LPG propane Convertion August 23, 2013, 09:11:57 pm Yahoo Message Number: 142178My last RV was not a Lazy Daze and I did a propane duel conversion I'm looking for pictures of propane tank(s) installation on lazy days for propane fuel conversion of a 1995 vintage rig. Measurements of the installation location on the rig would be greatly appreciated. If any one would like to do a convertion to run on propane and gas I have in depth knowledge to share.
Re: LPG propane Convertion Reply #2 – August 23, 2013, 11:05:55 pm Yahoo Message Number: 142181I m not sure I understand "why". Please elaborate. Do you mean why the Convertion or why do I need the measurements and picture. I am looking at buying a lazy daze 22 and wanted to know if my propane tanks will fit under it.Best regards,AndrewQuote On 2013-08-23, at 7:39 PM, "Roger" r.nickey@...> wrote:Why?
Re: LPG propane Convertion Reply #3 – August 23, 2013, 11:10:51 pm Yahoo Message Number: 142182Propane is cheaper and burns so clean you can decrease the frequency of oil changes not to mention the engine will last 3 times longer and does not require the fuel pump to run and the increased propane capacity can be tapped into the house propane for extended dry camping. The generator can also be adapted for propane. One cheaper fuel source for everything on board.Best regards,AndrewQuote On 2013-08-23, at 9:06 PM, "A. M." andrewmccluskey@...> wrote: I m not sure I understand "why". Please elaborate. Do you mean why the Convertion or why do I need the measurements and picture. I am looking at buying a lazy daze 22 and wanted to know if my propane tanks will fit under it.Best regards,AndrewOn 2013-08-23, at 7:39 PM, "Roger" r.nickey@...> wrote:Why?
Re: LPG propane Convertion Reply #4 – August 24, 2013, 12:22:56 am Yahoo Message Number: 142183"My last RV was not a Lazy Daze and I did a propane duel conversion I'm looking for pictures of propane tank(s) installation on lazy days for propane fuel conversion of a 1995 vintage rig" I don't ever remember seeing an LD propane conversion, especially on a fuel injected model. Interesting, they can work very well when tuned. Not sure if there is going to be an integration problem with chassis computer, as all 1995 models have electronically shifted transmissions. I'm sure the aftermarket has solutions. As to your question, the space available is going to be different on every length and floor plan. In 1995, LD made 8 or 9 variations, utilizing either a Ford or Chevy chassis. The only way you are going to find out how much space is available is to crawl under the rig of your interest, with a measuring tape. The 22' T/K has a good size space at the rear, all the 26.5' models will have more but the spaces may not be usable, depending on the existing tank's dimensions. Removing the existing fuel tank will provide even more space, unless it is going to be a dual-fuel system. If so, one of the 26.5' models would be a good choice. Depending on where you live, a local LD GTG would be a good place to get some ideas and take some measurements.Is is an Impco system? Installed several of these, many decades ago. http://www.nashfuel.com/kitimages.asp?ID=61370369791984 Is your one of these? http://www.nashfuel.com/kitimages.asp?ID=69277779459953Larry
Re: LPG propane Convertion Reply #5 – August 24, 2013, 01:16:05 am Yahoo Message Number: 142184It would be a 22 ft rear bath. And aftermarket is plug and play. It will be a closed loop mixer set up.Chevy 350 chassisBest regards,Andrew
Re: LPG propane Convertion Reply #6 – August 24, 2013, 01:30:32 am Yahoo Message Number: 142185I don t have access to the rig of interest it is 1000 miles from me. I was hoping to get the sizes from some one on this site that owns one. I'm an industrial mechanic and know exactly how to do the Convertion. My tanks are 12" diameter 13" counting the brackets and 50" long.Best regards,Andrew
Re: LPG propane Convertion Reply #7 – August 24, 2013, 03:33:39 pm Yahoo Message Number: 142187Andrew, I have a 1991 26', rear bath. If you are near the LA area come by and measure. I would be interested in learning more about propane conversions. Do you do conversions? Dale.
Re: LPG propane Convertion Reply #8 – August 24, 2013, 04:39:18 pm Yahoo Message Number: 142188I learned from a technician at Proquip sales in Canada. I have done a few under his direction. I am an industrial mechanic by trade so it was a small leap for me. I am in northern Alberta Canada and the rig that I want is in the USA. Unfortunately I will not be in the area to measure yours but if you know the distance between the frame rails and the body work and the length between braces I can use that information.Is yours a chevy/GMC? Or ford? Doing your own will cost $2500 in materials. I have a two tank set up to balance the load but one larger diameter tank would hold as much propane for half the cost of the two tanks......but then it would need to be mounted at the back. There is a lot of resources on LPG conversion and a lot of misinformation too. I would recommend that you start by reading up a bit and ask me some questions.But I will get some basics down for you. LPG runs cleaner, so clean with out emotions equipment you can pass a smog detection test. Your combustible by products are cleaner so your oil will hold up longer and engine life would double no problem actually triple, LPG has less energy in it so a 10% loss in power but in new autos can hardly be felt with higher compression as propane likes 14:1 and you rig will be at 8or9 to 1. It burns slower so ignition advance is required to start the burn earlier to keep from burning up your exhaust valves. All stuff is available to make your rig duel fuel on a switch. It is not hard but plan on tooling around for a week so you don t get over whelmed. Your Convertion would involve bolting a propane throttle on top of you existing throttle body, tanks, valves, vaporizer, ignition advance, fuel injection shut off emulator, spark plugs of a different heat range and some bits and pieces. I did mine on the road one part at a time with basic tools and an angle grinder. I installed a fuel mix monitor /feed back system and taped into the O2 sensor so my rig had a closed loop propane set up like the gas to get even better milage.Best regards,Andrew
Re: LPG propane Convertion Reply #9 – August 24, 2013, 07:05:57 pm Yahoo Message Number: 142191It is an impco feed back systemBest regards,Andrew
Re: LPG propane conversion Reply #10 – August 24, 2013, 10:02:49 pm Yahoo Message Number: 142192"LPG has less energy in it so a 10% loss in power but in new autos can hardly be felt..." I believe you... with respect to modern cars. On the other hand, as the former owner of a Chevy 350-based 22' Lazy Daze, I can tell you that the 350 c.i.d. V8 is underpowered when trying to move a 5-ton motorhome, and I would definitely NOT want to sacrifice 10% of that engine's already minimal horsepower. As for doubling or tripling the engine's life... again, that may be true if a new or late-model vehicle is converted to propane. And if it's a car that will be driven fifteen thousand miles a year, or a fleet truck that will rack up triple or quadruple that many miles, the extended engine life may be worthwhile. But you're talking about a 20+ year old motorhome that has already seen many tens of thousands of miles. It's already well worn. How much good will a propane conversion now do it? Industry statistics show that an average RV logs about 6,000 miles a year. That means the chassis will outlast the owner in the majority of cases. Again, this is not a fleet truck that racks up 50,000 miles a year. So how useful is it to double or triple the lifespan of the engine, when it's already longer than necessary for RVing purposes? Another thing to think about: converting the engine to propane means also converting the generator to propane--or replacing it--unless you intend to maintain dual fuel systems and carry both propane and gasoline tanks. But doing that would impose a substantial weight penalty, and that means not only lower usable CCC, but a performance penalty as well... in a rig that is already a marginal performer. Now, you may want to go ahead with this as a hobby project, just to see whether it can be done. Fine. But in terms of practical benefits, it's hard to see a net gain. Just my two cents' worth.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: LPG propane conversion Reply #11 – August 25, 2013, 12:34:43 am Yahoo Message Number: 142193How much mileage was on your rig? I had a plugged up catalytic converter on my 1990 dodge 318. Once I replaced it, it felt like I pulled out a cork from the exhaust. A failed O2 sensor can cause your cat to plug up but allot of older rigs are just due for a new one. There is no question this can be done. This is not just a hobby. The duel conversion keeps the original TBI and uses an emulator to simulate the injector function to the ECM and the TB is still used as the throttle because the propane mixer mounted on top of it operates on vacuum from the TB. The transmission does not care where the fuel is coming from. The transmission is looking at things like rpm, load, and throttle position. You are absolutely correct on the average person's rig. There is the rub! Some people drive much more or would drive more if it cost less in fuel. Doing a conversion will in effect put engine wear into remission so it will easily double your engine life. I have absolutely no reservations putting a conversion on an older rig especially the Chevy that is good for 500000 km with out a conversion if you tend to the maintenance. The rig I am considering has 60000 miles on it. Cleaner oil means seals don't wear as much in addition to internal parts wear, clean valves improves performance. Oil passages stay clear and oil changes become less frequent and clean oil means less friction, less heat and less wear. I know that it is a real pain to have a perfectly good motor with a leaking crank seal next to the transmission as a maintenance example. Propane does not rot and does not require a fuel pump. I did log allot of miles in my old rig and saved 40% on my fuel costs in addition to extending my oil changes. I am reusing most of the equipment from my old rig to reduce some of the conversion cost. Here is the thing on weight penalty...you already are toting a propane tank around. Swap it out for a larger one or get a larger one from the factory and the weight difference and cost is marginal. On a duel conversion driving with the gas tank only as a reserve at 1/8 or less of a tank is no real sweat. The gas tank is really light when empty. If you really want to convert the generator it is about $100.00 in hardware and you can tap into the propane or still run the generator on gas too. The 350 was not intended to be a performer in a 5000 LB rig, that is what the 454 is for but putting some headers on it may open it up a bit for a small cost to improve fuel consumption and increase power. The only real deterrent is the cost to amount of mileage. On the power thing you can tap into the gas at any time at the stab of a button to tackle a hill or accelerate in town with some thing in tow, but lets face it if you are going to tow get the 454 and convert it if you are a high mileage kind of RV person. Maybe it is because I am buying gas in Canada at up to $140/Liter (not sure what that converts to) and I don't really see my rig as a performance machine. I don't expect to get there fast but to get there cheap and I don't tow any thing. Drag strip any one! If you are a hardcore dry camper like me having 160 Liters of propane on top of your usual tank is not a bad idea when the fall hits in Northern Alberta Canada and your catalytic heater, house furnace, ac heat strip, generator, ceramic heater and electric blanket are all going at the same time and the propane suppliers are closed till Tuesday for a long weekend and its Friday night. Been there done that! The LPG components on old rigs can be moved to newer vehicles with exceptions for when TBI was changed to multiport fuel injection. Then it is a new ball game. You can transfer the fuel tanks that take up 1/2 the conversion cost anyway if you do your own. So it is not the life of the RV to consider but the life of the conversion equipment. Also the conversion adds value to the motor-home and I would expect to get back half the value of a conversion sold with the vehicle. In my case I do my own so I break even if you don't count my time but it is fun for me. I would actually used it as a selling feature to the new owner...extended motor life, cheaper fuel, longer dry camping...blah blah blah I did convert a 1993 23 footer with the 454 Chevy not a LD rig and it purred like a kitten and ran like a bull. It ran smoother on LPG even after I cleaned the gas TBI. We did increase the compression so the motor when on gas could only run on medium to premium grade but it did not matter as propane was intended as the primary fuel source. The higher compression of newer gas engines and accurate fuel metering is what makes the newer LPG conversions almost indistinguishable in power from gas. By far it was my favorite conversion. We increased the compression by putting thinner head gaskets in. Two last advantages. 1.If one fuel system fails you have a backup. 2. The propane vaporizer uses heat from the cooling system to turn the liquid propane to a vapor and helps to cool the antifreeze in the process...this is a small perk but I wanted to be complete. So if you go through allot of propane anyway or rack up many miles each year or buy your gas in Canada and can recoup at least half your conversion costs in fuel, I say heck yah it is free! But if you are the average 6000 mile a year guy buying fuel in the USA then I say no. I wish we paid your fuel prices! When I do the conversion I will post a link on all the steps involved.Best regards,Andrew To: lifewithalazydazerv@yahoogroups.com From: Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2013 02:02:46 +0000 Subject: [LD] Re: LPG propane conversion"LPG has less energy in it so a 10% loss in power but in new autos can hardly be felt..."I believe you... with respect to modern cars. On the other hand, as the former owner of a Chevy 350-based 22' Lazy Daze, I can tell you that the 350 c.i.d. V8 is underpowered when trying to move a 5-ton motorhome, and I would definitely NOT want to sacrifice 10% of that engine's already minimal horsepower.As for doubling or tripling the engine's life... again, that may be true if a new or late-model vehicle is converted to propane. And if it's a car that will be driven fifteen thousand miles a year, or a fleet truck that will rack up triple or quadruple that many miles, the extended engine life may be worthwhile.But you're talking about a 20+ year old motorhome that has already seen many tens of thousands of miles. It's already well worn. How much good will a propane conversion now do it?Industry statistics show that an average RV logs about 6,000 miles a year. That means the chassis will outlast the owner in the majority of cases. Again, this is not a fleet truck that racks up 50,000 miles a year. So how useful is it to double or triple the lifespan of the engine, when it's already longer than necessary for RVing purposes?Another thing to think about: converting the engine to propane means also converting the generator to propane--or replacing it--unless you intend to maintain dual fuel systems and carry both propane and gasoline tanks. But doing that would impose a substantial weight penalty, and that means not only lower usable CCC, but a performance penalty as well... in a rig that is already a marginal performer.Now, you may want to go ahead with this as a hobby project, just to see whether it can be done. Fine. But in terms of practical benefits, it's hard to see a net gain. Just my two cents' worth.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: LPG propane conversion Reply #12 – August 25, 2013, 01:09:03 am Yahoo Message Number: 142194"How much mileage was on your rig?" 116,000 miles--it was a 1985, and was 16 years old when I bought it. I kept it for five years. It was well maintained, but the technology was old: carburetor and no engine computer. A later-vintage chassis with throttle body injection should have a bit more power. You're right in saying that my RVing lifestyle is different from yours in a number of respects: I tend to stay several weeks, then move a hundred miles or less, so my fuel consumption is modest. And of course as you point out, I'm doing this in the US, where gasoline is less expensive and winters are milder--well, they're milder in the southwestern parks I go to when cold weather sets in. It sounds as if you have a plan that's right for your needs, and you certainly have the experience to put it into action. Keep us posted!Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: LPG propane conversion Reply #13 – August 25, 2013, 08:47:24 am Yahoo Message Number: 142196I will keep you posted. There is a conversion I did to a carboreted rig and used the closed loop propane system. All I had to do differently was to weld a bung into the exhaust header for an O2 sensor and wire it right to the propane feedback controller. That rig did as good or better on propane but electronic ignitions in newer rigs that have knock sensors also contribute to better performance so yes your machine would defiantly have been a bit of a slouch. I In 1996 chevy started using the vortech heads increasing power and fuel consumption but also used sequential injection. 1996 and 1997 used an injector set up than was bolted inside the intake manifold. Being the first two years they were known to be hard to get to for repairs and they had problems with fuel regulators and leaking when they got older. After that they were great. Unfortunately LPG technology did not keep up with the new systems and putting a mixer on a manifold designed to only deliver air and not a combustable fuel resulted in many a destroyed intake manifold from back fires of unburned fuel left in the long manifolds made of plastic on some models. The first change on those was to put a metal intake during the convertion. I would not attempt a convertion on a chevy from 1996 to 2000 model years but 2001 on is all good. Not so sure on the Fords or dodge. Dodge only used TBI 1990 to 1992 ish. Then OBD2 sequential injection systems took over. Chevy used TBI from 1987 to 1995.Best regards,Andrew
Re: LPG propane conversion Reply #14 – August 25, 2013, 08:59:23 am Yahoo Message Number: 142197On your rig.....on all rigs part of a professional install of LPG is a complete engine service and inspection. Part of that is a compression test on all cylinders. If it came up well into acceptable I would convert it. Like I said those 350 motors were good for 500000 Km (not sure on the miles that would be). Your rig would have been around 250000Km so yah you. Could double it but would not need to like you said unless for the reasons I provided earlier. By the way any one using propane can download a list of propane suppliers to put on you GPS units from POI factory. I think it is free.Best regards,Andrew
Re: LPG propane conversion Reply #15 – August 25, 2013, 09:04:30 am Yahoo Message Number: 142198In the mean time is there any one out there with a 22 ft rear bath LD that can give me some measurements I need of the chassis under belly.Best regards,Andrew
Re: LPG propane conversion Reply #16 – August 25, 2013, 09:08:30 pm Yahoo Message Number: 142218This is the info on I received for LPG tank installation from Proquip sales for a Chevy G30 chassis.Best regards,Andrew
Re: LPG propane conversion Reply #17 – August 25, 2013, 09:09:06 pm Yahoo Message Number: 142219Depending on body design we have installed 12X50 and even larger 16X48 tanks in GM chassis's. Your 12 X 48 should fit fine barring any cabinets that may hinder the install, although these can usually be modified fairly easily.Best regards,Andrew
Re: LPG propane conversion Reply #18 – August 26, 2013, 10:49:38 am Yahoo Message Number: 142227QuoteIn the mean time is there any one out there with a 22 ft rear bath LD that can give me some measurements I need of the chassis under belly. Like Larry, we also had an '83, but traded to a newer model. However, for reference in getting the info you want, this model is NOT called a rear-bath. That refers to a larger model on a Ford chassis. You are looking for the 'Front-Lounge' (FL). Further, there were considerable changes over the years in layout, such as a switch to an ASME tank from vertical DOT, the addition of a generator a an option, etc, that will definitely impact those measurements. Decide which vintage you are interested in to find useful results.Steve
LPG Convertion Reply #19 – August 23, 2013, 09:30:47 pm Yahoo Message Number: 142179Actually if I could get the mentions of space available between the frame rails and body work under the RV I could determine if my tanks will fit before I start looking for a 1995 Lazy Daze 22
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