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Topic: might be buying my first LD! need some help. (Read 73 times) previous topic - next topic
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might be buying my first LD! need some help.
Yahoo Message Number: 157122
hello, I'm going to look at and possibly purchase a 1990 mid-bath 26.5' LD this weekend. I plan to have a mechanic come along with me for an inspection but I wanted to reach out to someone here to help me to determine if this even sounds like a good deal on the surface. I feel like it is.
 The seller is asking $9K. Is that fair? I was prepared to offer 7-8 but then the NADA website gave me a quote of $6500. So, I'm a bit confused in where I sgould be price-wise. You're input is ver much appreciated.
 Here are the details of the Lazy Daze I considering as per the owner;

1990 LazyDaze 27' Mid Bath Model 176" 88,000 Ford E350 460 ci V8 50 gallons fresh water capacity 40 gallons grey water 40 gallons black water (sewage) Onan 4000 Generator Solar Panel on roof powers auxiliary batteries Full Kitchen with Microwave, 4 Burner Gas Stove with Oven New Full Size Refrigerator/Freezer Full Bath King Size Bed in rear bedroom Queen Bed over car Twin Bed in dinette TV/DVD player with 6 headphones Swamp Cooler Gas Operated Central Heat A/C system Central Hydraulic Stabilizing system Trailer hitch Retractable awning on passenger side of coach Lots of storage and tinted windows that open up **5 tires need replacing **in dash A/C does not work.
Re: might be buying my first LD! need some help.
Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 157123
It sounds like the seller is pretty much in the ballpark with his price according to the used prices in the files section. Remember that most LD's are sold by private parties, and the sale price doesn't go into the NADA data base. Only the very few that are on dealer lots are in NADA, and those are often pretty rough.

Dick
Re: might be buying my first LD! need some help.
Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 157124
Some thoughts about the specs listed.  Minor details but: ... I think that should be a 3 burner stove with oven unless it has been swapped out.
... Also find the TV/DVD with 6 headphones strange, not impossible but strange.
... 40 gal each for the black and gray tanks seems off (high), but I could be wrong.

Look closely at seams on the roof, and for signs of water damage inside.  Look closely for abnormalities on the exterior of the aluminum skin and paint.  It is normal for the paint to fade but not normal for it to come off.  Many of us put tape on the roof seams, if you see it there that is a sign of care, but look at its condition.  Look at the condition of the sealant around the vents and openings.

We love our Mid Bath.  Just about to go on a Thanksgiving trip.

Good hunting, John

newmusecrew  wrote :...Here are the details of the Lazy Daze I considering as per the owner;

1990 LazyDaze 27' Mid Bath Model 176" 88,000 Ford E350 460 ci V8 50 gallons fresh water capacity 40 gallons grey water 40 gallons black water (sewage) Onan 4000 Generator Solar Panel on roof powers auxiliary batteries Full Kitchen with Microwave, 4 Burner Gas Stove with Oven New Full Size Refrigerator/Freezer Full Bath King Size Bed in rear bedroom Queen Bed over car Twin Bed in dinette TV/DVD player with 6 headphones Swamp Cooler Gas Operated Central Heat A/C system Central Hydraulic Stabilizing system Trailer hitch Retractable awning on passenger side of coach Lots of storage and tinted windows that open up **5 tires need replacing **in dash A/C does not work.
Currently: 2008 36' Tiffin Open Road
Previously: 2007 Mid Bath
Re: might be buying my first LD! need some help.
Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 157125
My 1989 22' MP has a 4 burner stove.
 As far as the price,  I paid $4500 for mine. The tires were serviceable, the cab AC was also out, and it needed a new water heater.
 After replacing tires, you are into the unit for 10k. In my eyes, there should be room to negotiate.

"johndacrema@... [lifewithalazydazerv]"  wrote:

Some thoughts about the specs listed.  Minor details but: ... I think that should be a 3 burner stove with oven unless it has been swapped out.
... Also find the TV/DVD with 6 headphones strange, not impossible but strange.
... 40 gal each for the black and gray tanks seems off (high), but I could be wrong.

Look closely at seams on the roof, and for signs of water damage inside.  Look closely for abnormalities on the exterior of the aluminum skin and paint.  It is normal for the paint to fade but not normal for it to come off.  Many of us put tape on the roof seams, if you see it there that is a sign of care, but look at its condition.  Look at the condition of the sealant around the vents and openings.

We love our Mid Bath.  Just about to go on a Thanksgiving trip.

Good hunting, John

newmusecrew  wrote :...Here are the details of the Lazy Daze I considering as per the owner;

1990 LazyDaze 27' Mid Bath Model 176" 88,000 Ford E350 460 ci V8 50 gallons fresh water capacity 40 gallons grey water 40 gallons black water (sewage) Onan 4000 Generator Solar Panel on roof powers auxiliary batteries Full Kitchen with Microwave, 4 Burner Gas Stove with Oven New Full Size Refrigerator/Freezer Full Bath King Size Bed in rear bedroom Queen Bed over car Twin Bed in dinette TV/DVD player with 6 headphones Swamp Cooler Gas Operated Central Heat A/C system Central Hydraulic Stabilizing system Trailer hitch Retractable awning on passenger side of coach Lots of storage and tinted windows that open up **5 tires need replacing **in dash A/C does not work.
1989 MP
Re: might be buying my first LD! need some help.
Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 157126
Tagging on to John's points: AFAIK, the grey and black tank capacities for a 1990 are both 24 gallons, not 40, as was posted in the OP's list. Also, is the model manufactured late enough in 1990 to have fuel injection and have the overcab *without* the front window in the overcab?

Do check very carefully for leaks and end cap separation. Check under the rig for any water damage around the rear bumper and the entry step; both areas have "exposed" wood.

A swamp cooler *and* AC? (Maybe someone can explain why this might be?)

Keep in mind that a 1990 MB was built on the E350 chassis with a 11500 pound gvwr; that "lots of storage" part can be deceiving. ;-)

Having a "mechanic" inspect the engine and "go" systems is a good idea, but the OP might want to to make sure that s/he knows how to evaluate the condition of the "appliances", i.e., generator (if this is a "4000", it was replaced; I am pretty sure that the OEM unit in a 1990 was an Emerald? Maybe the seller means that the power is 4000W?), refrigerator, furnace, water heater, water pump, stove, propane system, toilet, shower. Each should be run in front of the prospective buyer to show that the "part" is functional.

As ever, YMMV.

Joan
2003 TK has a new home
Re: might be buying my first LD! need some help.
Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 157127
Add $2000 for tires and A/C repair and this price is way over the market, especially at this time of the year. Good Luck, Mark
Re: might be buying my first LD! need some help.
Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 157128
the grey and black tank capacities for a 1990 are both 24 gallons, not 40

--- I meant 24 gallons *each*, not together; sorry for the lack of clarity. :-(

Joan
2003 TK has a new home
Re: might be buying my first LD! need some help.
Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 157129
I have a swamp cooler and AC on my 97TK. Swamp cooler runs on 12V and great for boon-docking without a generator and only solar in the dry desert.
1997 TK
Re: might be buying my first LD! need some help.
Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 157131
I looked at the spec sheet for a 1991 on Techsnoz; AC is listed as an option. The information from the spec sheet for a '91 - a 1990 spec sheet isn't on the site - might be of interest to the OP. One can subscribe to the Techsnoz message board to check out the spec sheets and many other files:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Techsnoz/info

Joan
2003 TK has a new home
Re: might be buying my first LD! need some help.
Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 157134
On Fords, the Fuel Injection transition was 1988 cabs. It isn't uncommon for production to use cabs from a previous model year (a 1990 titled motorhome with a 1989 cab) but it would be quite out of the ordinary to lag 3 years behind (1987 cab on a 1990), so safe bet this is FI.

My understanding is that 1990 was the first year for the overcab bunk window delete, to avoid problematic water leaks when driving in rainstorms (the equivalent of hurricane force winds pushing moisture in). My 1989 is still sealed well, knock on wood, but as the front curtain stays in place anyways, it doesn't add much to aesthetic to have a window there and if the seal fails, it can do massive amounts of structural damage.

LD's of the vintage came standard with a 12V Pla-Cool swamp cooler. A/C was optional and the unit was designed to install AC into a different vent opening. So, most LD's with roof AC (which is probably most) will also have the swamp cooler as well. Ours has both, and the swamp cooler is great and gets more use, as we are seldom plugged in. Worth noting on the swamp cooler is that the company is long gone and the only parts available are generic ones (like water lines and the pump motor). Our unit has significant plastic rot to the cover (common with this vintage) and we expect it to fail in the next few years. If the swamp cooler is not currently operational, think of yourself as lucky if you can manage to resurrect it.

It is worth noting that Ford Motorhomes of this vintage had notorious problems with breaking exhaust manifold bolts. The 460 engine is packed very tightly into the doghouse, and the manifolds don't get a lot of airflow around them to help manage temperatures. The manifolds expand as they get hot and pop the heads off the manifold bolts. Then the engine develops an exhaust leak which seems fairly innocuous (the exhaust note gets louder and more rattle-y, but engine performance does not seem otherwise effected). However, not correcting this problem  promptly can lead to warped exhaust valves (from cool air being drawn in through the leak when the engine is shut off) and can require a head rebuild.

Drilling out the broken exhaust manifold bolts will also generally require removal of the head, so this repair tends to run at least $1000, and double that if new valves are needed. Because it is a design issue, it is entirely possible to break bolts, spend $$$ on the repair, and break the bolts again on your next outing.

Solutions to this issue include swapping to exhaust headers instead of manifolds (the thinner metal and less restrictive exhaust flow means less heat), or changing driving habits- Once I was aware of the problem, when climbing mountain passes (heavy load for long periods of time) I would make sure I was running the engine at a relatively low RPM in 3rd gear and limit time that it was spent downshifted to second with the engine racing to a few seconds at a time- I would lower speed to limit load on the engine. I had no further problems. My father, on the other hand, could not make this adaptation and out of the 3 times he drove the motorhome into the mountains, he broke manifold bolts on two occasions.

You can find plenty of information on this issue by googling "Ford 460 broken exhaust bolt" or similar. This problem led me to prefer a Chevy cab or a newer Ford Cab with the 6.8 V10, but in my price range that wasn't realistic.

Another issue with the Fords of this vintage is that the suspension and steering are not great. Bump steer (movement of the steering wheel from hitting a pothole or other irregularity) is commonly reported, as is feeling pulled into another lane by a semi truck passing and the like. Some have theorized that part of the problem is that motorhomes of this vintage can easily get overloaded reflecting in poor driving manners. For years, as I had only driven Ford cabs, I felt this was just part of ownership. I have found my Chevy cab to be very surefooted and confident, with little roll or wallowing. Some attribute this to superior suspension in the Chevy's, but I suspect the 22' length of my current Chevy to be one big reason it feels so nimble vs rigs several feet longer.

-Jeff

1989 MP
Re: might be buying my first LD! need some help.
Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 157136
"Keep in mind that a 1990 MB was built on the E350 chassis with a 11500 pound gvwr; that "lots of storage" part can be deceiving. ;-)"

There is lots of storage in my 2001 E-350 and I have used all of it. I am at the weight limit normally, and above it when hauling my trailbike on the rear bumper.

It rides fairly stable after replacing the steering damper and having Bilstein shocks installed. I think the biggest drawback in an E-350 based LD is the smaller brakes vs. the E-450. I'll continue to look for a solution to that.

bobmoore14

High Sierras for a few...
Re: might be buying my first LD! need some help.
Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 157137
You've received a lot of good advice.  1990 makes the RV 25 years old.  At that age, maintenance and upkeep have more to do with condition and a fair price than anything else.  Go in with your eyes open and expect to spend thousands getting the rig in road-ready condition.  Tires alone will cost $1200+.
 Be aware of common problems like leaks around the cabover and the rear end caps.
 In the end, it's hard for anyone to give any opinion of the price without physically inspecting the condition.  A pristine well maintained 1990 could be worth 5x the value of a its neglected twin.  It all comes down to condition.

Rich '03 MB in NC
2003 MB
Re: might be buying my first LD! need some help.
Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 157138
thank you all for such great detailed support. I'm already getting a sense of the camaraderie alive in the LD community and I'm eager to climb aboard. If the rig I'm looking at this weekend isnt the one I'm going to be an LD owner for sure.
 Given all the great advice I'm thinking I will offer the seller $7K. Providing all else checks out. Ill keep you all posted. thanks again!
Re: might be buying my first LD! need some help.
Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 157139
My understanding is that 1990 was the first year for the overcab bunk window delete --- According to the "Changes by Year" chart

http://www.andybaird.com/travels/LD-guide-web/changes.htm#1990

the front overcab window was eliminated "mid-year". Since the actual build date of the 1990 in question wasn't mentioned, I thought that a potental buyer might want to verify whether this particular rig had a front overcab window or a solid front.

Another "note" on a change for this model from the chart listed above was "Switched from throttle body injection to electronic fuel injection."

Joan
2003 TK has a new home
Re: might be buying my first LD! need some help.
Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 157140
I agree with others that how the rig was maintained should have more to do with price than year manufactured. If the rig is in good shape with receipts to prove maint. was done it's worth a look. If there's any way to afford and upgrade to a 97 or later model with the V-10 I would do it. The 460 motor is 60's technology, very thirsty, and doesn't make as much power. IMO overheating is more of an issue with it. I used to have a Ford F250 4X4 with the 460. 7mpg got old real fast so I sold it. In my 2001 E-350 LD when not towing I have gotten up to 12mpg with around 10-11 being the norm. While the E-350 chassis has some things not  as good as the E-450 it weighs about 1000 lbs. less and runs a 4.11 rear end vs. a 4.56 gearing for the E-450. This translates into better mpg.

bobmoore14
Re: might be buying my first LD! need some help.
Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 157142
From personal experience, you might want to have the brakes checked too...

Pat The Pearl
The Pearl - 2000 31'
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most."
Re: might be buying my first LD! need some help.
Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 157143
thank you for the detailed information,  Jeff. What about possibly adding a hood scoop as a preemptive meaure to the heating and swelling?
Re: might be buying my first LD! need some help.
Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 157144
Until I inspect the rig I agree that there is no other way to truly determine the condition. The current owner states they are the second owner and have had the rig since 2011, putting 7K miles on it in that time. They state they have taken ver good care of it, servicing it annually,  tuning the generator several times, replacing the old fridge with a new one (in 2011) and wven keeping the carpet covered with painters plastic when it was used, stating the carpet is in excellent shape (which Ibfeel speaks to their care for the coach) They also mentioned they replaced the gas hose last year.
 there are some pictures of the rig at this link. that might lend to all the great advice I've been getting.
Re: might be buying my first LD! need some help.
Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 157146
The chassis build date on my 2003 is on a sticker on the driver's side door jamb; the LD delivery date is on a small "plaque" on outside of the rig behind the driver's door. I don't know where the dates might be on a 1990, but the seller could tell you (or a phot would show this, if the seller provided photos) if the rig has an overcab front window.

Joan
2003 TK has a new home
Re: might be buying my first LD! need some help.
Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 157148
Well, the first pre-emptive measure would be to take the doghouse off and eyeball the manifold bolts before you buy.

Or, if the motorhome has been sitting overnight (or long enough to cool all the way down) you can usually hear an exhaust manifold leak on initial start-up. Exhaust noises that sound really loud and rattle for the first few seconds but then quiet down are often at the manifold- when cold it leaks most, but the heat quickly causes the metal to expand enough to seal better and bring the noise down.

I don't think a hood scoop will do much, because that would add air at the top and the manifolds are buried with barely any space between them and the doghouse- like under 2".

I think the best method to prevent this issue is to just be aware of it. If you think of running the engine near WOT in 2nd gear as a timebomb scenario, you will back off the throttle. It is also kind of hard to not realize how hard you are pushing the engine because a 460 wide open near the top of its RPM range is LOUD.

If you wanted to actually take steps to fix the problem, get headers. You get some extra power, gain a little economy, and installing them costs about as much as one manifold bolt repair.

Similarly, if I had to do this repair, I would pay a bit extra and have exhaust headers installed at that time to buy the piece of mind.

As others have mentioned the 460 is damned thirsty, but aside from the manifold bolt issue and fuel consumption, it is a pretty solid mill. One thing about 1960's engine tech is that by the early 90's, they had 30 years to refine it, and generally that makes for a durable engine platform. I'm not the biggest proponent of Ford and Chevy's commitment to making reliable products, but after making millions of these respective engines, they worked the kinks out quite well. I think the exhaust manifold design issue is more about the engine lugging around much more in weight- in a typical van configuration I doubt this is that much of a problem.

-Jeff

1989 MP
Re: might be buying my first LD! need some help.
Reply #23 –
Yahoo Message Number: 157152
Something you might consider for the 460 is an inexpensive mod like a water radiator sprayer to keep things cooler when climbing big hills or hauling heavy loads in the heat.
I know someone that did this to their older LD with the Chevy 350. They said it made a big difference cooling things down when needed.

The V-10 cooling system is robust. I climbed a 5000 ft. pass in 104 degree heat. The temp gauge barely moved.

bobmoore14
Re: might be buying my first LD! need some help.
Reply #24 –
Yahoo Message Number: 157154
thanks Jeff. This is so helpful and I'm grateful for your help. If I buy the rig I feel like adding headers would be a smart preemptive step. Lots of articles out there about the engine heating amd swelling as you said.
 any chance you are near Auburn,  CA and qould be interested in letting me hire you for a few hours this saturday to help inspect? shot in the dark.