Bateries vs genset May 27, 2014, 03:07:38 pm Yahoo Message Number: 146559When we order our 27 MB we will order the 2nd solar panel and would like to double the house battery bank to 440 AH and not have a genset. We are not likely to boondock for weeks at a time but will stay in parks. Also, the E450 with a 155 amp alternator should be able to charge batteries fairly quickly. Reason for not having a genset is that they are expensive, need to be run monthly at half draw, are noisy and because of using LED lights and solar panels, I don't think it is really needed. What does the group think? Thanks for your input.Ian Walker
Re: Bateries vs genset Reply #1 – May 27, 2014, 03:34:37 pm Yahoo Message Number: 146560Although I hardly ever use it a generator is a good idea because: 1) If you encounter a rainstorm or several overcast days while not plugged in to A.C. it gives you a backup power source and a way to charge the batteries. Sometimes you might want to run microwave while boondocking. 2) Increases resale value of the RV. 3) Allows for more independence should it be needed. 4) Gives you a way to jump chassis battery in an emergency.Just make sure to get some long jumper cables that reach the chassis battery. Regarding solar and batteries more is always better IMO but I boondock a lot. If you are staying in parks most of the time you don't need the capacity and expense that goes with it. Also wattage rating of engine alternator has nothing to do with charge rate of coach batteries. That is regulated by engine computer. Don't count on more than a couple amps.Bob
Re: Bateries vs genset Reply #2 – May 27, 2014, 03:42:03 pm Yahoo Message Number: 146561I cannot envision LD accepting an order that does not include the gen. set and giving you a credit. You might call Todd before you spend any more time contemplating this issue.Also. They will not install two more batteries. Confirm this with Todd when you ask about the generator.After you own the rig, you can remove the generator if you think that's really a good idea. Adding two more batteries to the MB plan is fairly easy. Figure about $1,000 to have it done professionally.Enjoy your new LD.Ed
Re: Bateries vs genset Reply #3 – May 27, 2014, 03:47:51 pm Yahoo Message Number: 146562In a message dated 5/27/2014 12:34:41 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, lifewithalazydazerv@yahoogroups.com writes: Quote Quote Although I hardly ever use it a generator is a good idea because: 1) If you encounter a rainstorm or several overcast days while not plugged in to A.C. it gives you a backup power source and a way to charge the batteries. Sometimes you might want to run microwave while boondocking. 2) Increases resale value of the RV. 3) Allows for more independence should it be needed. 4) Gives you a way to jump chassis battery in an emergency. Very good advice Bob. I have used my genset while in my driveway. Since I bought my 2003 LD in May 2010 the lights in the house had gone out 3 times. It gets pretty hot in SoCal, so we kept cool during the power outage. One of the outages where about 24 hours. I even plugged in my house frig so the food does not spoil. I don't think you will be able to run your AC on house batteries or propane. Get the the Generator, I could not survive without it. Escondido, CA John LD 2003 MB 26.5
Re: Bateries vs genset Reply #4 – May 27, 2014, 04:40:44 pm Yahoo Message Number: 146564Not having a gen-set will probably effect its resale value, if that is a concern. It will be interesting to see if LD will do it. You can always remove it and sell it as new, if the Mothership is not cooperative. You could hang all the batteries in the generator's spot, opening up the battery box for other uses Something like this. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/1416466406/in/set-72157602104740457 If going without a generator, I would have LD not install any solar and have it done instead in the aftermarket, by AM Solar or other qualified installer. Most everything done by LD will need to be replaced if more than two panels are installed. LD will not install extra batteries, another reason to have it done all at once.. With four batteries, install around 400-watts of solar. 200-watts may be fine for the warmer months but in the winter, you probably will need more solar-less sunlight and more hours of lightening and electronics usage. You may want some type of bigger inverter for those times 120-VAC is needed. Most everything device RV travelers need and use is now available in a 12-VDC version. Our original 1983 LD did not have a generator and we got along fine, 98% of the time. The other 2% was, well, interesting. Our 2003 LD came with a generator as standard equipment and, after eleven years of ownership, it has around 170 hours, much from the monthly driveway runs. The majority of the other hours are from when it was HOT and we did not have electric hookups.. We do our best to stay away from heat but sometimes, it's unavoidable and there is no nearby place to plug in for the afternoon. The generator also allows use of high wattage appliances or tools (vacuums, hair dryers drills, saws, etc). Our main reason for owning an LD is for travel, the secondary reason, just as important, it is our earthquake/catastrophe survival shelter. Living a 1/4 mile off the Northridge earthquakes's epicenter was not a fun experience. It showed how messed up things can get with a relalively minor quake. Watching how slowly it takes for other catastrophes to be aided and cleaned up, we want somewhere to live if our home is uninhabitable. Having good stocks of food and water is a great idea too. We have a forum member who moved her family into their LD after Hurricane Sandy blew most of their belongings and home away. We try to make sure the LD is always put to bed with full gas, propane and water tanks. If and when the Big One happens, it will take weeks or months to begin to get things back to near normal. We plan on moving into the LD, if necessary. With limited utilities and resources, it would be the best place to live efficiently plus, it's comfortable. Beats living in a tent. Having the generator will allow running our home refrigerator for days, along with our neighbors, which is what we did after the Northridge earthquake. Two half-hour generator runs, twice a day is all it took to keep things cold. It can be used for any construction or cleanup needs. 99% of our LD's electrical needs are satisfied by the three solar panels and four batteries. I still find great comfort knowing the generator is there and ready to run.Be prepared.Larry
Re: Batteries vs genset Reply #5 – May 27, 2014, 04:48:00 pm Yahoo Message Number: 146565I can't even imagine owning any kind of motorhome, let alone a Lazy Daze, without a generator. I think of all the times we pulled into a rest stop when the temp was over 100F and without the generator to run the air conditioner we would have cooked. When we traveled through the desert and the temp approached 120F, we needed to run the A/C while underway just to keep the interior comfortable. And that's with the dash air running full blast. Then there are the times you need to run the microwave, etc., etc. When we bought our first Laze Daze in 1975, generators weren't even an option. On some of the Laze Daze caravans we attended, there was a guy who actually built a generator into his 70's era Laze Daze. Believe me, he was the envy of ALL the caravan campers when he showed up. We even used his generator to run ice cream freezers for parties. In short, don't even think about trying to order your MB without a generator. I guarantee you will be sorry, and when it is time to sell, you will have a very difficult time selling it without a generator.Dick
Re: Bateries vs genset Reply #6 – May 27, 2014, 04:48:40 pm Yahoo Message Number: 146566Some good points already made. We travel a bit better than six months of the year - mostly summer months. It gets hot at lunch stops, rain and other storms will cause you to take a break off the road (part of our hurricane plan as we live in Florida), in the summer parks of all sorts can get unusually hot, battery issues pop up, our chassis air conditioner went out during a summer run (we kicked on the generator and ran the house air), etc. In my humble opinion I would not be without a generator. It has saved us some pretty uncomfortable situations.Bob in Florida SE 5, 30IB AE Named LIVHARDO (Live Hard, Die Old)
Re: Bateries vs genset Reply #7 – May 27, 2014, 04:57:15 pm Yahoo Message Number: 146567In theory, it sounds good. However, after eight years full timing, as a camp host this summer parked under beautiful Ponderosa Pines trees in Central Oregon, we are using our generator every day despite the fact that we have always depended on solar previously. The beauty of this combo is you are ready for everything. For the extra money, I definitely recommend a generator to supplement the solar.David (1998 MB LD)
Re: Bateries vs genset Reply #8 – May 27, 2014, 05:05:00 pm Yahoo Message Number: 146568A big DITTO on Larry's comments! Even if you don't live in a natural disaster-prone area and even if you don't plan right now to dry camp much, the generator can be very useful; when you need it, you need it!Also, as others have said, eliminating the generator and having extra batteries installed are not options with Lazy Daze; at least, they never have been in the past, so I'd make very sure you find out just what they will agree to do and not agree to do before making your final order. If there is any option on the solar set-up/equipment, I'd definitely do as Larry suggested and head to AM Solar an let them do the *whole job*.Joan
Re: Batteries vs genset Reply #9 – May 27, 2014, 05:17:09 pm Yahoo Message Number: 146569First, good luck getting the factory to delete the generator! Even assuming they'd delete it, as others have stated, it would be a mistake...you might run into an emergency situation where you'd be happy to have it and not having one will greatly diminish its resale value (as an example, we wouldn't consider buying a motorhome without a generator). Exercising it every month really isn't a big deal...when you're traveling, you can do it as you're traveling down the road. If you're going to be spending the vast majority of your time hooked up in RV parks, why add the second solar panel or additional after-market batteries? For the one or two days a year you might camp without hookups, IMO, you'll get much more use out of the generator.Linda Hylton
Re: Bateries vs genset Reply #10 – May 27, 2014, 07:50:04 pm Yahoo Message Number: 146570"If and when the Big One happens, it will take weeks or months to begin to get things back to near normal. We plan on moving into the LD, if necessary."And having been through one earthquake in my LD (Pennsylvania, summer of 2011), I can tell you from experience that there is no better place to ride out aftershocks than in a motorhome. The tires and suspension soak up the jolts very nicely, and the house is built to withstand a lot more swaying and jouncing on the highways than you're likely to see even in a severe quake.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels
Re: Bateries vs genset Reply #11 – May 27, 2014, 08:41:34 pm Yahoo Message Number: 146571If you break down on the side of the road in the heat, like I have, you will be really happy to have a generator. My dogs were real happy too.Langton
Re: Bateries vs genset Reply #12 – May 27, 2014, 08:42:28 pm Yahoo Message Number: 146572"If and when the Big One happens, it will take weeks or months to begin to get things back to near normal. We plan on moving into the LD, if necessary."And having been through one earthquake in my LD (Pennsylvania, summer of 2011), I can tell you from experience that there is no better place to ride out aftershocks than in a motorhome. The tires and suspension soak up the jolts very nicely, and the house is built to withstand a lot more swaying and jouncing on the highways than you're likely to see even in a severe quake.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels
Re: Bateries vs genset Reply #13 – May 27, 2014, 09:02:24 pm Yahoo Message Number: 146573Ian, I'm gonna buck the trend here and say I totally agree with you. If I could talk LD into it, which I doubt would be possible, I would do just exactly what you want to do.Lets remember that Ian lives in the Pacific NW (as I do) not in the desert SW or Florida. The ONLY times we ran our generator was to do the regular maintenance, and we boondocked for weeks at a time using only 200 w solar and the standard 220 AH batteries. Granted, if you boondock in summer in the desert, want an emergency power source for outages, want to watch TV all day while camping, can't stand temps over 72 or worry about resale value, a generator is probably a good idea. We recently sold our 2000 MB, so I problbly shouldn't be even sticking my nose in, but still think this is a really good resource for many RV related discussions. We went to a 5th wheel (Montana High Country 293RK) and one thing I was happy about is that a generator was not standard. Unfortunately, it is also not in any way ready for boondocking. I have already changed out the 1 small 12V battery for a pair of Costco golf cart batteries (lots of room to add 2 more in future) and plan to add 300 W of solar, but one thing I will not even think of adding (even tho there is place designated for one) is a generator. When I'm out camping, peace and QUIET is of most importance to me. I HATE generators! Rich Gort - ex 2000 MB - Now SOB 5th wheel - Thanks for 13 years of a great forum. Now, back to lurking
Re: Bateries vs genset Reply #14 – May 27, 2014, 09:23:22 pm Yahoo Message Number: 146574"When we order our 27 MB we will order the 2nd solar panel and would like to double the house battery bank to 440 AH and not have a genset." I agree with others here as far as resale-ability and camping limitations. Still, we had an '83 FL for 19 yrs with no generator. Since it was an uncommon option back then, it's resale was really unaffected, but we managed, planning around by camping with hookups when the roof-air was a must, and avoiding high temps as much as possible. Here's a thought - get a used model in good condition, remove and sell the generator, build a large battery box in it's place and wire it up. That way you avoid the double depreciation of a new model equipped in an uncommon fashion, gain extra storage, spend less upfront with a good return on the generator sale! And LD is unlikely to honor your request anyway.Steve
Re: Bateries vs genset Reply #15 – May 27, 2014, 09:35:57 pm Yahoo Message Number: 146575"...if you boondock in summer in the desert, want an emergency power source for outages, want to watch TV all day while camping, can't stand temps over 72 or worry about resale value..." ---Well, I don't boondock in the summer in the desert, I don't have a TV in the rig at all, I'm OK with hot weather (much prefer it to COLD!), and resale isn't on my radar. (Having the rig as an 'escape pod' *is* important to me.)I do travel in every season in several different locations and in a variety of weather, and since I rarely hook up, I do value the generator for occasional use to run the AC, the microwave, the small space heater, my air compressor, and anything else that might need 'juice'. I have 200W of solar and two AGMs; this set-up supplies most of my meager power needs, but there have been many occasions when using the generator has been a very practical and desirable option.If one doesn't plan to travel anywhere but locations with cool and/or dry climates and/or where the sun shines reliably and/or also plans to camp with hookups, one might never miss having a generator. Like most everything else, of course, the 'generator or not?' is a choice that each person has to make for himself/herself based on travel and camping styles and personal preferences.However, the issue might well be moot because I would be flat out gobsmacked if one could order a new LD without one, which is why it has been suggested that Ian and Jean check out what's possible and what's 'wishful thinking' before placing an order.As ever, YMMV.Joan
Re: Bateries vs genset Reply #16 – May 28, 2014, 01:01:22 am Yahoo Message Number: 146579It probably depends greatly on how you actually use your motorhome. Our motorhome experience except for the first two years in California was all while living in the PNW. Old Town Idaho. Spokane Washington. Merlin and Eugene Oregon. We used our generator all the time while living up there. Especially as members of the Northwestern Bus Nuts where our monthly outings were in parking lots, airports, etc. Rarely did we have hookups, and believe it or not it can get really hot and humid in the PNW. Especially in Spokane. Even more so when parked on blacktop with no shade. Our homes in those three states all had air conditioning and there were many days when the cost was worth it just for that day. You don't need desert to be miserable when camping.DickFrom: lifewithalazydazerv@yahoogroups.com [mailto:lifewithalazydazerv@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2014 6:02 PM To: ianandjean@... [lifewithalazydazerv] Subject: Re: [LD] Bateries vs genset Ian, I'm gonna buck the trend here and say I totally agree with you. If I could talk LD into it, which I doubt would be possible, I would do just exactly what you want to do.Lets remember that Ian lives in the Pacific NW (as I do) not in the desert SW or Florida. The ONLY times we ran our generator was to do the regular maintenance, and we boondocked for weeks at a time using only 200 w solar and the standard 220 AH batteries. Granted, if you boondock in summer in the desert, want an emergency power source for outages, want to watch TV all day while camping, can't stand temps over 72 or worry about resale value, a generator is probably a good idea.
Re: Bateries vs genset Reply #17 – May 28, 2014, 12:06:43 pm Yahoo Message Number: 146583We don't use the genset often, especially now that we've added a TurboKool evaporative cooler.Yonder is equipped for boondocking with 400W solar, 450AH battery, and Prosine 2000 "whole house" inverter/charger. We run the microwave and everything else, save the air conditioner, with the inverter. Before the TurboKook, we used to use the genset/AC to keep the dog cool while shopping or in a restaurant. Now we use the genset to give the spiders a place to make webs.When the factory installs their one or two panels, besides using barely adequate wiring, they also do not arrange the array optimally for upgrading later. As others have already said, skip the factory solar if you might want a bigger system later on.A bit more on the TurboKool, we live in high and dry NV, so the T-K works really well to keep things comfy. On a recent trip we found CA more humid than expected, with relative humidity 70 - 80%. I tested the T-K and found it still worthwhile to run, providing a temperature drop of 4 - 8 degrees measured at the unit. That small drop made the rear lounge area more tolerable, but did less for the rest of the interior. Still, since we sleep on the "big bed", a gently night time breeze was welcome. :c) With the T-K on low (I added a variable speed control, replacing the "High - Low" switch) and the front Fantastic fan also on low (the FF is installed where the forward escape hatch used to be), we can have a cool breeze through the length of the LD.best,bumper
Re: Bateries vs genset Reply #18 – May 28, 2014, 01:09:14 pm Yahoo Message Number: 146587Bob, Thank you for your comments. I agree that it is always good to have a back up systen, it does give more flexibility. A question though on charging the chassis battery, and mind that I come from a boating background, I would have thought that there would be a switch, such as there is on most boats, where you can parellel both battery banks to put charge in the "low" battery, or if you are running a charger direct the output into the low battery only. No need for long jumper cables!The old Delco Remy alternators, rated at 55 amps rarely put that out, even to a flat battery. I have a Balmar 100 amp alternator on the boat and as long as the engine rpm is at least 1500 I get the full 100 amps providing the batteries are at a charge state where they will accept that much current. Flooded bateries will not accept that much amperage however AGM batteries will. I wonder why a 155 amp alternator on the engine if that much amperage cannot be used? That's for someone more knowledgeable that me to answer.I think then, that the answer is to keep the genset.Ian
Re: Bateries vs genset Reply #19 – May 28, 2014, 01:22:36 pm Yahoo Message Number: 146588Rich, I appreciate your comments. Like you, I hate the sound of a genset starting up across the harbor from where i am anchored. Our boat, "Stargazer" is a 34 ft 1978 Mainship trawler and we regularly take trips to Desolation Sound and the Broughtons up at the north end of Vancouver Island and are out for a month or more at a time. We used to have a genset but I took it out in favor of a larger battery bank. I think that we will probably go with a second solar panel as I don't think it likely that we would go with a 3-4 panel array.IanOn , "ianandjean@..." wrote:
Re: Bateries vs genset Reply #20 – May 28, 2014, 01:37:56 pm Yahoo Message Number: 146589Joan, Thanks for your comments. I think most of our LD use will be in the summer in the Pacific Northwest, although we do want to do the trans Canada all the way across. We might do Phoenix or Palm Springs in the winter but never in the summer. Not likely to drive in 20 miles on a logging road to an alpine lake for a week of trout fishing either. Mostly we will do National parks, etc.I talked with Todd yesterday, making an appointment with him for July 2, and asked about the genset/battery question. He did not hang up on me but indicated we could discuss as he has known some people who have doubled their battery capacity. Time will tell.Ian
Re: Bateries vs genset Reply #21 – May 28, 2014, 01:48:17 pm Yahoo Message Number: 146590Larry, Thanks, I like you comments about using the LD as an emergency shelter, that is something that I hadn't thought about. Unfortunately we don;t have the space to park the rig at home but the closest storage facility is only about 2 miles away. Better than our boat which is 12 miles away.IanOn , "ianandjean@..." wrote:
Re: Bateries vs genset Reply #22 – May 28, 2014, 01:52:34 pm Yahoo Message Number: 146592The alternator on the engine is for the engine battery. Charging a bank of motorhome batteries was only a secondary consideration. Even so, I would think that the coach batteries could be charged at a fairly high amperage rate, depending upon the gauge of wire going from the relay or isolator back to the coach. The alternator on our last motorhome (a SOB) had two type-24 batteries for the coach. The alternator on the Chevrolet 454 could bring them up to full charge fairly quickly. It used a diode isolator on the output of the alternator.Dick
Re: Bateries vs genset Reply #23 – May 28, 2014, 03:04:34 pm Yahoo Message Number: 146595Please post the results of your 'generator' discussion with the factory; thanks.Joan(Heading out to exercise the generator... ;-) )
Re: Bateries vs genset Reply #24 – May 28, 2014, 04:22:40 pm Yahoo Message Number: 146601Good tips, thanks Bumper :-)The TurboKool in our SOB is in the back over the kitchen area, with a Fantastic Fan in the other vent over the living area (there are only 2 vents, it's a very small rig). The 80+130w solar panels keep up with it pretty well on the kinds of days where the cooler is useful. Our first plan when we take delivery of our '15 Twin King is to take it down to Solar Mike (The Sun Works) in Slab City for an upgrade to maybe swap out the single panel with a pair of larger wattage ones. He did our last two rigs and lives down there full time so he has an excellent grasp on what it takes to stay comfy in the desert.
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