an eye on your battery monitor you will be okay. I would rather have more capacity than I need because if you overload an inverter it will fail. With my solar setup I can run inverter all day and batteries rarely get down to 65 percent. Maybe there is a way to rig a rat cage with a running circle to a generator. I don't thing anyone has tried this. Putting a hungry cat next to the cage should provide motivation.bobmoore14 Just kidding
Re: Inverter Choices Reply #11 – December 29, 2015, 10:01:53 am Yahoo Message Number: 157813Lorna,I've used this one without any problems charging my various small electronic contraptions while on the road, including my laptop. I haven't worked it very hard, but so far have been pleased with it. There's some helpful information in the Q & A section and in the reviews on Amazon for using the device.Bill2003 -- 23'FLBESTEK 300W Dual 110V AC Outlets Power Inverter Car DC 12V to 110V AC Car Inverter with 3.1A Max Dual USB Charging Ports for Smartphones, Tablets and More
Re: Inverter Choices Reply #12 – December 29, 2015, 10:06:45 am Yahoo Message Number: 157814Lorna, I have a couple of thoughts. First, all inverters are somewhat inefficient, so I try never to do anything with an inverter that I can do with 12 V DC. I have 12 V powered chargers for my phone, my iPads, my MacBook, my camera batteries, my Ryobi power tools, and so on.If you do use a "modified sine wave" inverter--the most common and least expensive kind--to power a charger, you may find that the charger heats up more than usual. A "pure sine wave" inverter won't have this problem, but will cost more. I feel the extra cost is worthwhile.Second, bear in mind that the 12 V outlets in your rig can only supply about ten amps of current. That's 120 watts. In other words, even if you plug in a 300 W or 400 W inverter, you won't be able to get more than about 120 watts of AC power out of it, no matter what it's rated for. If you try to use an AC-powered appliance that draws more than a hundred watts or so, the inverter will probably complain that there's not enough voltage and shut itself off. To use more power than that, you'll need a direct wired connection from the inverter to your batteries.Andy Baird
Re: Inverter Choices Reply #13 – December 29, 2015, 10:24:16 am Yahoo Message Number: 157815I have 17 years experience in RVs and cars with using poor 100 W to good 1200W "modified sine wave" (ie, _not_ sine wave) inverters on hone, tablets, and laptops without any problems. I see no reason to expect any, either, because they are not running directly from the 120 VAC power; instead, the 120 VAC powers the device's charger, which produces a clean DC output to the device and it's battery. Nowadays, all my phones and tablets use USB charging, so they can be easily charged from $10-$20 12 volt USB chargers with up to 4 outputs. We use one of those while driving for my wife's iPad, and for any phone that needs charging.Small appliances are a different story, because they don't have a battery and charger to buffer the input. Generally... * "Heating" appliances, like a hair dryer, will have no trouble at all * Microwave ovens will run properly, but will not produce full power, requiring 20%-40% longer run times * Pump style espresso machines may have trouble starting the pump * TVs, from the CRT to LCD units, have run perfectly, along with the satellite receiver with it's DVR * Very rarely, audio equipment might have some noise in the sound (we had a cheap VCR that did that - the others had no problem) * Older, ~2 amp or more 12 volt chargers may not produce full rated charging current * the only down-side for sine inverters is cost and size Technical aspects aside, the additional cost for small sine inverters is small; however, for 1000+W units, it's substantial. Your call!Ericthefuofus wrote on 12/28/2015 3:16 PM:
Re: Inverter Choices Reply #14 – December 29, 2015, 10:30:33 am Yahoo Message Number: 157817Lorna, you say you're not interested in buying a pure sine wave inverter. May I ask why?"I'm looking for something portable, inexpensive and simple to power a dumb phone, a laptop, camera batteries, a portable printer and a mifi"Let's start at the end of your list and work backward. Every MiFi or Jetpack (cellular/Wi-Fi hotspot) I've owned--and I've owned three or four over the years--has come with a USB power cord. I've run all of them from 12 V USB adapters, widely available for under twenty bucks. (Avoid cheapies; choose a reliable brand such as Griffin).Your portable printer may require 120 V power. In this case I'd recommend a pure sine wave inverter. Is there a reason why you said you're not interested in buying that type?For camera batteries, I've been using Wasabi brand 12 V chargers and replacement batteries for many years with all my cameras. You can find them on Amazon; they're quite inexpensive and work well, in my experience.There are many brands of 12 V laptop chargers, but I've had good results using WeCharger brand adapters with my MacBook Pro. Their only drawback is that they are smooth-sided and tapered, and can gradually slip out of the 12 V outlet just enough to lose contact. But a strip or two of tape on the sides of the plug will increase the diameter and friction and cure that problem.I can just about guarantee that a 12 V charger for your dumbphone is available. Charging phones in cars is a universal need.Again, as others have said: for small chargers of the type you mentioned, an inverter should be your last resort. Instead, go with 12 V charging adapters whenever possible, and you'll save precious house battery power.Andy Baird
Re: Inverter Choices Reply #15 – December 29, 2015, 10:33:06 am Yahoo Message Number: 157818All inverters should shut down instead of failing; one that doesn't should be thrown away, as it is a potential hazard.Eric Greenwell [lifewithalazydazerv] wrote on 12/28/2015 9:25 PM:
Re: Inverter Choices Reply #16 – December 29, 2015, 11:02:49 am Yahoo Message Number: 157819"Lorna, you say you're not interested in buying a pure sine wave inverter. May I ask why?" Andy, I don't know Lorna's reasons, but modified-sine-wave inverters as a class tend to be cheaper and more efficient than pure sine-wave models. Most motorized devices these days, such as printers, actually use small DC motors of various types that rely on rectifying the AC input power before reducing and distributing the voltages. Also, rarely do they have low-frequency big-iron transformers that would heat up if not fed a pure sine wave. In general modern AC powered chargers likewise would have little trouble with their PWM circuitry, although older heavy bricks should not be used. One small, cheap inverter might fit Lorna's need without investing in new 12V appliances.Steve
Re: Inverter Choices Reply #17 – December 29, 2015, 11:26:57 am Yahoo Message Number: 157821I was about to ask if this would be a viable solution for Lorna, but I see Eric has already done it. I have about four of these little gems that I keep in various places for "emergencies", fully recharging them on a schedule, but I'm wondering if it would be better to just use them for this purpose. I am in the habit of recharging my electronic equipment the same way in the Lazy Daze as I do at home (AC outlet), but maybe that needs another "think". I use my iPhone and iPad more now, rather than relying totally on the computer for email, reading, and other such "light" uses.The last several notes that I have written to this list have not appeared in my incoming email, but, upon checking the host site, they appear there. Could someone let me know if this is seen in your incoming email? Thank you.Virtual hugs,Judie http://dorrieanne.wordpress.com
Re: Inverter Choices Reply #18 – December 29, 2015, 09:57:18 pm Yahoo Message Number: 157843Steve B, you are correct. After reading the generous responses here, I'm leaning towards a small, non pure sine wave inverter and think it would be most suitable for my needs. On the other hand "the other" Steve's recommendation for a portable Samlex pure sine wave inverter does bear looking into. Thanks!Although Andy's suggestion that I look into the slick and compact WeCharger for my Mac, it would be yet another piece of equipment in my barnyard, and it would hog the 12v port also needed to charge my old 3G MiFi that didn't come with a USB cable. But thanks Andy for making me aware of individual 12 v chargers and information about power availability.Chris, thanks for the Wagan link. While it appears suitable for my uses, one reviewer dissed it because it's noisy! Art, thanks also for the sizing information/reminder - exactly what I needed to know.Bob, Bill, Eric, Steve, Ed, et al, thanks for chiming in with information and recommendations. You've all been a big help. An inverter has always been a piece of equipment I've taken for granted so thanks all of you for the education.Lorna, Coarsegold (brrrrr!)
Re: Inverter Choices Reply #19 – December 30, 2015, 12:50:36 pm Yahoo Message Number: 157852LornaI usually buy small inverters (200-400-watts) at Costco They are inexpensive and have the best return policy I know of. None of your electronics require a pure-sine wave inverter, it's wasted moneyKnowing how your rig is wired, I assume you want to plug into an existing 12-volt outlet, at the dinette. You are limited in the amount of A/C power the can be produced, because the wring is too small for over 200-watts. Anymore power will require installing larger wires. Let me know what you plan on before your visit in March.BTW, my MacBook Pro charger is rated at 1.5-amps @120-VAC or equal to 180-watts, so don't undersize the inverter. Check the very small print on the charger body for your Macs requirements. You will need a magnifying glass.Larry
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