Tankless Water Heater December 17, 2014, 04:46:51 pm Yahoo Message Number: 149939This subject has been discussed before, but there's a new (albeit $$$) product on the market made by the German company Truma that some might find worth investigating. Rather than repeat the content of a long article, I'll just provide the link to a review provided by Howard of RV-Dreams (dot) com, a blog familiar I am sure to many in the LD community. His initial skepticism turned to enthusiasm. Read it here: http://www.rv-dreams.typepad.com/ If that link doesn't make it through Yahoo, use your browser to go to www (dot) rv-dreams (dot) typepad (dot) com and look for the entry headed "2014 RVIA Show & Truma." -- Jon ('06TK "Albatross")
Re: Tankless Water Heater Reply #1 – December 18, 2014, 12:25:08 pm Yahoo Message Number: 149941"However, we tended to keep it in the "Eco" mode mostly because Linda has superhuman hearing and she didn't like hearing the propane burner coming on to keep the water in the little tank heated to 103 degrees"Hi JonAfter reading through the blog, I don't see many advantages of this heater compared to the Atwood water heater most of us have in our LDs.The AquaGo isn't an instantaneous heater and does not have the benefit of low propane usage caused by not having to maintain a reservoir of readily available heated water . It's similar to a standard water heater but with a smaller storage tank and very large burner, capable of producing continuous hot water.Yes, it will heat water indefinitely, once turned on, but it also has a small, on-board storage tank of constantly heated water, either 103 or 42 degrees, depending on the setting. This reservoir of hot water is to make up for the burst of cold water that instantaneous heaters normally produce during their first few seconds of operation. It will fire anytime the water temperature drop below the set point to maintain the reservoir temperature. Sure sounds like an Atwood that has been left on. Doesn't look like there will be any propane savings with this heater and it doesn't offer an electric option for park dwellers. One thing in the blog that caught my attention was how the Factory tech could hook his laptop up to the heater. HUH! I don't need a computer controlled water heater. I assume that parts will be available for the Atwood heaters for many years. A German heater could be obsolete in just months and the parts may be made of unobtainium. I had bad luck obtaining parts for obscure German technology. A quick Google search shows no vendors in the US.So, what is this heater's advantage over a convectional heater? Continuous hot water isn't much of an benefit when you have a 60-gallon water tank, unless you spend most of your camping time in full hookup parks. IMO, this product is better suited for full timers who spend the majority of their time in full service parks. Diesel pushers often have washing machines that require large amounts of hot water, the perfect environment for a high output heater.Larry
Re: Tankless Water Heater Reply #2 – December 18, 2014, 03:38:34 pm Yahoo Message Number: 149942This is interesting.San Diego BobRV Boondocking News RV plumbing "mod" saves wasted not-so-hot water Posted: 17 Dec 2014 01:58 PM PST For boondockers, staying out in the "wilds" and away from civilization for as long as possible is often a priority. When we boondocked for entire winters on the desert, water was a primary concern - how do you stretch 40 gallons of fresh water between two people for as long as possible? The usual water conservation techniques always apply: Take the "Navy shower," as an example. Step in the shower, wet yourself down, turn off the water. Soap up. Turn on water, rinse off. It's practically a contest to see who can use the least amount of water and still come out clean. Other water conservation techniques come into play - save the dish water for flushing the toilet. We've even heard of extreme measures - one RVer uses a bucket and takes gray water out of his holding tank to flush the pot. Not so sure on that one - our gray water never smelled good enough to bring back inside the rig. But what about wasted water when waiting for hot water to make its seemingly sluggish way from the water heater all the way out to the faucet when you're waiting to wash your hands, dishes, etc? Some (ourselves included) have used a jug or pan to collect that otherwise clean, fresh water, and use it later for "cold water" purposes. But it can be a bit of a hassle, and if you're using a tankless "instant hot" heater, or if your conventional water heater is a long way from the faucet, you can collect quite a bit of tepid water while waiting. Here's an RV modification to think about. Rather than collecting that tepid water in a pan, instead, simply re-route it with a modified plumbing scheme to send it back to the fresh water tank. How so? By putting a "T" in the water line that supplies the "hot" side of your faucet. One of the T outputs routes to the faucet, and the other side to an add-on line that routes back to the fresh water tank inlet. The trick is to put a valve in the line headed back to the fresh tank. When you want hot water at the faucet, leave the faucet turned off, but open the re-route valve long enough to ensure you really have hot water on location. Now close the valve, and use the faucet - and have hot water readily available.center You could really trick this idea out by using a 12-volt electrically operated solenoid valve in place of a standard water valve. Push a button at the sink, the solenoid opens, shunting tepid water back to the fresh tank; when the hot has arrived, let loose of the "normally open momentary contact push" style button. Here's one solenoid you could use, for less than $25.00. Of course, you'll need access to 12 volts, and a way to route the "new" line back to the fresh water tank on your rig. It'd really only make sense if your tank is on the same side of the rig as the faucet(s) you want to modify, but hey, it's a great afternoon "mod" project for the boondocker. As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: Tankless Water Heater Reply #3 – December 18, 2014, 03:42:14 pm Yahoo Message Number: 149943"made of unobtainium"Isn't that the stuff they were mining on Pandora?San Diego Bob
Re: Tankless Water Heater Reply #4 – December 18, 2014, 04:28:34 pm Yahoo Message Number: 149944http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009HW49Y0/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B009HW49Y0&linkCode=as2&tag=rvtravel04-20BobFor years, I have wanted a hot water return line in our 23.5' FL but have not found a pipe pathway back to the fresh water tank or pump that stays inside the interior, to prevent freezing. I planned on using a ball valve.= to control the flow. The shower is the biggest waster of water in our LD. Waiting for the hot to show can flow a quart or more of water before it is warm enough to use. When we need to conserve, the water is capture it in a jug, a big PIA. Pushing a button would be so much easier.Larry As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: Tankless Water Heater Reply #5 – December 18, 2014, 07:26:01 pm Yahoo Message Number: 149946Larry,I sent you a private message to your email address a couple of days ago.. Just checking to see if you received it...Jo
Re: Tankless Water Heater Reply #6 – December 18, 2014, 07:41:12 pm Yahoo Message Number: 149947Jo You should have receive the response two days ago. I will resend it.Larry
Re: Tankless Water Heater Reply #7 – December 18, 2014, 10:27:06 pm Yahoo Message Number: 149949For years, I have wanted a hot water return line in our 23.5' FL but have not found a pipe pathway back to the fresh water tank or pump that stays inside the interior, to prevent freezing. I planned on using a ball valve.= to control the flow. The shower is the biggest waster of water in our LD. Waiting for the hot to show can flow a quart or more of water before it is warm enough to use. When we need to conserve, the water is capture it in a jug, a big PIA. Pushing a button would be so much easier.LarryLarry what did I over look. You said you did not find a pathway to return the hot water to the tank. Then how/what are you going to use the valve.GeorgeRetired Plumber
Re: Tankless Water Heater Reply #8 – December 19, 2014, 01:08:35 am Yahoo Message Number: 149950"Larry what did I over look. You said you did not find a pathway to return the hot water to the tank. Then how/what are you going to use the valve."GeorgeYou over looked nothing, I have not found a suitable pathway for a return line in our 2003 23.5' FL that keeps the return line inside the interior If a return pathway had been found, a ball valve would have been installed. A 12-volt solenoid would be another interesting way to control the return line.A possible way to bleed the hot water line of cold water would use a 12-pump and solenoid to pump water from the hot water supply line back into the cold water supply line. This method is used to retrofit homes with long hot water runs and no recirculation system. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Autocirc-Undersink-Instant-Hot-Water-Circulating-System-ACT-E1/100037011 http://documentlibrary.xylemappliedwater.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/22/files/documents/2011/12/A-134.pdf The lack of room under the bathroom sink has stopped this project. It would be a lot of work to save, at best, a quart or two of water a day.Larry
Re: Tankless Water Heater Reply #9 – December 19, 2014, 11:54:46 am Yahoo Message Number: 149955For years, I have wanted a hot water return line in our 23.5' FL but have not found a pipe pathway back to the fresh water tank or pump that stays inside the interior, to prevent freezing. I planned on using a ball valve.= to control the flow. The shower is the biggest waster of water in our LD. Waiting for the hot to show can flow a quart or more of water before it is warm enough to use. When we need to conserve, the water is capture it in a jug, a big PIA. Pushing a button would be so much easier.Larry I heard about the BG unit when it first came out but never had and interest in it or need for it. The shower in the house is on the other side of the wall from the HW tank. Looking at the unit now the only way that I can see it working is they return the HW through the CW line. I get the impression that you are a DIYer so give this a though and try. For testing: Remove the lav supplies from the angle stops under the lav. Take a peace of copper tubing and jumper the H and C water. With the HW tank working "HOT" allow the HW to return through the CW line. See how long it takes the HW to reach the lav. Years ago this is the way that it was done. The HW was tied to a return line at the end of the system and it would circulate by gravity with no pump. To make the system work better a pump was added. If the hot water will get to the lav in a time you can live with you have it made. Other wise you would need a pump and now it is a matter if you want to go to the extra expense and work. If it will work you would need to have 2 tee in the lav lines with a valve to stop the water from short circuiting when not in use. When I did a search for the BG unit I seen this solenoid valve there. http://www.amazon.com/Electric-Solenoid-Replacement-Pipelines-Applications/product-reviews/B00827FP26/ref=cm_cr_dp_qt_hist_one?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0Better than 90% of my camping is dry. This is how I do it in the 2005 24' front lounge. I always use a wash rag to shower. The shower is next to the lav. I waste a "small" amount of water at the lav. Once it gets luke warm I put the plug in and retain enough water to wet the wash rag. I "do not" wet down in the shower. This saves a lot of water. Wet the wash rag then add soap. Wash the whole body wetting the rag as needed. Use the rag to wet hair (what is left. Ha Ha.) then wash hair with shampoo. Once I have completely washed. I turn the shower "HOT" water on for the first time and start to rinse. If the water should start to get to warm I open the cold water if needed but do not stop rinsing to adjust the cold water. I turn the HW tank off before I take a shower and this keeps the water in the tank from getting hotter as the hot water leaves and replaced by cold water. It is surprising how much water most people waste just trying to adjust the shower water to the temp that they want.GeorgeRetired plumber.
Re: Tankless Water Heater Reply #10 – December 19, 2014, 10:29:21 pm Yahoo Message Number: 149965Larry if it would work in testing you would not need the tee's for the finish job. They make an angle stop that is used for dish washers. Instead of one opening for the lav you would use a Dish washer angle stop which has 2 openings. It feeds the HW on the kitchen sink and the dish washer; all built into one stop. You would use 2 stops and connect the DW openings for the bypass.GeorgeRetired plumber. I heard about the BG unit when it first came out but never had and interest in it or need for it. The shower in the house is on the other side of the wall from the HW tank. Looking at the unit now the only way that I can see it working is they return the HW through the CW line. I get the impression that you are a DIYer so give this a though and try. For testing: Remove the lav supplies from the angle stops under the lav. Take a peace of copper tubing and jumper the H and C water. With the HW tank working "HOT" allow the HW to return through the CW line. See how long it takes the HW to reach the lav. Years ago this is the way that it was done. The HW was tied to a return line at the end of the system and it would circulate by gravity with no pump. To make the system work better a pump was added. If the hot water will get to the lav in a time you can live with you have it made. Other wise you would need a pump and now it is a matter if you want to go to the extra expense and work. If it will work you would need to have 2 tee in the lav lines with a valve to stop the water from short circuiting when not in use. When I did a search for the BG unit I seen this solenoid valve there. http://www.amazon.com/Electric-Solenoid-Replacement-Pipelines-Applications/product-reviews/B00827FP26/ref=cm_cr_dp_qt_hist_one?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0Better than 90% of my camping is dry. This is how I do it in the 2005 24' front lounge. I always use a wash rag to shower. The shower is next to the lav. I waste a "small" amount of water at the lav. Once it gets luke warm I put the plug in and retain enough water to wet the wash rag. I "do not" wet down in the shower. This saves a lot of water. Wet the wash rag then add soap. Wash the whole body wetting the rag as needed. Use the rag to wet hair (what is left. Ha Ha.) then wash hair with shampoo. Once I have completely washed. I turn the shower "HOT" water on for the first time and start to rinse. If the water should start to get to warm I open the cold water if needed but do not stop rinsing to adjust the cold water. I turn the HW tank off before I take a shower and this keeps the water in the tank from getting hotter as the hot water leaves and replaced by cold water. It is surprising how much water most people waste just trying to adjust the shower water to the temp that they want.GeorgeRetired plumber.
Re: Tankless Water Heater Reply #11 – December 20, 2014, 04:19:00 am Yahoo Message Number: 149967A plumbers point of view:Cost is 25 to 50% more than an Atwood tank.Only Propane. In a park the Atwood has free electric power.If you have a SLOW water draw the tank will not turn on. In the camper I only turn the hot water on slow to wash hands or rinse the soapy dishes; so you will not have hot water. There has to be a water draw of .4 gal per minute for the tank to turn on. To get hot water there is a very great waste of water and propane.With there slow draw of water (.4 gal per minute it consumes 20,000 BTU per hour; the Atwood draws 8.800 per hour. AT the slow flow it consumes 2.25 times more BTU than an Atwood.At the high end of draw the BTU input is 60,000 BTU. The high out put would be a shower. It will consume 6.8 times more BTU than the Atwood.It takes 20 minutes to heat the Atwood 6 gal tank or 3000 BTU. And you can take at least 2 showers. A 5 minuet shower with the instant tank heater you will use 5,000 BTU and a 10 minute shower will use 10,000 BTUNot to be used at altitude above 9,800 feetAs far as the washing machine for close in the larger MH. We no longer us hot water. They mostly use cold water.6 years ago I looked very closely at installing a tank less HW heater in the house. I ended up going with a high end HW tank from Sears which has a full 12 year replacement warranty. If the tank fails with in 12 years they give me a new tank. FREE.The tank less would have cost 4 times as much as the regular HW tank. Sears tank was $425.00. How would I save $800.00 in gas (Cost of tank alone). My gas bill is only $3.50 a month and that includes the use of the gas dryer. And I still have not figured the cost of a new chimney or running new gas line.OTHER ADDED COSTTank less has 5 year warranty. Not 12 years. Had to replace flue in house. Chimney was to small.Had to increase the gas line to 1" not 3/4. Labor was free. I'm a licensed plumber in 2 states and 6 city licenses.The sears tank has a BTU rating of 40,000. The tank less has 200,000 BTU rating.Worst part is that if I do not run the HW faster than .4 gal per minute the tank will not turn on. So if you want luke warm water you only have COLD water.GeorgeRetired plumberAfter reading through the blog, I don't see many advantages of this heater compared to the Atwood water heater most of us have in our LDs.The AquaGo isn't an instantaneous heater and does not have the benefit of low propane usage caused by not having to maintain a reservoir of readily available heated water . It's similar to a standard water heater but with a smaller storage tank and very large burner, capable of producing continuous hot water.Yes, it will heat water indefinitely, once turned on, but it also has a small, on-board storage tank of constantly heated water, either 103 or 42 degrees, depending on the setting. This reservoir of hot water is to make up for the burst of cold water that instantaneous heaters normally produce during their first few seconds of operation. It will fire anytime the water temperature drop below the set point to maintain the reservoir temperature. Sure sounds like an Atwood that has been left on. Doesn't look like there will be any propane savings with this heater and it doesn't offer an electric option for park dwellers. One thing in the blog that caught my attention was how the Factory tech could hook his laptop up to the heater. HUH! I don't need a computer controlled water heater. I assume that parts will be available for the Atwood heaters for many years. A German heater could be obsolete in just months and the parts may be made of unobtainium. I had bad luck obtaining parts for obscure German technology. A quick Google search shows no vendors in the US.So, what is this heater's advantage over a convectional heater? Continuous hot water isn't much of an benefit when you have a 60-gallon water tank, unless you spend most of your camping time in full hookup parks. IMO, this product is better suited for full timers who spend the majority of their time in full service parks. Diesel pushers often have washing machines that require large amounts of hot water, the perfect environment for a high output heater.Larry
Re: Tankless Water Heater Reply #12 – December 20, 2014, 09:21:34 am Yahoo Message Number: 149970I get the impression that you are a DIYer so give this a though and try.---- Oh, my, yes, one could say most definitely that Larry is a "DIYer"! ;-)Joan (Blotting coffee off the keyboard after reading that comment!)
Re: Tankless Water Heater Reply #13 – December 20, 2014, 11:51:13 am Yahoo Message Number: 149971I get the impression that you are a DIYer so give this a though and try.---- Oh, my, yes, one could say most definitely that Larry is a "DIYer"! ;-)Joan (Blotting coffee off the keyboard after reading that comment!)******* Joan I hope you do not intend to sue and take me to court for the cost of a new key board.Ha! Ha!Have a nice DAYGeorgeRetired Plumber
portable charger Reply #14 – December 21, 2014, 02:29:02 pm Yahoo Message Number: 149980HiCheck out meh.com today (and good for today only). I cant say it will start your LD but it should certainly be able to jump start your toad.USB ports for charging your devices. Amazon $103---MEH $48. Cheap.It puts out 400 Amps peak, so if your chassis battery is not *completely* dead, it should be able to jump start your LD, IMO.Tom
Re: portable charger Reply #15 – December 21, 2014, 02:42:31 pm Yahoo Message Number: 149981HiCheck out meh.com today (and good for today only). I cant say it will start your LD but it should certainly be able to jump start your toad.USB ports for charging your devices. Amazon $103---MEH $48. Cheap.It puts out 400 Amps peak, so if your chassis battery is not *completely* dead, it should be able to jump start your LD, IMO.Tom I took an old set of jumper cables and split them down the center, removed one clamp from each cable then combined the two shorter cables to make one long cable. It will reach from the camper bat to the engine bat. Now use the camper bat to start the v10 engine.GeorgeRetired plumber.
Re: portable charger Reply #16 – December 21, 2014, 04:30:35 pm Yahoo Message Number: 149983Can I run a 12 device, such as that terrific 12 LED work light Larry recommended that I just bought recently? Does it have a port into which a 12 "cigarette lighter" style will fit?Kathy Lautz
Re: portable charger Reply #17 – December 21, 2014, 04:34:38 pm Yahoo Message Number: 149984George wrote:Tom I took an old set of jumper cables and split them down the center, removed one clamp from each cable then combined the two shorter cables to make one long cable. It will reach from the camper bat to the engine bat. Now use the camper bat to start the v10 engine.George George, that method is fine for some people. But others may want something that is neat, clean, fast, easy and safe. And can also be used on their toad, and charge phones and laptops and stuff like that.By safe I mean, what if on a dark rainy night, someone hooks up a cable like yours to the wrong battery terminal?Tom
Re: portable charger Reply #18 – December 21, 2014, 04:55:45 pm Yahoo Message Number: 149985Kathy, Larry's original message (with the link to the work light at Lowe's) is #149621; he states that it can be used with 120VAC and 12V. I looked at the link, and it shows a 12V cord as part of the package.http://www.lowes.com/pd_580828-43921-MPL1004-LED10K840_0__?productId=50196411So, if I understand your question correctly, I think the answer is "yes". Joan
Re: portable charger Reply #19 – December 21, 2014, 05:36:41 pm Yahoo Message Number: 149986"Does it have a port into which a 12 "cigarette lighter" style will fit?"KathyNone on the lithium jumpers I have seen have cigarette lighter plugs. They do have a 12-volt outlet where the jumper cables plug in. Someone handy could make an adaptor that would utilize the 12-volt outlet but I know of nothing premade that you could buy.The Lowes LED work I posted a couple weeks ago has a long extension cord that can reach most parts of the LD, using either the dash cigarette lighter plug or the one in the lounge. I used it last week while changing the upper generator rubber fuel line. It was nice to have a work light that didn't burn me if accidently touched.Larry
Re: portable charger Reply #20 – December 21, 2014, 05:58:42 pm Yahoo Message Number: 149987Sorry, Kathy; I missed the "charger" reference in the post title! Mea culpa!Joan
Re: portable charger Reply #21 – December 21, 2014, 07:42:54 pm Yahoo Message Number: 149988"Does it have a port into which a 12 "cigarette lighter" style will fit?"Larry wrote: None on the lithium jumpers I have seen have cigarette lighter plugs. They do have a 12-volt outlet where the jumper cables plug in. Someone handy could make an adaptor that would utilize the 12-volt outlet but I know of nothing premade that you could buy LarryOn my lithium /ion charger, (different brand), in the FAQ section of the operating manual, I read the following: Can I use the jumper clamps or starter port to power other things? Answer: No, this should not be done. The jumper clamp port and clamps should only be used to jump start vehicles. Other uses such as powering other electronics or motors will ruin the devise. Just saying.... Tom
Re: portable charger Reply #22 – December 21, 2014, 11:58:58 pm Yahoo Message Number: 149990HiCheck out meh.com today (and good for today only). I cant say it will start your LD but it should certainly be able to jump start your toad.USB ports for charging your devices. Amazon $103---MEH $48. Cheap.It puts out 400 Amps peak, so if your chassis battery is not *completely* dead, it should be able to jump start your LD, IMO.TomEither this is a very small unit or the one that I have is extremely large. I got it from Target some years ago.Vector, "Start it Pro" Marked 400 instant amps 1200 PEAK amps. You charge it through the cig lighter in the unit. Came with 2 chargers. 110 volt converter cord and cord with a cig lighter plug on each end so that you can charge it while driving.George Retired Plumber
Re: portable charger Reply #23 – December 22, 2014, 12:27:20 am Yahoo Message Number: 149991George, that method is fine for some people. But others may want something that is neat, clean, fast, easy and safe. And can also be used on their toad, and charge phones and laptops and stuff like that.By safe I mean, what if on a dark rainy night, someone hooks up a cable like yours to the wrong battery terminal?Tom Tom a jump start like that is fine if the bat just went dead because you left the lights on and the starter solenoid sets there an just clicks. And on a V10 you need bat power. Why do you think SMART people carry jumper cables. For jumper cables you need a bat in the other end of the cables. The Problem is that you will not find regular jumper cables that are much more than 12 feet. And there you set with 2- 6 volt bat that will start a large diesel engine on a cold day. And a gen to back up the MH bat. But how do you reach them with a set of 12 foot cables.
Re: portable charger Reply #24 – December 22, 2014, 10:46:54 am Yahoo Message Number: 149994And today (December 22nd, 2014), Meh is offering a 130-watt inverter for six bucks (plus $5 shipping). Might be handy to have around...Andy BairdTravels with Andy
Topic: Tankless Water Heater (Read 26 times)
previous topic - next topic
Topic: Tankless Water Heater (Read 26 times)
previous topic - next topic