Mountain Directory question August 04, 2014, 08:07:30 am Yahoo Message Number: 147757Hi all. We are planning a trip out west this fall, and being from GA, are a little concerned about the roads "out there":) We are looking into getting the Mountain directory west, but, after reading the web site, am a little confused about how to *apply* the information. I've never had our MB on a 6% grade, that I know of (or 7%, or 8%...). So, the question is, how do you use the directory to your advantage? What would I be looking to avoid, having no experience driving in the western state? All suggestions, information, experiences, and instructions appreciated.Thanks, Ken and Joyce
Re: Mountain Directory question Reply #1 – August 04, 2014, 09:17:56 am Yahoo Message Number: 147758If your MB is new enough that it has the Tow/Haul feature, you will probably want to use it. Especially if you are towing. It will help keep your downhill speed in check. But you really should have no problem with grades up to 10 or 12%, assuming the road surface is paved and smooth.Dave, '06 MB, Indianapolis
Re: Mountain Directory question Reply #2 – August 04, 2014, 09:35:07 am Yahoo Message Number: 147759Hey, we're from GA also, 20 miles east of ATL. Made a western swing last Sept and had a great time. Drove to St Louis then picked up I-70 to Colorado. Be sure to spend a couple of nights on top of Colorado National Monument. Then into Utah, Canyon Lands was good. On up to SLC then south on I-15. Stayed at Virgin River Recreation Area, very peaceful. On to Vegas then dropped down to I-40 to come back east. Many good things to see. Good state parks along the way as well national parks. One of the best investments we made was we purchased a Next Exit book off Amazon. Tells you what to expect at most exits off the interstate system. I think they have an App for also. Looking to do it again next year but taking different routes. Have fun and enjoy the ride. Not familiar with the Mountain Directory but sounds interesting.David 05RK
Re: Mountain Directory question Reply #3 – August 04, 2014, 09:36:24 am Yahoo Message Number: 147760As a Oregonian living in the wet side of the state 6% grades are a fact of life if we wanted to go anyplace out of valley or state. What I do is hold a steady 1900 to 2100 rpm going up the grade and use the same rpm going down. Sometimes this means 15 to 20 MPH. I watch engine and transmission temps. The long grades generally have truck lanes you can live in. Take it slow. Enjoy the views. After all you are in a recreation vehicle not a race car.Glen
Re: Mountain Directory question Reply #4 – August 04, 2014, 09:50:04 am Yahoo Message Number: 147761We live in Vermont and have never enjoyed getting in and out of the state. Just getting on the interstate is a steep grade - we can't get up to 50 until we are halfway down the other side. We climb up to 3700 feet at one point. Gas mileage is terrible for 200 miles! Found the rpm suggestion really helpful as we don't want to.treat our new to us 96 TK as a race car! Sandy Vt
Re: Mountain Directory question Reply #5 – August 04, 2014, 12:02:17 pm Yahoo Message Number: 147763"after reading the web site, am a little confused about how to *apply* the information."Ken and Joyce, the Mountain Directories tell you where the steep grades are and offer specific tips about them. You can then use that information to either plan alternate routes, or to at least be prepared for what you'll encounter. This Eureka page on mountain driving offers good, easy-to-remember tips on how to cope with steep grades.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travel
Re: Mountain Directory question Reply #6 – August 04, 2014, 12:15:37 pm Yahoo Message Number: 147764Ken & Joyce wrote:Quote... We are looking into getting the Mountain directory west, but, after reading the web site, am a little confused about how to *apply* the information. I've never had our MB on a 6% grade, that I know of (or 7%, or 8%...). So, ... how do you use the directory to your advantage? What would I be looking to avoid [?]... The Mountain Directory is simply information about mountain passes and the grades you will traverse when descending them. It was originally published for long haul truckers, who live with the challenge of keeping 80,000 pounds of truck & cargo under control while going downhill. If you haven't yet done so, I recommend going to the Mountain Directory website: http://www.mountaindirectory.com/There, you can look at some sample pages, and see how the books are laid out and organized, and the kind of information you'll find in them. The descriptions of the grades are, I believe, always written about the descending grades, as downhill is the big concern. As someone else wrote in this thread, you'll have no problems ascending grades, but be prepared, on the steeper ones, to downshift and to climb the hill as slowly as 10-15 MPH in extreme cases. The issue going downhill is to control your speed without burning up your brakes, and downshifting is in order here, using your brakes only to supplement the engine in controlling your speed. If you accelerate too much and brake too often in second gear, then slow down more and downshift again. If a road is particularly treacherous, the book will say so. It says this about CA Hwy 36 between I-5 and US 101: "This road was designed by mad scientists to see if they could make drivers go insane. Judging by some of the drivers we have seen on this road, the scientists have succeeded. There aren't many roads to choose from if you want to go from I-5 to the coast but this road should be near the bottom of the list, especially if you are driving a large vehicle..." It then goes on to describe 10 & 15 MPH switchbacks, redwood trees growing straight up from the white line on both sides of the road, one section that's so narrow they don't paint a line down the middle, and 9 & 10% grades for 3 - 4 miles at a time. All of this information allows you to make an intelligent decision whether to take a given route, and if so, how to drive it.Always bear in mind the truck drivers' adage: "You can go up a mountain too fast as many times as you want to. You can go down a mountain too fast only once."Jim O'Briant Gilroy, CA CEO & Administrator www. OvernightRVParking.com
Re: Mountain Directory question Reply #7 – August 04, 2014, 05:54:22 pm Yahoo Message Number: 147765Unless you are planning on a lot of back road travel, mountain grades in the West are no big deal. You just go up (slowly) and then go down (slowly). Read up on how to down shift, depending on your LD's age and engine. Going up a grade your engine will down shift automatically according to the % of grade. I've driven on many a grade all over the West and never had a problem. Going up a grade, be prepared for the high pitched whine when the turbo cooler kicks in. At least, I think that's what it is. Someone will have the correct term.Chris '02 31' IB towing '10 Honda CRV Denver
Re: Mountain Directory question Reply #8 – August 04, 2014, 07:13:08 pm Yahoo Message Number: 147766That is probably the radiator fan clutch engaging.Dick
Re: Turbo cooler Reply #9 – August 04, 2014, 07:32:15 pm Yahoo Message Number: 147767Aw, shucks. I thought maybe Chris had a cool new accessory for his engine! ;-)Andy BairdTravels with Andy
Re: Mountain Directory question Reply #10 – August 04, 2014, 08:32:24 pm Yahoo Message Number: 147768Well, I don't consider going up a hill at 15-20 mph "recreation"! I'd feel suicidal, going that slow, and would not be able to enjoy the view. Going downhill, I let it run at the speed limit. We're not driving big semis with fully loaded trailers - I can almost always go down safely at the speed limit. What chassis do you have? "Slow" for us is going up a steep grade at 45 mph at about 3200 rpm and in 2nd gear. That worked well for us in our previous E350 chassis, and even better in our current E450 chassis. It's not a strain on the engine, as that is thousands of rpm from it's red line, and with the gas pedal about half way down, it can do that all day with no concern. The transmission temperature hardly budges.Eric Greenwell Tf Hafford [lifewithalazydazerv] wrote, On 8/4/2014 6:36 AM: 1 Likes
Re: Mountain Directory question Reply #11 – August 04, 2014, 09:27:07 pm Yahoo Message Number: 147769"I'd feel suicidal, going that slow, and would not be able to enjoy the view.""Suicidal"? You wouldn't be able to enjoy the view while going slowly? Hard for me to comprehend. What's your big rush, Eric? :-)"Going downhill, I let it run at the speed limit."Now that could be suicidal.Andy BairdTravels with Andy
Re: Mountain Directory question Reply #12 – August 04, 2014, 10:30:09 pm Yahoo Message Number: 147770The E350 and 450 chassis are very competent vehicles. There is no generally need to go 20 mph uphill on roads with a truck lane, unless it's really steep. The interstates and secondary highways rarely are. Going 15-20 mph on a 50-to 70 mph road - that's as much as 35 to 55 speed differential - would make me very nervous somebody wouldn't be paying attention, and run into me (or I'd hold them up if it's a two lane road).Most speed limits are conservative, and well within the E350/E450 capabilities; but I should have added that I usually stay below 65 mph, particularly when towing the glider trailer. I downshift to control most of the speed, and occasional light applications of the brakes keeps the speed appropriate for the conditions. Staying below 65 or the speed limit, whichever is lower, has never seemed to be a safety issue, even going downhill. Now, it might be my SOBs handle better the comparable LD, because both SOBs had significantly longer wheelbases, and that could be an important factor in how fast I'm willing to drive. If it drives steadier, most of us are willing to drive a bit faster. My current 25' SOB has a 181" wheelbase; the 24' LD models - only 158" (that's one reason I chose it over the LD Front dinette) That's 181" is 5" longer than even the LD 27' models.Eric Greenwell [lifewithalazydazerv] wrote, On 8/4/2014 6:26 PM:
Re: Turbo cooler Reply #13 – August 04, 2014, 11:07:23 pm Yahoo Message Number: 147771You can tell I a lot of mechanical knowledge. I remember the first time I heard that high-pitched whining noise while climbing Vail pass. I thought the engine was ready to explode.Chris
Re: Turbo cooler Reply #14 – August 04, 2014, 11:15:05 pm Yahoo Message Number: 147772"I remember the first time I heard that high-pitched whining noise while climbing Vail pass. I thought the engine was ready to explode."I can go you one better, Chris--the first time I heard that noise (in Gertie), I took the rig to a transmission shop and told them "Something's wrong--it never gets out of second gear!" ;-)Andy BairdTravels with Andy
Re: Mountain Directory question Reply #15 – August 05, 2014, 07:43:21 am Yahoo Message Number: 147773Well, I'm glad I asked about this! It appears there is not too much to worry about, just watch my speeds and use the transmission for slowing going downhill, both of which I already do on the "hills" here in GA. Also, stay on the main highways. Probably will stay off any road that the Mtn. Dir. says you must be crazy to drive . Thanks for the info, and if there is more to discover, please keep writing. Ken and Joyce
Re: Mountain Directory question Reply #16 – August 05, 2014, 10:47:24 am Yahoo Message Number: 147774"Probably will stay off any road that the Mtn. Dir. says you must be crazy to drive ." --- "Crazy" is relative! ;-) Choosing which roads to drive is a personal one, of course, and depends on one's mountain driving skills and confidence level as well as the type of equipment one is driving/towing. But, sticking exclusively to interstates and/or main roads will leave a lot "scenic holes" in the journey! Many of the most beautiful roads in the west are often narrow, steep, and/or curvy.You might want to look at the National Scenic Byways website:http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/byways/Each state listing has descriptions and locations of designated national and/or "All American" scenic byways. For more road listings, just do a search using the name of the state + scenic roads; for example, "Idaho scenic roads" generates many sites with road listings that are not necessarily designated national or All-American, but are lovely nonetheless.A sightseeing option that most use if they're towing is to base in a central location and use the toad to explore roads and sights in that area.One would need more than one lifetime to "goseedo" all the scenic roads in the west; plan on making several trips! ;-)Joan
Re: Mountain Directory question Reply #17 – August 05, 2014, 11:02:12 am Yahoo Message Number: 147775"My current 25' SOB has a 181" wheelbase"---- Is this a stock chassis? Which manufacturer? Which "SOB"?Joan
Re: Mountain Directory question Reply #18 – August 05, 2014, 12:13:14 pm Yahoo Message Number: 147776I was going to reply privately to Ken and Joyce on this one. but after seeing some responses that concerned me, I decided to make it a public post. First - my background. I used to be a traffic engineer. I did road and highway design, and I did accident analysis and safety evaluation, in both the public and private sector. I received one of the first certifications for Professional Traffic Operations Engineer from the Institute of Transportation Engineers, an organization in which I held the highest membership as "Fellow". I have been published nationally. What I have to say will be a mix of personal and professional opinion. First the professional - Western roads generally fall into two distinct categories. Older roads were often built where and as economically feasible, with little regard for speed and safety issues. Their purpose was to provide access to otherwise unaccessible areas. They pre-date the days of roadway design standards. On them, you can expect severe grades and sharp turns. Newer roads are designed much more with safety in mind. Grades and curves are limited, based on the class of road, with safety and mobility the priorities. Often that means severe impacts on the environment as roads are cut into slopes. There is also a hybrid type road, designed and built for special purposes, knowing full well that generally accepted design standards cannot and will not be met. Such are often in Parks and recreation areas. One prime example is the Going To The Sun Road in Glacier National Park. Others are the Tioga Pass Road in Yosemite and the south entrance to Sequoia National ParkUsually, such roads are often posted with vehicle size restrictions. This does not mean that you will not encounter some challenging grades on newer roads such as the interstate highways. The highway leading to and from the Eisenhower Tunnel on Rt 80 west of Denver includes prolonged grades that may tax a vehicle's abilities. Such roads also have truck lanes to accommodate slower vehicles, up and down, as well as Runaway Truck Ramps. I hope you never need to use one of those - they are last-ditch devices which allow the tires to sink into soft gravel, bringing you to a safe stop. You will need a tow truck to get out of them. Truck lanes are there to allow you to operate your vehicle safely, both up and down. For vehicles the size and weight of our RV's, driving down a long, steep grade at the speed limit may be extremely dangerous. Depending on your brakes to repeatedly slow you to the speed limit means your brakes must absorb the energy accumulated by your vehicle. That energy gets turned into heat. When your brakes get hot enough, the brake fluid begins to boil. Brake fluid in its liquid state is non-compressible, which allows your braking to create friction on the disk or drum surface, and slow you down. Once the fluid is boiling, it becomes gas, not liquid, and is compressible. It can no longer apply the pressure needed. Your foot will go to the floor, your brakes will not respond, and they will continue to not respond until the brakes cool. In short, you will have no brakes in what is now a runaway vehicle and your speeds can build uncontrollably, leading to running off the road or turning over unless you are able to steer into a runaway truck ramp or the road flattens out. So much for the professional stuff. Now, the personal - mountain driving downhill is all about energy management. If you allow your speed to build up, you may have a hard time downshifting, and braking may not be sufficient to get into a lower gear without damage to the transmission. I plan ahead. A car descending from the Eisenhower Tunnel can comfortably travel at the speed limit. An RV should not. When I have come through there, I downshift to 2nd at the top, sit in the right lane with my flashers on, and descend at a comfortable 35 mph, along with the trucks. I may have to touch my brakes once or twice on the way down. I do the same on the Siskiyou grade on I-5 just after crossing from California into Oregon. If you have the tow-haul feature, that MAY be enough to control your speed. Starting down, you set the system by stepping briefly on the brakes. As you coast and speed builds, the system is designed to downshift. From there on, it will try to maintain that speed as a pre-set. One caution - if the engine RPM's climb too high, it will cut out, allowing the system to shift up. It strikes a balance between mph and rpm. I usually do not use the downhill speed control. Instead, I look at the posting about grade percent and length at the top, then pick an appropriate gear and shift into it. That way, I strain nothing. There is a road in New Mexico, Rt 152, that crosses the Gila Mountains heading east to Caballo through Hillsboro. At the top of that road, I pick first gear. I use my Scangauge to monitor engine and transmission temperatures. At a transmission temp of 220 degrees, I pull into one of the turnouts provided, stop, put the system in park and let the temps drop down to normal before continuing. I use my brakes 3 or 4 times, other than when stopping, coming down that grade, yet have spoken with others who braked all the way down and had smoking, stinking, spongy brakes at the bottom and who swore they would never drive that road again. For their way of managing energy, that is probably a wise decision. Another such that comes to mind is Rt 160 in Colorado from Wolf Creek Pass to Pagosa Springs. I stopped twice to let stuff cool on that grade. The important "take-away" here is that I was not in a hurry. I kept my speed low, I did not overtax any component on my vehicle, and I traveled the roads safely and happily. So - Ken and Joyce - here is my advice. Look forward to driving in the mountains, not with fear or trepidation, but with good sense and caution. Do not feel guilty about negotiating a grade well below the speed limit, either up or down. Slower vehicles are to be expected on mountain grades. Uphill, let your transmission select its gear, using the gas to keep the RPM at a reasonable level. For me, that is 5000 RPM. Downhill, plan ahead, slowing and downshifting to perhaps one gear lower than you think you need. It is easy to shift up one, but harder to shift down one once your speed has begun to climb. Again, try to keep the RPM's below 5000, with judicious use of the brakes. Get a Scangauge and use it to monitor engine and transmission temps, and stop when necessary to let stuff cool down.Come on out - it's great out here!Ken F in WY 1 Likes
Re: Mountain Directory question Reply #19 – August 05, 2014, 12:22:09 pm Yahoo Message Number: 147778After Mt Nebo State Park in Arkansas I went home and bought a mountain guide for the eastern states. There was no grade sign going up, but the road is marked with an 18% sign when you get ready to go down.It isn't in the book.
Re: Mountain Directory question Reply #20 – August 05, 2014, 12:46:55 pm Yahoo Message Number: 147779Great post, Ken. You may well have saved a few RVers' lives with that.Thanks for sharing your knowledge and wisdom!Martha in Santa Fe
Re: Mountain Directory question Reply #21 – August 05, 2014, 12:54:16 pm Yahoo Message Number: 147780Having the greatest respect for your considerable knowledge on the subject, I am ever so grateful, Ken, that you shared this response with us all. Even after forty+ years of driving the mountains of the west, my husband was grateful for your having shared this very good information. I am definitely going to keep this post where I can find it! ;->Virtual hugs,Judie http://dorrieanne.wordpress.com
Re: Mountain Directory question Reply #22 – August 05, 2014, 04:41:17 pm Yahoo Message Number: 147785Thanks Ken for your article about mountain driving. Articles like this are a good wake-up call for many of us. . I am quite familiar with the Siskiyou grade on I-5 from California into Oregon. I drove this several times during the last few weeks. Looking back at this, familiarity with grades like this could also lead into a certain amount of complacency. I keep your article in mind when I drive this grade or a similar grade again next time.Aad Rommelse
Re: Mountain Directory question Reply #23 – August 05, 2014, 05:57:34 pm Yahoo Message Number: 147787This does not mean that you will not encounter some challenging grades on newer roads such as the interstate highways. The highway leading to and from the Eisenhower Tunnel on Rt 80 west of Denver includes prolonged grades that may tax a vehicle's abilities. Such roads also have truck lanes to accommodate slower vehicles, up and down, as well as Runaway Truck Ramps. I hope you never need to use one of those - they are last-ditch devices which allow the tires to sink into soft gravel, bringing you to a safe stop. You will need a tow truck to get out of them.I live in Denver and drive I-70 to go west all the time.Ken should have ment to say 70 out of Denver not 80. TypeO Using the Tow/Haul is a must. I fine that once in T/H and you brake to the safe speed you want the trans down shifts (2005 E450) and will keep this speed. I have little braking after that. One thing about driving this road and any other 3 or more lane road (70 is 4 lane) NEVER I REPEAT NEVER get in the outside lane. This lane is for the 18 wheel truck. If they have a problem and loose brakes you do not want to be in front of them. THEY WILL TAKE YOU OUT. AND IF THERE IS SOME ONE COMING UP FAST BEHIND YOU LAYING ON THE HORN GET OUT OF THERE WAY. Better safe then sorry. They may have lost there brakes. The run off ramp are not that close for them. I have a SCANGUAGE on my 2005 E450 and if you learn to use the right gears there is no need for it. On the up hill as you down shift there is no problem with the over heat temp of the coolant or transmission. The lower gears will make the fan run that much faster and it will cool both the coolant and transmision. If you want to spend the money go ahead but you will not find a need for it on the E450 Ford did a VERY VERY good job of matching the engine and transmission. Learn to DOWN SHIFT.George Retired Plumber
Re: Mountain Directory question Reply #24 – August 05, 2014, 06:48:50 pm Yahoo Message Number: 147790"There is a road in New Mexico, Rt 152, that crosses the Gila Mountains heading east to Caballo through Hillsboro. "In 10 years of RVing, were have NEVER tackled roads like that in an RV. We always camp the RV at one end or the other (in this case, Silver City or the town of "Truth or Consequences") and enjoy the rugged, gorgeous terrain from our toad or an Enterprise rent-a-car.Bob Siegel Santa Fe New MexicoBob Siegel Santa Fe New Mexico
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