Trojan Reliant AGM Battery March 28, 2015, 02:12:52 am Yahoo Message Number: 151872I have ordered 4 of the new Trojan Reliant AGM batteries. I ordered the T105 AGM battery. Sound familiar??? It's very similar in size to the lead acid T105. New batteries should be here on Monday.I thought these batteries were fairly new, but found out from the dealer that they had only been out a few months and they didn't have any in stock. I looked up the media intro and found it on Trojan's Facebook page.The battery was introduced on Dec 30, 2014 and this is the media note.Trojan Battery Company is excited to introduce Reliant™ AGM with C-Max Technology™, the industry's first full line of U.S.-made, true deep-cycle non-spillable batteries. Attached is an updated price list containing the pricing for these new products which will be available for order on January 15, 2015. While other companies may offer AGM batteries, no other company offers a true deep cycling AGM product. Reliant AGM maximizes sustained performance and increases total energy output to meet demanding deep-cycling requirements in Trojan's wide range of market applications. With superior product performance, competitive pricing, short lead times and a highly trained global technical support team, you can rely on Trojan to support your sales efforts. There's a new direction in AGM - Reliant AGM with C-Max Technology.There are sub-links on the webpage to follow for more info.Reliant T105-AGM | Trojan Battery CompanyIt appears that Trojan has built a better mouse trap with their AGMs called C-Max Technology. That means it's bigger better faster than the old version and they're going to gouge you for lotsa money. Only time will answer the quality question. I've got lotsa fingers crossed.I had problems with my Lifetime batteries and that was a big disappointment. But now with another $1200 plus in hand, I'm ready to try again with a new version of the old reliable T105.I had lead acid T105 prior to buying the Lifetime AGM and was very happy with them. I just needed more capacity and that meant AGM because 2 of the batteries went inside the coach. AGM avoids the outgassing problem.Has anyone else bought the new Reliant AGM batteries??? Or are you waiting for some other crazy sucker to pay the money and do the experiment???Crazy SD Bob
Re: Trojan Reliant AGM Battery Reply #1 – March 28, 2015, 12:33:26 pm Yahoo Message Number: 151873"Has anyone else bought the new Reliant AGM batteries??? Or are you waiting for some other crazy sucker to pay the money and do the experiment???"Crazy SD BobSomeone has to be the guinea pig. Maybe you are the only one nuts enough to try...not really. Trojan is an internationally known battery manufacturer that build batteries for huge range of applications. I would feel confident buying and using them. I bought hundreds of various Trojan batteries, back when I was employed, they proved themselves to be a superior manufacturer, compared to other battery builders.Your challenge now is to get the charge rates up and to keep the float voltage in the proper range. Let's hope this work so You and Andrea can hit the road. Keep us notified.Larry
Re: Trojan Reliant AGM Battery Reply #2 – March 28, 2015, 02:58:42 pm Yahoo Message Number: 151876The following link is a video on Trojan's C-Max Technology.Trojan Tips - Reliant™ AGM with C-Max TechnologySD Bob
Re: Trojan Reliant AGM Battery Reply #3 – March 28, 2015, 07:37:41 pm Yahoo Message Number: 151891Entirely your biz BUT I would never, ever leave those braces and supports out. I would replace them NOW and do my best to camouflage the bolts. Your decision to listen to the vinyl installer may turn out to be a very BIG mistake. I strongly suggest you talk to Vincent about it, soon. They decided to take out the metal strips in the bedroom and see what we thought. After much pushing on the bed and wall we all decided to leave them off and hopeit doesn't cause any problems. When Jim returned he wasn't sure that was the right thing to do, but I feel that Lazy Daze tends to use overkill in their construction methods, so hopefully the bed will not move, nor will the wall come down. Guess that remains to be seen when we actually drive down the road the next time!
Re: Trojan Reliant AGM Battery Reply #4 – March 28, 2015, 09:00:19 pm Yahoo Message Number: 151895"It appears that Trojan has built a better mouse trap with their AGMs called C-Max Technology."It appears to me that Trojan has built a better advertising slogan. Whether there is any actual advantage remains to be seen. And when they make the obviously fallacious claim that "no other company offers a true deep cycling AGM product," I smell some fairly ripe B.S.Judging by the list of features on Trojan's Advanced Technology page, it sounds as if they're just playing catch-up with Concorde, who already have a proprietary paste formula, unique separator composition, polymer case design, and "manufacturing excellence." But Trojan, unlike Concorde, doesn't have a reputation as an AGM maker, so they've cooked up this catchy-sounding but meaningless term "C-Max" to make it sound as if they have something new.."I'm ready to try again with a new version of the old reliable T105."An AGM battery with a "T105" label slapped on it is not even remotely like a flooded-cell T105 internally--it's not a new version of an old reliable product. It may be better; it may not. It could even be buggy, as new products sometimes are.You've said that you "had problems with my Lifetime [sic] batteries" and now you want to switch to Trojan AGMs. OK, but before making that jump, I'd want to know exactly why the Lifeline AGMs had problems.In my own case, for example, an antiquated, malfunctioning solar controller was to blame. It would have killed a set of Trojan AGMs just as surely as it killed my Lifeline AGMs. And as has been mentioned here recently, a stock Parallax 7345 converter/charger or Heliotrope HPV-22 solar controller could damage any AGM batteries by overcharging them.I'm not saying that all Concorde AGM batteries are perfect. My point is that until you know exactly why yours proved to be short-lived, switching brands could just result in the same scenario playing out again.Andy Baird
Re: Trojan Reliant AGM Battery Reply #5 – March 28, 2015, 11:09:59 pm Yahoo Message Number: 151899"It appears that Trojan has built a better mouse trap with their AGMs called C-Max Technology.""It appears to me that Trojan has built a better advertising slogan. Whether there is any actual advantage remains to be seen."I love it when people can see thru the advertising B.S. A friend used to tell me that s and advice mean nothing. It's science and education where power lies. The only thing that contains more B.S. than s are some politicians, but I'll stop there.My 4 year old Trojan T-145's have served me well. Think I'll stick with them.bobmoore14
Re: Trojan Reliant AGM Battery Reply #6 – March 29, 2015, 03:12:19 am Yahoo Message Number: 151904I guess my tongue in cheek endorsement of Trojan's new technology didn't register.Meanwhile . . .I have discussed with Larry and Steve for hours as to the potential cause of my battery problem. I must say that I value highly both Larry and Steve's opinions. We have reached a unanimous opinion of the course of action to be taken. The first step is to replace the batteries and begin a concentrated monitoring of the new batteries. Voltages and amps input and output will be recorded hourly during the testing phase. Second will be a stress test discharging about 25% of capacity and monitoring the recharge process with the generator and then with household AC. If necessary a 50% stress test will possibly be undertaken if the 25% test doesn't answer all our questions.I have always embraced change (especially technological change). Sometimes one buys a clinker and other times you can turn up gold. Only the future will answer the question of whether I've bought a clinker or bought the next generation AGM.Steve, Larry and myself are not novices in RV electronics or batteries. We certainly don't claim to know everything, but I believe that we know enough between us to generate a good solution.Trojan has a highly regarded reputation. I think most of this group agrees with that statement as the Trojan lead acid is probably the dominant battery used in Lazy Dazes.The Trojan AGM called T105 is probably more of a reference to size and similar amp capacity. The thought being that one could trade out a lead acid T105 for the new AGM.A nice feature of the new Trojans is they come with a 2 year warranty. Of course that probably covers everything except battery failure.I won't bother to go into the details of what the potential problem(s) may be for my battery failure other than to say my solar controller is working perfectly. I monitored it throughly over several days and it is the controller recommended by AMSolar. The potential problem could be complex, but Steve, Larry and myself favor the simplest problem as being the likely culprit.SD Bob
Re: Trojan Reliant AGM Battery Reply #7 – March 29, 2015, 11:39:15 am Yahoo Message Number: 151908"It appears that Trojan has built a better mouse trap with their AGMs called C-Max Technology." "It appears to me that Trojan has built a better advertising slogan. Whether there is any actual advantage remains to be seen."I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Trojan's new AGM. The technology isn't new and Trojan is a reputable company that primarily serves the commercial/industrial user, who demand results, not hype. In the past I worked with their customer engineers specing batteries for various large battery-powered machines, such as man lifts (think 4000-amp/hr batteries). Their service and expertise was outstanding. Trojan isn't a fly by night company, it's a premier battery company in the US.Larry
Re: Trojan Reliant AGM Battery Reply #8 – March 29, 2015, 01:22:51 pm Yahoo Message Number: 151919Thx for the description of your data-gathering plan. Please keep us apprised of your process--I've got lots to learn & appreciate those who share on this site.
Re: Trojan Reliant AGM Battery Reply #9 – March 30, 2015, 12:36:38 am Yahoo Message Number: 151942"I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Trojan's new AGM."Oh, I know Trojan is a well-established company, and the chances are that their new AGM batteries are fine. My point was that there's no evidence so far that they represent a breakthrough, as claimed. So far, all I see is advertising puffery. Only time (and comparative testing, if anybody has the means to do it) will tell whether Trojan's "C Max Technology" is anything more than a cute slogan.Andy Baird
Re: Trojan Reliant AGM Battery Reply #10 – March 30, 2015, 04:08:21 am Yahoo Message Number: 151945" My point was that there's no evidence so far that they represent a breakthrough, as claimed. So far, all I see is advertising puffery. Only time (and comparative testing, if anybody has the means to do it) will tell whether Trojan's "C Max Technology" is anything more than a cute slogan."AndyTrue, time will tell. After reading most of the available online literature, it shows that Trojan has aimed their new AGMs at the industrial/commercial world, a world where large users keep detailed records and determined the cost and reliability of various batteries. I would assume there was a bit of real world testing before these new AGMs were released for sale into this watchful market. Considering how large the market is and how much of it belongs to Trojan, it would be foolish to make claims of superiority without being able to deliver. They are the go-to company for industrial users. Time will tell.As to AGMs, I have heard of so many failures in the last few years that I will not recommend them except for interior mounting. There is room under the frame for a minimum of four T-105s and might be a better way for many to go. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/sets/72157602104740457/show With a remote watering system, battery maintenance is very easy and replacement is half the price of AGMs. The T-105's conventional liquid electrolyte chemistry is tolerant of moderate over-charging, where AGMs are very easy to kill. All it takes is a converter or solar controller improperly set for AGMs, a seemingly common occurrence.Larry
Re: Trojan Reliant AGM Battery Reply #11 – March 30, 2015, 11:17:27 am Yahoo Message Number: 151948Part of the problem with product changes and new products is that to stay at the forefront and acquire market share, a company is unlikely to do longer time service life testing unless there's a way to do so in an accelerated manner. Thus some products hit the market so the consumer gets to do that part of the testing.Concord, a respected name in batteries, sells aircraft batteries. Maybe 15 years ago they marketed a "recombinant" sealed battery for light aircraft. I guess recombinant batteries can be either gel or absorbed glass mat (AGM), and I'm not sure of the details on this particular effort. What I do know is it didn't last a year. It's warranty replacement lasted less than two years - at which point I gave up and went back to a Gill flooded battery in my Mooney, which typically lasts 5 years or so.So for early adopters of new products, even from solid companies, there's risk being near the leading edge of the cutting edge.bumper
Re: Trojan Reliant AGM Battery Reply #12 – March 30, 2015, 12:36:17 pm Yahoo Message Number: 151951Quote So for early adopters of new products, even from solid companies, there's risk being near the leading edge of the cutting edge. Having worked for a very famous and very reputable company I can second this. Even we at times would release a product that would fall flat on its face. Early adopters are also early 'real' world testers. We always refunded and replaced our 'upgraded' products or (smile) called the mistakes new features. I know nothing about this new Trojan product but I do know that there is new battery technology in use today that will blow away the batteries we are using today. What I'm talking about is the battery systems used on the new Boeing 777. It's had some birthing pains but it's here to stay. As the price drops we will be seeing it more and more. Some of us are using it in our emergency battery starters packages.Glen
Re: Trojan Reliant AGM Battery Reply #13 – March 30, 2015, 01:05:48 pm Yahoo Message Number: 151953I know nothing about this new Trojan product but I do know that there is new battery technology in use today that will blow away the batteries we are using today. What I'm talking about is the battery systems used on the new Boeing 777. It's had some birthing pains but it's here to stay. As the price drops we will be seeing it more and more. Some of us are using it in our emergency battery starters packages.GlenGlen Perhaps you are referring to the Boeing 787 batteries. The 777 uses NiCd batteries, a fairly old technology. The 787 uses lithium-ion batteries, still not exactly brand new technology, but newer. The 787 had early battery problems which seem to have been resolved. IMO Li-ion RV batteries are just around the corner, if cost goes down some. Tom
Re: Trojan Reliant AGM Battery Reply #14 – March 30, 2015, 01:25:54 pm Yahoo Message Number: 151954"IMO Li-ion RV batteries are just around the corner, if cost goes down some" ----. An interesting read of one experience (see also the Feb., 2015 update) :Lithium Ion Batteries for RV House SystemsJoan
Re: Trojan Reliant AGM Battery Reply #15 – March 30, 2015, 01:49:02 pm Yahoo Message Number: 151955"IMO Li-ion RV batteries are just around the corner, if cost goes down some"They are already here, at a cost. http://www.amsolar.com/home/amr/page_327_130/400_amp-hour_lithium_battery.html http://www.starlightsolarstore.com/Starlight_Solar/RV_Lithium_Battery.htmlThe cost of lithium batteries has not come down much over the past few years. Too much demand from the auto industry but with the building of several lithium battery manufacturing plants by the auto manufacturers should lead to the lowering of cost eventually. Lithium batteries require sophisticated charging electronics, very different than what we are accustomed to. This alone will help keep the cost higher than using lead-acid or AGMs.It's good to see AM Solar experimenting with them. Many major RV builders are also experimenting with them, so we should see them installed, as options, in upper end RVs in the near future.Larry
Re: Trojan Reliant AGM Battery Reply #16 – March 30, 2015, 01:53:39 pm Yahoo Message Number: 151956LOL Bob, and Ditto on last statement
Re: Trojan Reliant AGM Battery Reply #17 – March 30, 2015, 02:08:47 pm Yahoo Message Number: 151958"IMO Li-ion RV batteries are just around the corner, if cost goes down some"I hope they figure out how to keep these batteries from catching on fire or exploding. I used to have a radio controlled mini-monster truck with twin electric motors run off Lithium batteries. It was fast, quiet, and dangerous. The batteries destroyed themselves why being charged. Not sure what I did wrong but I have seen it happen to others.My new R.C. truck runs off race fuel %40 nitro. Some kids never grow up. When camped inn the desert it's fun to play with. I had a dog chase it once till it ran out of fuel. My stomach still hurts from laughing.bobmoore14
Re: Trojan Reliant AGM Battery Reply #18 – March 30, 2015, 02:11:10 pm Yahoo Message Number: 151959It's good to see AM Solar experimenting with them. Many major RV builders are also experimenting with them, so we should see them installed, as options, in upper end RVs in the near future. Larry
Re: Trojan Reliant AGM Battery Reply #19 – March 30, 2015, 02:15:13 pm Yahoo Message Number: 151960I've got lithium lust.SD Bob
Re: Trojan Reliant AGM Battery Reply #20 – March 30, 2015, 02:25:07 pm Yahoo Message Number: 151961Actually I was referring to lithium sulfur batteries. I know this is a small distance from RV's but these batteries are being used in drones. They are very fast charging. They can be recharged from discharged to fully charged in seconds.http://phys.org/news/2014-12-future-batteries-lithium-sulfur-graphene-wrapper.htmlThis link is on the outskirts of science but it can of gives you idea were this stuff is heading.Glen
Re: Trojan Reliant AGM Battery Reply #21 – March 30, 2015, 02:28:56 pm Yahoo Message Number: 151962That's very strange....the 2nd paragraph of my last posting did not get sent. Here it is again:Yeah, I doubt people will be retrofitting Li-ion batteries in RVs due to cost of changing the charging systems. The technology has real potential though. I carry a small Li-ion emergency starting battery. It is amazing how this small object weighing a little more than one pound can provide the approximately 400 Amps required to start the Ford V10. But it can, I have tried it several times. No more jumper cables for me. TomYeah, I doubt people will be retrofitting Li-ion batteries in RVs due to cost of changing the charging systems. The technology has real potential though. I carry a small Li-ion emergency starting battery. It is amazing how this small object weighing a little more than one pound can provide the approximately 400 Amps required to start the Ford V10. But it can, I have tried it several times. No more jumper cables for me. TomIt's good to see AM Solar experimenting with them. Many major RV builders are also experimenting with them, so we should see them installed, as options, in upper end RVs in the near future. Larry
Re: Trojan Reliant AGM Battery Reply #22 – March 30, 2015, 02:31:15 pm Yahoo Message Number: 151963Quote QuoteI hope they figure out how to keep these batteries from catching on fire or exploding. I used to have a radio controlled mini-monster truck with twin electric motors run off Lithium batteries. It was fast, quiet, and dangerous. The batteries destroyed themselves why being charged. Not sure what I did wrong but I have seen it happen to others. Actually this can happen to any type of battery if you overcharged at a very fast rate of speed. This problem is kind of solved with the Lithium Sulfur battery. The Lithium Sulfur battery in theory could be recharged completely at a Red Light. You could plug in while waiting and be completely recharged before its turns green.Glen
Re: Trojan Reliant AGM Battery Reply #23 – March 30, 2015, 02:55:23 pm Yahoo Message Number: 151965Attached is a link to a blog by a couple that built, installed, and have since been using a Lithium Iron Phosphate (aka LFP aka LiFePO4) battery system in their bus conversion 3.5 years ago. Detailed and interesting information. http://preview.tinyurl.com/netn27kCharles
Re: Trojan Reliant AGM Battery Reply #24 – March 30, 2015, 03:01:08 pm Yahoo Message Number: 151967"I hope they figure out how to keep these batteries from catching on fire or exploding."The lithium polymer batteries used in R/C models such as your mini-monster truck are different from the lithium-ion batteries we're talking about for RV use.While any device that stores a large amount of energy in a small space (including your rig's gas tank) can be a fire hazard if it's damaged, by most accounts lithium-polymer batteries are more prone to sudden failure than larger lithium-ion batteries such as those the Technomads and AM Solar are testing. I don't know whether this is because the Li-poly batteries are inherently more prone to internal shorts, or because they are inexpensively made for use in toys, but there seems to be general agreement that they're much more likely to fail catastrophically.I look forward to the time when lithium-ion batteries are well understood and reliable enough to be a solid replacement for our present lead-acid batteries. As others have pointed out, they will require different, more sophisticated, and inevitably more expensive charging systems, but the gain in power and the reduction in weight will make it worthwhile for many of us.Charging systems won't be the only issue, however. Because both Li-ion and Li-poly batteries have extremely low internal resistance, they can unleash almost all of their stored energy in a very brief time. That's where the reported Li-poly fires and explosions come from. This fact makes proper use of fuses and circuit breakers absolutely crucial. From what I've seen of RV wiring, most current RVs would not be safe with a lithium-battery makeover, unless it included substantially beefed-up circuit protection.In short, lithium-ion technology has great promise, but the RV industry is going to have to become a whole lot more meticulous in designing and building 12 V electrical systems before it's safe to use.Andy Baird
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