Setting up for towing January 02, 2014, 10:00:46 am Yahoo Message Number: 144363Well with retirement close at hand it looks like extended trips are on the way! We have a 2002 Honda CRV (about 3800 lbs dry) and a 1995 23.5TK (460 cu in) with a Banks exhaust and transmission system.I'd like suggestions on the best way to hook-up these vehicles for towing.Do I need to beef-up the hitch? What tow bar and braking system works well? Should I consider a tow dolly?Thanks
Re: Setting up for towing Reply #1 – January 02, 2014, 01:21:04 pm Yahoo Message Number: 144364Although we have been on the road for seven years as full-timers, I am a newbie for hitch and tow, The first few years we didn't have a car so we used our bicycles to get around at a park. Then, we wisely brought a CRV and my wife drove it for another two years as we travelled from point to point. That worked out great until my wife wanted to spend more time with the kids and grandchildren. So, in September we finally ponied up the funds I spent $3200 to hitch our 2009 Honda CRV with Road Master Falcon Hitch Bar and Blue Ox receptor and a SMI Duo brake system. I am very happy with the results so far.The reason for using the Blue Ox as the receptor on the Honda is that I didn't want the Roadmaster bracket on the front of the car. I realize one can take it off, but the Blue Ox fitting is so easy to work with that one hardly knows it is there. So, my wife is a happy camper, and I am free to travel wherever so long as it's close to an airport.Good luck on your purchase!On Thursday, January 2, 2014 8:00 AM, "ted_shred@..." wrote:
Re: Setting up for towing Reply #2 – January 02, 2014, 07:51:11 pm Yahoo Message Number: 144365We have a LD 2000 26.5 IB, and a 2008 CRV. Used standard hitch. Blue Ox tow bar and base plate, and US Gear braking system. It was pricey to have installed, but we like it a lot. One thing we did have done was to change the wiring outlet to the bumper from the "fake" spare tire holder. We had trouble with the wires pulling loose with the cover swinging, etc. Had installation done in AZ.Blue Ox factory in Pender, NE, is an excellent place for installation if you are in the area, or in our case we have stopped twice to have the equipment checked (for a modest fee of $25.) with new gaskets or whatever. The camp ground is free for customers, and Escapees, and is a very nice stop- though a bit out of the way. Norma and Kent Taylor
Re: Setting up for towing Reply #3 – January 02, 2014, 08:13:46 pm Yahoo Message Number: 144366I do not know if either can be towed flat. all 4 tires on the ground. You would most likly also need two toe rigs for the DIFFERENT rigs. So it might be to your advantage to use a toe trailer where only the front tires are on the trailer. The big disadvantage to this is having a place to store the trailer when not in use. The big advantage is the trailer has it's own brakes and this is a must for the weight being toed. And a light package with Magnets make wiring simple.
Re: Setting up for towing Reply #4 – January 03, 2014, 12:32:24 am Yahoo Message Number: 144368We have a 2013 31 IB under construction and expect to get ORWAN (Our Rig Without A Name (yet)) in Feb/Apr. We traded out our 2011 Rav 4 for a 2011 CRV in Nov as mods on the Rav4 for flat towing would have most likely voided the warranty. The CRV owners manual describes the procedures for flat-towing. We went with a Roadmaster Falcon All Terrain Tow bar and base plate. The A-T towbar was a bit more than the Falcon 2, but the release levers vs buttons and the more flexible toad attachments seemed better solutions. We opted for a standard 7 pin plug which included a fused charge line for the battery (the Mothership will add for installation). We had them installed at Cramping World in Rocklin because of their $29 install sale. Still waffling over the braking system but leaning toward the SMI Stay-in-Play. The Roadmaster Master Brake with full proportional breaking sounds good: I am unsure of the compressor placement in the limited storage in the rig and having a compressed air line floating in the breeze between the rig and toad. After watching the installation video for Invisibrake two words came to mind: Rube Goldberg (as the staff said at CW: who?, but I date myself). LD's class III hitch is listed for 4,000#. I haven't weighed the CRV yet, but expect it to come in under that including the tow bar. I'd prefer adding a class IV hitch, but that will depend on the final weight of the LD. In 25+ years of trailer towing I've always stayed under 85-90% GVWR/GCVR, but this will stretch that target. I thought about a dolly- found an excellent one that only added about 1,200# to the equation. As someone else said , "mind the ounces and the pounds will take care of themselves". The next two years and 25,000 miles promise to prove interesting......Just my $.0307 worth (after inflation adjustment).joelFrom: "ted_shred@..." To: lifewithalazydazerv@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2014 8:00 AM Subject: [LD] Setting up for towing
Re: Setting up for towing Reply #5 – January 03, 2014, 10:21:50 am Yahoo Message Number: 144370I will add here that I looked up the hitch capacity in my 1995 LD manual and it said "3,000 lbs". So it does indeed look like a rebuild is in order for the hitch.
Re: Setting up for towing Reply #6 – January 03, 2014, 10:29:08 am Yahoo Message Number: 1443712013 Manual (we have a 31 TB) says 4,000lbs with 350lbs tongue weight maxBill Bussiere
Re: Setting up for towing Reply #7 – January 03, 2014, 10:38:34 am Yahoo Message Number: 144372Ted, you need to follow a decision tree. First, read your owner's manual for the CRV. Does it state that your year, make and model is tow-able for travel distances and speeds with all 4 wheels on the ground? I was once told by a Hyundai dealer that their cars were flat tow-able. I read the manual, which confirmed that it could be done, but limited the towing to 15 mph for no more than 15 miles. My manual trans Subaru can be flat towed, but the automatic trans model cannot. If your owner's manual does not state it, do not trust other sources such as the Motor Home annual listing. Second, if you can flat tow, you need to pick a tow plate, a tow bar and a braking system, plus you need to decide about tail lighting. Both Blue Ox and Roadmaster are well thought-of here for the tow bar and tow plate. Braking systems that rely on a box that you slip in place when you tow may work, but are more hassle, and in my experience do not work as well as a built-in system such as SMI or US Gear. I now have US Gear and am very happy with it. Third, hitch weight limits... It is probably 4000 pounds, but I think some older rigs had a limit of 3500 pounds. Check the weight of your CRV, fully loaded for travel with a full gas tank. My expectation is that if your vehicle has a dry weight of 3800 pounds, once you add fluids (coolant, oils, gas) you will be above 4000 pounds. That means that if you cannot safely tow it with the existing hitch. On a positive side, I think your dry weight estimate of 3800 pounds may be high. I thought the CRV's were lighter than that. A stronger hitch can be fabricated and added. A reputable towing equipment shop can design, fabricate and install the hitch, but a stronger hitch means a considerable amount of weight being added, all on the rear axle. There are several weight factors to check. You need to know the combined weight of fluids, possessions, passengers and fuel, tow equipment, and towed vehicle. Check that against the weight limit for your RV. On my 2008, that is 20,000 pounds. Next, the weight of what you are towing - car, tow plate, fluids, etc. - must not exceed the rated weight of the hitch. Third, know the weight limit of your rear axle and compare that to the measured weight of your rig, fully loaded including gas and water, passengers and possessions, then take the weight of the tow bar and beefed up hitch, add them together, multiply by 1.5 because they are acting on the end of a lever that has the rear axle as the fulcrum, and compare that to the allowable rear axle limit. Fourth, the lights... There seem to be two ways of doing this. Some carry auxiliary lights that mount magnetically or on a light bar. Some use a diode kit and modify their vehicle lighting system to power the built-in tail lights. There are pros and cons to both options. Using a dolly or a trailer has some advantages. A trailer means you can back up. A trailer means any vehicle can be brought with you. A trailer has its own braking system and lights. A dolly should not be backed very much but may be able to be backed a little. A dolly increases the number of vehicles that can be brought with you as compared to flat towing. Both a dolly and a trailer add significant weight to your system. Most of us who tow, flat tow, using neither dolly nor trailer, and we have carefully chosen the vehicle we are towing to be certain that it can be towed, and that we are within all weight criteria. Just for illustration, my front axle, loaded, weighs 4600 pounds. My rear axle is 9500 pounds, for a vehicle total of 14,100 pounds. That means I can add no more than 5900 pounds to my system. If I were to take a car weighing 3800 pounds, another 200 pounds of fluids, a 100 pound tow bar, a 60 pound tow hitch, add 40 pounds of tools to the car, and I have 4200 pounds that I am dragging behind me. If I add 500 pounds for a beefed up hitch, I have 1200 pounds left for a trailer or dolly before I would exceed my absolute limit of 20,000 pounds. Why have I talked so much about weight? First, your vehicle is engineered to be reliable if well maintained, only within those limits. The more the load, the faster the wear, and the greater the chance of failure of engine, cooling, braking, transmission, or drive train. Second, if you are involved in an accident and the investigation reveals that you are overweight, you might be held legally liable for the accident, your insurance carrier may decline coverage, and criminal charges might be brought against you. It is a big deal. Enough doom and gloom. Here is the bright side. As far as I know, you CAN flat tow a CRV. I am not sure, but I think your curb weight will be below 4000 pounds. Assuming that you verified both of these, you should be able to add a Blue Ox or Roadmaster tow plate and tow bar, add lights, add a braking system, and happily and safely tow your way around the country. Many of us do so.Ken F in NM
Re: Setting up for towing Reply #8 – January 03, 2014, 10:54:03 am Yahoo Message Number: 144373Since you're starting from scratch you might also consider a small, light auto hauler trailer. We pull a 2008 Scion XB behind our 1999 26.5 MB on a trailer and it works great. The trailer is 12' and has a steel and mesh deck, so it's lighter than one with wood decking. It has tandem wheels and electric brakes.The advantage is that there are no modifications to the car, no toad braking system to configure, etc. We're happy that we went the trailer route.Charlie 1999 26.5 MB "Gandalf the Grey"
Re: Setting up for towing Reply #9 – January 03, 2014, 12:09:28 pm Yahoo Message Number: 144374I looked it up just now. The 2002 CRV with automatic trans is 3347 lbs.I do appreciate all the great responses here!
Re: Setting up for towing Reply #10 – January 03, 2014, 12:12:32 pm Yahoo Message Number: 144375Wow...thanks Ken!
Re: Setting up for towing Reply #11 – January 03, 2014, 12:24:56 pm Yahoo Message Number: 144376I don't know the towing capability of your LD, but do have a little experience with tow bars and "4-down" towing. I have a 2000 Jeep Cherokee (approx. 3700 lbs) that I have towed over 150K miles; much of it behind a 2005 MB. The Jeep is equipped with a Blue-Ox base plate as it is simple and has a lot less parts than the Roadmaster unit. I have always used a RoadMaster Sterling tow bar that has Blue Ox feet. (Now have the second Sterling. The first one wore out at about 90K miles.) Originally I used a Brake Buddy but was not happy with it. (Doesn't work well when going down hills.) For the last 100K miles have had a US Gear Universal Tow Brake in the Jeep. It worked great but has now died and needs to be replaced. Considering the SMI unit. If you tow "4-down" you need to learn the rules; like you cannot backup (or at least not much). Also expect to get more wear on the front tires of the towed vehicle. The normal "toe in" of the front wheels will generally keep them going straight ahead, however, they tend to wander a bit. Also, there are situations in which the front tires will "scrub." Hitting large bumps can do it. You need to turn wide corners so that the towed vehicle tracks the motorhome well. Turning too tight can cause the front wheels of the towed vehicle to "go into lockup" in one direction or the other and the tires will slide. This causes flat spots on the tires that are very noticeable when you drive the towed vehicle. (Been there twice.) A steering stabilizer, with limited control, on the towed vehicle will help keep the wheels going in the right direction. My alignment mechanic told me that there were some cars that could not be towed 4-down without a stabilizer as the frontend was "too loose."Doug Baker
Re: Setting up for towing Reply #12 – January 03, 2014, 12:57:02 pm Yahoo Message Number: 144378Ken, thank you for your well-reasoned, logical, 'one-step-at-a-time-to-get-the-whole-picture' post; you presented very valuable - and essential - information for anyone considering towing a vehicle.Joan
Re: Setting up for towing Reply #13 – January 03, 2014, 01:39:20 pm Yahoo Message Number: 144380I have a contribution to the discussion because I towed an '05 crv on our '01 MB for a while. After a season or two, I've given up towing altogether. We seldom to spend more than a couple days before moving on, so we seldom needed a car. I was never comfortable with the task.I'm left with some equipment that maybe somebody will buy. The Sterling towbar seemed excellent. Never a minute trouble. There is also a break-inna-box. I won't be saying anything nice about that.Send me an email at jpwoodruff at gmail if you want to discuss the Sterling parts.John
Re: Setting up for towing Reply #14 – January 03, 2014, 02:12:08 pm Yahoo Message Number: 144381Ted are you looking at the amount of weight the can be put on the hitch ball or the amount of weight that the hitch can pull. They are two entirely different things
Re: Setting up for towing Reply #15 – January 05, 2014, 10:55:34 am Yahoo Message Number: 144408One minor nit to pick. Regarding the possibility that your insurance company might decline coverage if you are overweight and involved in an accident. It seems that a lot of folks believe this and it simply is not the case. I retired from working in the property casualty insurance field and can tell you that there is no wording in an auto/RV policy that would allow them to decline coverage because you are overweight.They won't decline coverage if you have an accident because of some do it yourself project type work either. Lets say you replace your brakes yourself, they fail and you have an accident. It will be covered. In fact, that type of accident makes the life of the claims person a bit easier because they don't have to think about going after the brake shop that did the work.Of course, the lawyer for the injured party will use that against you in making a case for negligence but that is a different story.To be clear I am not suggesting that you operate your RV overweight. However, how many of those on the road do you think are overweight and don't know it?To be clearJim C
Re: Setting up for towing Reply #16 – January 05, 2014, 01:54:10 pm Yahoo Message Number: 144412In 2000 just before I retired I bought a Big Foot slide-in camper. It was used and I got it from a privite party. The tag on the back said the unit weight was 2400 with STANDERD equipment. I mounted it on a Dodge Cummings 3/4 ton truck. I weighted the unit after it was put togeather. I was about 11,000. The truck had a GVW of 8,800. If you worked the math on the truck it was only to carry 1,700 in the box. Even a pop top would have weighted this much. I changed the tires out to 265-85x16 which upped the rating on the truck another 800#. The truck was now ratted to carry 9,600. It was considered a 1 ton w/ single rear tire, not duely. (This was because Dodge on a 3/4 ton with Cummings engine got all 1 ton running gear. The short fall was tires and not having a duely rear end. On the way to UT one trip I lost the tread of a rear tire as if it was a recap. The steel belting did $4.000+ damage to the rear quarter pannel section. The tire was still inflatted and had 82# of air. The tire was not under inflatted. What caused the problem? ? ? ? ? The tire was shipped to Ohio by GY and inspected and Good Year payed all cost and repaired the truck. In letter they said they would take care of all cost BUT did not assume responsability 8 years later I lost a Michlyan rear tire. This time the tire BLUE. BANG.The tire only had 20% wear. Cause I never realy know. Insurance took care of the $6,000+ bill and it was not an accident just body damage. I confronted a Big Foot dealer at a show about the weight. There excuse was the tag said "WITH STANDARD EQUIPMENT" They built the camper with jacks, air, microwave. on and on. These are not STANDARD EQUIPMENT. nice way of saying the camper is light. They all do the same.I NOW OWN A LAZY DAYZ 450, 24 FOOT. In 2012 I took the 24' LD 450 to Alaska for a 14 week trip 10,500 miles. When l left Denver I weighted the MH and I was obout 900# under the rated weight for each axle. Had it been a 350 I would have been over weight.
Re: Setting up for towing Reply #17 – January 06, 2014, 08:38:41 am Yahoo Message Number: 144417Jim C said "Regarding the possibility that your insurance company might decline coverage if you are overweight and involved in an accident. It seems that a lot of folks believe this and it simply is not the case." We are going to have to agree to disagree. The legal term is "contributory negligence". If you are over the max weight limit for your vehicle, and that weight contributes to an accident, that is no different than speeding, driving on the wrong side of the road, etc. If the accident causes someone's death a manslaughter charge can be brought against you.I have no direct evidence of an insurance company declining coverage due to excess weight. However, in every accident reconstruction I did, about 2/3 of which were for an insurance company, the vehicle was checked for anything that the owner might have done to disable or compromise safety equipment. That always included checking the weight of the vehicle. So - those insurance companies were paying me, and others, to determine if the vehicle might have been overweight. They would not have done so unless that was a factor in their considerations.Ken F in NM
Re: Setting up for towing Reply #18 – January 07, 2014, 12:01:19 pm Yahoo Message Number: 144431Ken, I don't think we are in disagreement. I was addressing insurance coverage. Your reply starts by discussing criminal charges not civil issues. Yes, you could be charged criminally and there are a variety of issues with that. I also worked in the criminal justice system for a decade and have some knowledge in that arena.With insurance, I was involved in civil litigation and was involved with expert witnesses. We hired those people to help us investigate circumstances surrounding an accident including any negligent issues regardless of who caused them. That helped us to understand our position and defend the case. The only circumstance that I am aware of that might cause a denial of coverage is if the accident was intentional. In other words if you ran someone over on purpose and even then the insurer would have to prove intent if challenged by their insured.All I am trying to say is that I often see folks suggesting a set of circumstances that might cause them to be denied coverage but being overweight even knowingly isn't one of them. To deny coverage to an insured for damages he/she caused is a high bar for an insurer to get over.
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