Fridge Protection May 24, 2015, 08:07:42 pm Yahoo Message Number: 152973What do you think: Too good to be true?ARPrv | RV Refrigerator | RV Fridge Control | Install by Cooling Unit | RV FireJim C
Re: Fridge Protection Reply #1 – May 24, 2015, 08:43:32 pm Yahoo Message Number: 152975Having viewed some RV fires caused by the absorption refrigerators I would be very interested to see if this device can provide worthwhile protection as claimed. However I am skeptical that a small aftermarket RV company has the R&D resources to design something better than OEM.bobmoore14
Re: Fridge Protection Reply #2 – May 24, 2015, 10:17:40 pm Yahoo Message Number: 152976It looks like good technology, saw it demonstrated at this years Escapade in Tucson. It used a temperature sensor to monitor the temperature of the boiler(as I recall) and shuts the gas/electric off if it gets too hot. This protects from the off level problem and might help with a fire. Jack now in Lordsburg, NM headed east tomorrow.
Re: Fridge Protection Reply #3 – May 24, 2015, 11:27:16 pm Yahoo Message Number: 152977"I am skeptical that a small aftermarket RV company has the R&D resources to design something better than OEM."I have a less optimistic point of view about the OEMS. From what I've seen over the years, Dometic and Norcold are in a race to see who can build products the cheapest way possible. For example, the 2000-vintage Norcold fridge installed in my first LD had metal door hinges and metal handles and latches. The same model Norcold fridge installed in my LD in 2013 had plastic hinges and latches instead. And you've all seen how cheaply made even the higher-end Dometic fridges are.* Thus it's not hard for me to believe that a third party such as ARPRV can do better, for those owners willing to pay a few extra bucks.I actually bought the ARPRV unit about six months ago, but got embroiled in other projects and have not yet installed it. (If my rig burns down tomorrow, you can say "I told you so." ;-) I've read the product description and installation instructions, and I think it's legit. If I ever get around to installing it, I'll post a report.* Ironically, I'm in love with the Dometic CoolFreeze CF-040 12 V refrigerator/freezer I recently bought for my car. It's a well-thought-out and well built product that works perfectly. But that's because unlike the absorption refrigerators we have in our RVs, this unit uses a Danfoss high-efficiency compressor to pump the heat out. It quickly reaches temperatures well below freezing, unlike the inexpensive thermoelectric coolers that are popular for cars, which can only get to 40° F. below the ambient temperature. Ice cream is rock hard when I get home from the supermarket!And if my Norcold ever fails, I figure this will be a good emergency backup--the spec sheet says it draws less than 4 amps at 12 volts on average, so I could run it on solar power with no difficulty. So Dometic can build a good product... if they're using somebody else's guts (in this case, Danfoss's).Andy Baird As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: Fridge Protection Reply #4 – May 25, 2015, 12:11:46 am Yahoo Message Number: 152978"I have a less optimistic point of view about the OEMS. From what I've seen over the years, Dometic and Norcold are in a race to see who can build products the cheapest way possible."Andy, I guess I take the Dometic Fridge in my unit for granted. It was replaced on warranty shortly before I bought the rig and has functioned perfectly for the last few years. I am interested in this Danforth compressor you spoke of. Do they have an RV fridge that will fit in the stock space? I have plenty of solar and would consider such a unit if my Dometic fails. Since I usually follow the sun it's no problem. Solar power is free since I have already made the investment. I don't like worrying about running out of propane when boondocking with only 8 gal storage out of my 10 gal tank.bobmoore14
Re: Fridge Protection Reply #5 – May 25, 2015, 01:51:55 am Yahoo Message Number: 152980"I am interested in this Danforth compressor you spoke of. Do they have an RV fridge that will fit in the stock space?"A number of companies make refrigerators and freezers using Danfoss compressor cooling units; I gather that they're popular in the boating community. I don't know whether there's an exact drop-in replacement for the Dometic and Norcold fridges commonly used in RVs, but I know that some RVers do use electric fridges based on Danfoss and similar compressors, as do many off-grid users such as owners of mountain cabins. A Google search on 'danfoss rv refrigerator' brings up a number of hits, so if you're interested, you couyld try researching that.Note that the Dometic CF-040 unit I mentioned has a capacity of 40 quarts, which is 1.34 cubic feet--far less than the 6 to 9 cubic feet of a standard RV fridge. Thus if you wanted the same capacity as your current fridge, you couldn't expect to get by on the 4 amps this chest unit uses.But I do believe a compressor refrigerators is generally more efficient than an absorption fridge of equivalent size, when running on 12 V or inverter power. A typical 6 cu. ft. RV fridge draws 30+ amps of 12 V DC when running on battery/inverter power. This is not an efficient way to make things cold.Compressor refrigerators have another advantage: they don't care about being off-level. And as far as I know, they never catch fire. :-)Andy Baird
Re: Fridge Protection Reply #6 – May 25, 2015, 02:07:21 am Yahoo Message Number: 152981I have a 12cf Danforth compressor driven fridge/freezer in my Foretravel.You can see photos of it on our website: www. LazyDazers.comIt was made by Sea Freeze of America www. SeaFreezeInc.com/custom.shtmlDave makes his fridges/freezers to order. So he can make one to fit your space like he did mine. Mine is an AC/DC version. I run it on the house batteries. No inverter needed. 1200 watts on the roof.best, paulcentercentercentercentercenter
Re: Fridge Protection Reply #7 – May 25, 2015, 03:50:14 am Yahoo Message Number: 152986"But I do believe a compressor refrigerators is generally more efficient than an absorption fridge of equivalent size, when running on 12 V or inverter power. A typical 6 cu. ft. RV fridge draws 30+ amps of 12 V DC when running on battery/inverter power. This is not an efficient way to make things cold."Our 1983 LD had a 3-way Dometic refrigerator, It drew 23 amps of 12-volt power. If you forgot to switch it to propane, it would kill the house battery in about 6 hours.Larry
Re: Fridge Protection Reply #8 – May 25, 2015, 04:04:53 am Yahoo Message Number: 152987"What do you think: Too good to be true?"Well, if you make the assumption that boiler overheating is the cause of refrigerator failure, it would seem to be true. Thing is, who knows if this the cause or something else Dometic did or didn't do.I can't see any harm this device would cause but I'm not sure if it would be of help either. Most RV refrigerators last ten years or more, maybe somewhat less for full timers. Failures don't seem to be that common (or people do not talk about it) and I have never known anyone who had a refrigerator fire. Installing a smoke detector, in the refrigerator compartment, might be a good idea, for those who are concerned.Larry
Re: Fridge Protection Reply #9 – May 25, 2015, 04:17:43 am Yahoo Message Number: 152988"I have a 12cf Danforth compressor driven fridge/freezer in my Foretravel. It was made by Sea Freeze of America http://www.seafreezeinc.com/custom.shtml Refrigerator/freezers, on large boats, have used Danforth compressors for years but part of the efficiency is how the refrigerators are constructed. Big cruising boats have exceptionally well insulated ice boxes, with Styrofoam walls up to a foot thick and well sealed doors, very unlike our beloved Dometics.If our LD's Dometics were built this way, propane consumption would be much lower. The rub is where do you have the room for the extra insulation in a Lazy Daze? As for switching to a Danforth-based refrigerator, they are already being used in RVs. Some DPs are now all-electric, so propane isn't an option. I'm still trying to wrap my head around all electric RVs, they must have very quiet generators, for boondocking, plus huge battery banks, or stay in RV parks.Using a compressor refrigerator in a LD is going to take a bit of research on the actual power usage vs.how much power your solar system is capable of producing. It is going to require a full roof of panels to do so in the short days of winter and probably in the hot days of summer. That's going to be tough job for smaller RVs, with limited roof space. Adding extra batteries is also going to be required plus a general upgrading of the entire primary electrical system. Besides the electrical need, the compressor refrigerator needs a place to house the compressor, condenser coil and fan. This could be an very expensive undertaking.Sailboats often run a generator everyday, for an hour or two, to charge the batteries. This is an option for RVs if the available solar cannot keep up. Some sailboats have the refrigerator's compressor connected directly to the engine, producing large amounts of cooling, which is used to freeze a brine. The frozen brine keeps the contents cool during the rest of the day. Large commercial facilities use a similar method, buying cheap power at night, freezing large pools of brine, which provide cooling during the daytime.Now if and when inexpensive propane fuel cells become available, compressor refrigerators would become more appealing.Right now, it's hard to beat the simplicity and efficiency of a propane RV refrigerator, just keep the fire extinguisher handy.Larry
Re: Fridge Protection - Don't count on it Reply #10 – May 25, 2015, 05:07:32 am Yahoo Message Number: 152989I believe nothing can make those absorption refrigerators safer, except that they be better made with better products. Our 40-foot Country Coach would attest to that if it could speak. Last I saw, it was being towed out our driveway to salvage.In our case, the caustic chemicals leaked through a weak place in the tubing and likely dissolved the wiring on the bottom of the wooden compartment and that started the fire. The unit was being powered by 50-amp electricity at the time. I do not believe this new process or whatever it is would have made any difference whatsoever. I also believe the older refrigerators are safer than the newer ones. Our Norcold torch was installed in 2004, so likely was manufactured with Chinese metal tubing. Prior to 2000, maybe not...We were fortunate to have been in the house at the time and were not even exposed to the chemicals prior to the fire. We also were fortunate that the RV never fit in our 35-foot RV garage....I chose our LD 27RB because of the three huge windows and three doors between me and that Dometic refrigerator. If a safer fridge came along to fit that space, I would trade out in a minute. As it is, I keep a second and larger extinguisher handy and installed an ion-sensing alarm in addition to the already provided alarms.That's my opinion and experience. s/Terry Apple
Re: Fridge Protection Reply #12 – May 25, 2015, 09:58:27 am Yahoo Message Number: 152992Well, my Sea Freeze does very well with much less than a foot of insulation. I defrost over night (compressor runs less) and the temp goes up very little. Sea Freeze is very aware of the need for good insulation.In my case I have the Danfoss off the fridge to make it more accessible for maintenance. Its only connection to the fridge is tubing.Find the part on Dave's website where he discusses his cold plate design. The tubing in the cold plates he makes has a smaller diameter that increases the efficiency compared to most cold plates on the market.I do know the dinette seat in my RB held 2 Lifeline 8D's in the seat opposite the factory battery very comfortably, because I had them installed there.Keep in mind that Sea Freeze main business is to sea going vessels.But there is the odd case. Dave (the owner) told me of the time Boeing was spending $25,000 a month to temper wings with dry ice. Dave built them a freezer that holds an entire wing.As always, YMMVbest, paulcentercentercentercentercenter
Re: Fridge Protection Reply #13 – May 25, 2015, 10:07:56 am Yahoo Message Number: 152993My Sea Freeze averages about 6 amps running on 12v.Right now the whole house drawing 10 amps. And the Danfoss is running.best, paulcentercentercentercentercenter
Re: Fridge Protection Reply #14 – May 25, 2015, 12:33:15 pm Yahoo Message Number: 152996We have been fulltiming in our 06 now for close to 7 years. I certainly don't know what causes them to leak and given the age of ours not sure that it would change anything in terms of its future failure date.A friend, and fulltimer, in an 07 had hers fail this past January and she is obsessive about leveling, as we are.Jim C
Re: Fridge Protection Reply #15 – May 25, 2015, 01:28:01 pm Yahoo Message Number: 153002For the record, folks... it's Danfoss, not Danforth. I only bring this up because if you search for 'danforth refrigerators', you won't find any useful results.Andy Baird
Re: Fridge Protection Reply #16 – May 25, 2015, 01:51:02 pm Yahoo Message Number: 153004"I certainly don't know what causes them to leak..."By most accounts, it's thin-walled tubing and (in some cases) substandard welds, stressed by repeated thermal cycling, leading to cracks or weld failure."... and given the age of ours not sure that it would change anything in terms of its future failure date."The main purpose of the ARPRV unit is not to prevent refrigerator failure, although it may somewhat reduce its probability. It is to prevent a failure from burning down your coach, as has happened to a number of RVers.Andy Baird
Re: Fridge Protection Reply #17 – May 25, 2015, 05:00:09 pm Yahoo Message Number: 153007"For the record, folks... it's Danfoss, not Danforth."I think I was the one that propagated this error. Have always been terrible with names. I stand corrected.Hope everyone has an enjoyable Memorial Day. This day has special meaning for us Vets. Peace and goodwill to all.bobmoore14Pahrump, NV. Escapees Park
Re: Fridge Protection Reply #18 – May 25, 2015, 05:02:16 pm Yahoo Message Number: 153008Failures of Norcolds and Dometics in the diesel pusher community seem pretty common, as do fires. For the latter reason, I changed out my perfectly-functioning Norcold for a nice Whirlpool rez reefer a couple years back and LOVE it. Had to switch to a PSW inverter so as not to offend its electronics, and that was a good move in its own right. As to all-electric RVs: generally they do have the 10kW diesel gennies and a bank of six (or eight) 6v house batts. My coach has propane but with the fridge converted, it's rarely used - for the two furnaces when it's too cold for the rooftop HVACs, for the stove burners (which we almost never use) and for a hot water booster (we usually use the 110v heater). For boondocking, I have my 7.5kW on an automatic genstart system feeding just four 6v house batts. Works for us, though six would be nice.Gary Allen 2007 Phaeton 40QDH/Freightliner /Cat C7 Williamsburg VA (now in greater New Orleans) "Life in the Bus Lane" 6
Re: Fridge Protection - Don't count on it Reply #19 – May 25, 2015, 06:45:16 pm Yahoo Message Number: 153011If you want real fridge fire protection go to the compressor fridge. Next best is fire protection from: http://www.firefightproducts.com/Fire_Fight_Supplemental_Hal.html1a Re: Fridge Protection - Don't count on it Mon May 25, 2015 2:07 am (PDT) . Posted by: I believe nothing can make those absorption refrigerators safer, except that they be better made with better products. Our 40-foot Country Coach would attest to that if it could speak. Last I saw, it was being towed out our driveway to salvage. In our case, the caustic chemicals leaked through a weak place in the tubing and likely dissolved the wiring on the bottom of the wooden compartment and that started the fire. The unit was being powered by 50-amp electricity at the time. I do not believe this new process or whatever it is would have made any difference whatsoever. I also believe the older refrigerators are safer than the newer ones. Our Norcold torch was installed in 2004, so likely was manufactured with Chinese metal tubing. Prior to 2000, maybe not... We were fortunate to have been in the house at the time and were not even exposed to the chemicals prior to the fire. We also were fortunate that the RV never fit in our 35-foot RV garage....
Re: Fridge Protection Reply #20 – June 30, 2015, 11:18:00 am Yahoo Message Number: 153673Just a quick followup to an earlier message (#152977) in which I mentioned the Dometic CF-040 refrigerator that I now carry in my car: remember how I said that the widely sold Koolatron-type thermoelectric coolers can only get down to 40° F. below whatever the ambient temperature happens to be, while the compressor-based Dometic can get really cold?Well, yesterday was a good example. When I opened the car yesterday afternoon, it was 105° F. outside (this is Phoenix, mind you) and 118° inside the fridge. (I use a remote-reading "Ice Warner" thermometer to keep an eye on it.)But as soon as I started the engine, powering up the 12 V-powered fridge, its temperature started to drop rapidly. After an hour of driving around town, the fridge was at 20°. If that had been a thermoelectric cooler, it would never have gotten much below 80°.You can guess which one I'd rather bring home my groceries in! Yes, the CF-040 cost about three times as much as an equivalent-sized Koolatron, but when you're in a hot climate and you really need cold... well, you get what you pay for. :-)Andy Baird As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: Fridge Protection Reply #21 – June 30, 2015, 11:42:27 am Yahoo Message Number: 153674Andy, How many amps does that cooler draw? I would like something to keep my drinks and lunch cold during off-road excursions in my Jeep. Getting ice for my chest can be hard to come by sometimes. Heading to CA. coast soon, it was 105 degrees here in Pahrump, NV. yesterday. Thankfully my LD's A.C. was replaced last year and works great.bobmoore14
Re: Fridge Protection Reply #22 – July 01, 2015, 11:00:11 am Yahoo Message Number: 153682Gee guys. I feel so bad for all of you with your heat concerns! We are at a roaring 64° here in central pa. With rain. Sandy
Re: Fridge Protection Reply #23 – July 01, 2015, 02:48:05 pm Yahoo Message Number: 153688"How many amps does that cooler draw?"Dometic's spec sheet says it averages 3.75 amps or 45 watts. I've measured from 2 to 6 amps instantaneous power draw, but 3 or 4 amps overall sounds about right. Of course like any cooling device, in hotter weather it will work harder and use more power.Andy Baird
Re: Fridge Protection Reply #24 – July 01, 2015, 03:07:56 pm Yahoo Message Number: 153690Andy, Thank you. My Jeeps accessory outlet will handle that. Larry recently installed an Optima AGM battery in it so I'm ready to rock, even with all the other electronic goodies. Cold beer or iced tea on board, sounds good to me.bobmoore14
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