FYI interesting development November 05, 2014, 11:27:28 am Yahoo Message Number: 149321Got my oil change, etc., went to get my brakes done [they need it!]. Interesting development....seems my rig and VIN show [as it should] that my rig is an E450..however..the FRONT axle/assemble is an E350!! The shop refused to do the brakes, stating it would be a liability issue for them...the parts on the front end don't match the VIN. Called Vince at the factory and he said there's NO WAY that LD would have assembled a 30 footer on such a chassis, that it would be a HUGE liability issue....but they had to have--this is all plainly original stuff on my rig ? ? ? ? ?? Called Sanderson Ford Truck in Phoenix and asked them if they had run across the same thing, IE chassis with this assemble, they said there were some built that way for ambulances, and a few other uses. Did say that E450 front ends are heavier-built than E350's [DOH!!]So, I have a mis-matched front to rear end...and no place to go to get that corrected at this late date.To say I'm flummoxed by the whole development is an understatement--no one can explain to me how this could have happened.I have found a shop that will do the brakes, and since I have over 100,000 miles on this set up, the front end assembly has functioned adequately...but the questions I have keep going round and round in my head...how the HECK did Ford and Lazy Daze miss this error?? Sort of a big one! And no one to hold accountable.Hoping the parts they've ordered will be the correct ones, as I understand it, they can't go by the VIN for part #s....I am having them done Thurs. am. This brake job is going to cost me $1,500.00.I kind of expected this, figured $500 to $1,000, but with this last bit of information, I am having ALL the front brake parts replaced as a whole..rotor, discs, caliphers, bearings, etc. The pads were badly heat damaged, tho still had pad left. The rears only need new pads, and the rotors turned. They had enough pads left to have gone longer, but wanted all to be done for long term safety.Just curious if anyone else has found their 30fters with differing assemblies when having their brakes done?? [Mine is a 1998 on an 1997 original chassis].Like I said....never a dull moment in RVs. Gini Free and Junah, canine xtrodinaire "CHERRYOTTE" our litte red home on wheels "Growing old is mandatory. Growing wise is optional."--- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: FYI interesting development Reply #1 – November 05, 2014, 01:18:54 pm Yahoo Message Number: 149325Gini, Did you check your vin number yourself against Ford's database? It is possible someone at the dealership did a typo. Here is a link. http://www.fleet.ford.com/maintenance/vin-decoder/
Re: FYI interesting development Reply #2 – November 05, 2014, 03:00:30 pm Yahoo Message Number: 149329Gini, if the "parts on the front end" don't match the VIN, is is possible that the OEM "parts" were replaced after the rig had an encounter with a wall a while back? I don't recall just where the damage to your rig was, but if it was on the front end, I would think that incorrect parts replacement by whoever did the repair work would be something to look at. Joan
Re: FYI interesting development Reply #3 – November 05, 2014, 03:34:00 pm Yahoo Message Number: 149330thanks for the replies..The VIN is the correct one--after all the various stuff done, if it were incorrect it would have shown up by now, and the Ford data base shows it correctly. And *if* Premier Coachworks had replaced the front end assembly, I am POSITIVE they would have charged the Ins. Co. for doing it. I looked at the old bill from them, and no, there's no charge for replacing the whole thing. The damage done by the acceleration incident was mostly body work, and mostly pass. side. Tough little rig!Larry looked at it when I took it to him for the water pump leak/replacement and as I remember, he commented on how little looked to have been done under the front end.Shaking my head over this one! Gini Free and Junah, canine xtrodinaire "CHERRYOTTE" our litte red home on wheels "Growing old is mandatory. Growing wise is optional."--- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: FYI interesting development Reply #4 – November 05, 2014, 08:16:14 pm Yahoo Message Number: 149335Gini, a friend recently had the front end of her E350-based motorhome (not a Lazy Daze) replaced with a brand new E450 front end (axle/wheels/brakes/etc.) for about $1,500. The company that did the work, QuadVan, specializes in 4x4 conversions, so they have these new E450 front ends on hand as "take-offs" from vehicles they've modified for four-wheel drive.Before you spend $1,500 for a brake job with extras that will leave you with an E350 suspension, it may be worth talking with QuadVan about getting a whole new E450 front end instead.Andy BairdTravels with Andy
Re: FYI interesting development Reply #5 – November 05, 2014, 08:40:12 pm Yahoo Message Number: 149337This sounds like a really good thing for my E-350 based chassis. Going to look into it thanks for the tip!Bob"Gini, a friend recently had the front end of her E350-based motorhome (not a Lazy Daze) replaced with a brand new E450 front end (axle/wheels/brakes/etc.) for about $1,500. The company that did the work, QuadVan, specializes in 4x4 conversions, so they have these new E450 front ends on hand as "take-offs" from vehicles they've modified for four-wheel drive.Before you spend $1,500 for a brake job with extras that will leave you with an E350 suspension, it may be worth talking with QuadVan about getting a whole new E450 front end instead.Andy Baird"
Re: FYI interesting development Reply #6 – November 06, 2014, 11:49:10 am Yahoo Message Number: 149341"Before you spend $1,500 for a brake job with extras that will leave you with an E350 suspension, it may be worth talking with QuadVan about getting a whole new E450 front end instead."Spent some time on Rock Auto's site, looking at the differences between E350 and E450 front brake specifications. It appears there is little difference between the various years of E350 and E450 front brakes. Pre-2008 model's front brakes both used 13" diameter rotors, 56-mm dual-piston brake calipers and the same size brake pads. While some of the part numbers are different, the size of the component appears to be the same.The biggest difference is the type of brake booster used. The E350 uses a vacuum booster, while the E450 uses a much more powerful hydroboost brake booster, driven by the power steering pump. From this preliminary examination, there doesn't seem to be a good reason for switching from the E350 I-beam axles to the E450's, in an attempt to gain more powerful brakes. The desired increase isn't there. The main difference in the front brakes is the much higher brake line pressure provided by the hydroboost. Changing from a vacuum booster to a hydroboost would be a serious and expensive undertaking, not a recommended project for anyone but a pro brake fabrication expert.Larry 1 Likes
Re: FYI interesting development Reply #7 – November 06, 2014, 01:01:46 pm Yahoo Message Number: 149342Thanks for the info Andy, but I'm sitting @ the shop getting the brakes done as we speak. Looked up QuadVan, and they are in Portland...would have had to drive on brakes needing replacement *now* to there...not up to taking any chances these days...grin. Been on the phone to Ford, online etc, and talked to Vince...this is a mystery to all...only me, right? Gini Free and Junah, canine xtrodinaire "CHERRYOTTE" our litte red home on wheels "Growing old is mandatory. Growing wise is optional."--- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: FYI interesting development Reply #8 – November 06, 2014, 06:53:01 pm Yahoo Message Number: 149345Larry, I should have mentioned that this was a 1999 E350 chassis. My friend says the front brakes are much bigger on the 2014 E450 front end she had installed by QuadVan, and other front suspension components are beefed up as well, compared to her 15-year-old rig's.I can believe that with more recent Ford chassis there'd be less difference. Still, given a choice between a brake job plus some other front-end work for about $1,500 total, and getting a whole new current-model E450 front end for the same cost... doesn't it make sense to consider the latter?Andy BairdTravels with Andy
Re: FYI interesting development Reply #9 – November 06, 2014, 10:23:21 pm Yahoo Message Number: 149347Gini, when are you going to write your book? (grin)Chris
Re: FYI interesting development Reply #10 – November 07, 2014, 12:45:09 am Yahoo Message Number: 149349"1999 E350 chassis. My friend says the front brakes are much bigger on the 2014 E450 front end she had installed by QuadVan, and other front suspension components are beefed up as well, compared to her 15-year-old rig's."AndyThe E450's brakes were upsized in 2008.A couple of possible problems changing to the newer E450 front axle. Brakes are engineered as a complete, balanced package, upsizing the size of the front brakes could throw the front to back brake ratio off.Next, a potentially bigger problem, the bigger E450 brakes required the greater fluid volume and the pressure supplied by a hydroboost. 1999 E350s have the weaker vacuum boosted brakes. I'm familiar with the difference in braking power, having driven many different E350s, when compared to our 23.5' E450...big difference. I would be concerned the master cylinder would not be able to supply enough volume, at a high enough pressure. Lets look at the numbers found at Rock Auto's site. 1999 E350 front brake's Calipers - Dual 56-mm diameter pistons Rotors - 13.03" diameter Master cylinder - 1-5/16 diameter, vacuum boosted.2010 E450 front brake's. Calipers - Dual 60-mm diameter pistons, hydroboosted Rotors - 13.58" diameter Master cylinder - 1-3/8" diameterBalance between the front and rear brakes can be critical. Check the difference between the rear brakes. 1999 E450 44-mm dual piston calipers 12.825" diameter rotors 2010 E450 54-mm dual piston calipers 13.583" diameter rotors Ford upsized the rear brakes in the 2008+ models to match the bigger front brakes, keeping things in balance.The E450 brake calipers require more volume to move the brakes pads, plus the larger diameter rotors require more pressure to stop. The 1999 E350 has a smaller master cylinder than the E450 (1-5/16" vs. 1-3/8") Vacuum boosters usually supply 1000-1600 psi. Hydroboost boosters supply 2400-3000 psi. http://www.vancopbs.com/category_s/66.htmAs you can see, changing things can get interesting fast. There is a lot of engineering involved in designing brake systems. There are differences, does it matter? Can't say without driving it. How much leeway there is in this type of modification is unknown. As long as the master cylinder has enough reserve pedal travel to compensate for the larger caliper's fluid needs, it may work fine with the lighter E350. You need to be able to set off the anti-locks brakes, on dry pavement, without the brake pedal reaching the floor. Beside having greater volume, the E450's hydroboost can produce 2-3 times the hydraulic pressure of the vacuum boosters. I often see them used in Jeeps with oversized tires.Having modified a lot of brakes systems, mostly off-road vehicles, getting things balanced can be challenging. I prefer to leave the critical engineered systems in our car and RV as stock as possible, believing the engineers who designed them know a lot more than I do.LarryMostly stock 2003 23.5' FL
Re: FYI interesting development Reply #11 – November 07, 2014, 12:55:14 am Yahoo Message Number: 149350OK, I have to apologize. I misunderstood what my friend told me. What was installed at QuadVan was an E-series front axle/suspension/brakes (not specifically an E450 unit). As Larry pointed out, that part of an E-350/E-450 are not that different from each other.The key point is that the rig's pre-2008 E-Series chassis received a 2008-and-newer E-Series front axle/suspension/brakes. It happened to be from a 2014 donor in this case, but it just needs to be 2008-or-newer, because in 2008 Ford had a redesign in this area. In addition to some suspension design changes, the brakes are larger.So the transplant was a big improvement for the rig, not because of going from E350 to E450, but because of going from 2007-and-older E-Series, to 2008-or-newer E-Series. The cost, by the way, was about $1,200, rather than the $1,500 I mentioned. This includes a new Ford anti-sway bar because the attachments are different (so the old bar does not transfer over). Or one can upgrade to a Roadmaster or Hellwig bar (larger diameter than stock Ford, additional cost).My friend did the transplant for the bigger brakes, and incidentally benefitted from the front suspension design improvements, new ball joints, tie rods, and other parts that came along with the new front axle.Andy BairdTravels with Andy
Re: FYI interesting development Reply #12 – November 07, 2014, 07:41:03 am Yahoo Message Number: 149351The switch is a big deal. The front axle assembly on the 08 and newer 450 will carry a bigger load. The wheel barrings, spindles are also beefier. That does not change the weight ratings of an older Ford but it should give some peace of mind to the driver. I think if I were to do this I would be tempted to change the front shocks just as a preventive maintenance item if they had not been recently done.
Re: FYI interesting development Reply #13 – November 07, 2014, 10:31:12 am Yahoo Message Number: 149353"What was installed at QuadVan was an E-series front axle/suspension/brakes (not specifically an E450 unit). As Larry pointed out, that part of an E-350/E-450 are not that different from each other."Looking at Quadvan's site, I see they do a lot of 4X4 conversions to E350 vans http://www.quadvan.com/unparalleled-4x4-van-serviceability-competitor-comparison. It's possible the replaced I-beams were from a E350, instead of a E450. Either way, it has larger front brakes. There is a large difference between the size of the 1999 E350's rear brakes, compared to a 2014 2014 E350s, in the rear have 48-mm dual piston calipers and 345-mm rotors, compared to the 1999 E350's in the rear have 44-mm dual piston calipers and 326-mm rotors. The newer front axles have much stronger brakes, while the rear still has the smaller 1999 brakes. This changes the front to rear braking ratio and will cause some additional weight transfer to the front during hard braking, something to be aware of since it will likely occur in wet or frosty weather in the form of early wheel lockup. I hope the anti-lock sensors, from the 1999 were interchangeable with the 2014 axles and rotors or were changed to sensors that would work. Rock Auto shows the different year front wheel sensors as having different part numbers.. You should definitely check to see if the ant-locks are fully functional, keeping in mind that the two axles have a 15 year difference in age and design. Auto electronics and anti-lock brakes have evolved a lot in the interim and the two anti-lock brake systems may not be interchangeable. It can get very tricky quickly when updating old brake systems with newer partsMy only interest in this is seeing that the owner of the 1999 LD has safe, fully functional brakes Don't want to lose any members of the cult..Larry.
Re: FYI interesting development Reply #14 – November 07, 2014, 10:35:08 am Yahoo Message Number: 149354Larry, given what you've shown as the discrepancies between brake setups for each [E350/E450] how does this impact *my* brake assembly ..IE the vaccuum/master cylinder power ratio and balance of the larger rear end with the smaller front? ......The E450 brake calipers require more volume to move the brakes pads, plus the larger diameter rotors require more pressure to stop. The 1999 E350 has a smaller master cylinder than the E450 (1-5/16" vs. 1-3/8") Vacuum boosters usually supply 1000-1600 psi. ....and....Balance between the front and rear brakes can be critical. Check the difference between the rear brakes. .....I have no way of knowing if the assembly between front to rear is the heavier duty E450 or the lighter E350. This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. Gini Free and Junah, canine xtrodinaire "CHERRYOTTE" our litte red home on wheels "Growing old is mandatory. Growing wise is optional."
Re: FYI interesting development Reply #15 – November 07, 2014, 10:51:33 am Yahoo Message Number: 149355"The switch is a big deal. The front axle assembly on the 08 and newer 450 will carry a bigger load. The wheel barrings, spindles are also beefier"JohnNot really, the ball joints and wheel bearings are the same, with the same part numbers. The tie rod ends are the same size too. The only upgrade is the larger diameter front rotors and brake calipers, everything is the same, just new.$1200 isn't a bad price for the new axles installed. A DIY type could rebuild their front axle for less. The downside is that you are still stuck with the weaker vacuum brake booster, instead of the hydroboost booster, the part that makes the E450's brakes so powerful.Larry.
Re: FYI interesting development Reply #16 – November 07, 2014, 11:05:55 am Yahoo Message Number: 149356"given what you've shown as the discrepancies between brake setups for each [E350/E450] how does this impact *my* brake assembly ..IE the vaccuum/master cylinder power ratio and balance of the larger rear end with the smaller front?"GiniYour rig has a vacuum booster? It's a 1999 model too? It's been a while. It should have a hydroboost. In your model year, the E350 and Super-Duty (what the E450 was first called) have the same size front brake caliper and rotors. The difference between the 1999 E350 and E450 is that the E450 has the more powerful hydroboost brake booster, which can supply braking pressure up to three time higher than the vacuum booster.Larry
Re: FYI interesting development Reply #17 – November 07, 2014, 11:09:26 am Yahoo Message Number: 149357"I think if I were to do this I would be tempted to change the front shocks just as a preventive maintenance item"My friend put on adjustable Koni shocks. :-)Andy BairdTravels with Andy
Re: FYI interesting development Reply #18 – November 07, 2014, 01:38:57 pm Yahoo Message Number: 149358All in all, this sounds like something not to be messed with. Screwing around with factory engineered systems usually just brings trouble down the line. Nobody knows more about a Ford then the people who designed and built it.Bob
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