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Roadmaster sway bars initial report 2011 24'
Yahoo Message Number: 138225
I had Roadmaster bars installed at Southwest Driveline Yuma AZ.  I was attempting to cure what I considered to be excessive body roll even on minimum force cornering.  This roll contributed to imprecise sloppy steering and perhaps suspension induced steering.  Out of the box I wasn't particularly fond of the handling dynamics.  An alignment (including eccentrics) did little to change it.
 When job was completed I ask for the shop to retain the old bars for a while in case I wanted to go back to them.  They said they would, but that they knew I wouldn't go back.
 A few hundred miles later I won't go back.  Steering is sharper and more precise.  There is less sway.  I feel more confident in precisely locating the vehicle on the road.   I am particularly focused on the ride, and so far there has been little or no degradation of the ride on the roads I've travelled.  I'm using Ford shocks at this time.
 I'll add more comments after more mileage experience.  I'm not one who tends to add aftermarket parts to vehicles.  But in this case, with the weight of the motorhome on E450, the aftermarket sway bars are a better match than the stock Ford sway bars.
Re: Roadmaster sway bars initial report 2011 24'
Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 138232
Good to hear. I had the same thing plus the "baby carriage" rocking affect.
I had a set of these installed along with a new Rancho steering stabilizer on my '95 23.5TK: http://konirv.com/Adjustable.html

It made all the difference
Re: Roadmaster sway bars initial report 2011 24'
Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 138235
I put IPD (now Roadmaster) sway bars on my 2005 MB shortly after I bought the rig.  This was about the same time that Roadmaster bought IPD.   I felt that the IPD bars greatly reduced body roll and made a significant difference in handling.
 I had Lazy Daze put the heavy duty Bilstein shocks on my rig.  That was a waste of money.  I had one Bilstein break internally within a year.  At about 18 months, I removed the Bilsteins and had Koni adjustable shocks installed.  This resulted in losing a little "crispness" in  the steering, but not objectionable. It made a major improvement in the ride.  After running the Koni's for 6 months, I "stiffened" them up one notch and got the steering "crispness" back without degrading the ride.
 However, vehicle handling is a totally subjective thing.  Everyone likes something different and has different ideas on how to achieve what they like.

Doug

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Re: Roadmaster sway bars initial report 2011 24'
Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 138239
I agree on the subjectiveness of handling.  I think we may respond to different cues and inputs and a factor ignored by one person could be almost deal breaking to another.
 Right now I'm going to continue on the Ford shocks but with a critical eye to improvement.   We have some terrible roads
Re: Roadmaster sway bars initial report 2011 24'
Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 138257
Second day follow up is even more enthusiastic.  Today I was on roads with high speed corners (45-65 mph).  This used to bring out the worst in the suspension.  I was also in urban freeway settings with construction, narrow lanes and trucks.
 Cornering at 55 mph now takes  fewer mid corner corrections.  The vehicle has a much more settled feeling in these corners.  Before it felt like jello was in the path between steering input and vehicle response.  Now it feels more buttoned down and more likely to track through the curve without corrections.  It is easier to hold in narrow lanes combined with cornering.  The vehicle feels more buttoned down at 70 than it used to feel at 60 mph.
 I still can't find any noticeable hit on ride quality.  If so it is lost in the noise.
 There is a much improved impact on driver fatigue.  More direct steering and fewer corrections allowed me to arrive at destination much less fatigued than any other trip with this RV.
 I'm still pondering the shock absorbers.  It is clear the stock Ford shocks err on the side  of not enough control.  But I don't feel they're off by a whole lot, and overdoing it in the other direction is something I want to avoid.  I'm going to continue to evaluate the shocks with a possibility of upgrading to the Koni shocks in the future.
 Mini Rant:  Ford and the big motorhome companies should collaborate on suspension settings on cutaways designed for class C use.  The sway bars are nothing but a calibration, and in this case, even with a relatively light 24', the heavier spring aftermarket bars lead to a superior driving experience.  We should have this kind of performance out of the box.   There is no need for these motorhomes to be delivered with these handling vices.
Re: Roadmaster sway bars initial report 2011 24'
Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 138334
Good to hear that your Roadmaster bars are doing their thing.
 I agree that is questionable whether you should have to install these aftermarket parts to make things work correctly.  However, there are those who think that the stock Ford sway bar and Ford shocks (or the LD installed Bilstein shocks) work perfectly well and may not be pleased with the handling with a Roadmaster bar, etc.
 The issue of motorhome handling with "stock" suspension is not confined to Lazy Daze owners.  I know several owners of other Class C brands that have spent considerable money on suspension work trying to get better handling.
 IMHO the responsiblity for providing a vehicle with decent handling rests with Lazy Daze, not with Ford.  Ford would be hard pressed to provide a standard sway bar/shock setup on a specific chassis that would be ideal for all of the "end product" vehicles built on that chassis.  While a lot of the "cutaway" E-450 chassis end up in Class C motorhomes, a significant number of them end up in mini-buses, ambulances, etc.  Even for Class C motorhomes there is a significant difference in the weight of the end product vehicles from different manufacturers.  Now you throw in the complication of "stretching" the chassis to build longer motor home (typically  greater than 28 feet?).  Do these stretched chassis automatically get upgraded suspension components?  I don't know but my guess is that the do not. An easy place to start answering this question would be to look at the LD 31-ft rig.

However, Ford certainly could assist Lazy Daze, and other motorhome builders, in this area by offering "suspension options" for the chassis.
Then the motorhome builder could determine which "option" is best for his products.  However, this means that they would have to test their products and evaluate various options.  A good starting point for this testing would be to get employees to become regular users of the products. I, and a number of others, have expressed the opinion that Lazy Daze gets a limited amount of "useage data" on their products from first hand experience.

Doug

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Re: Roadmaster sway bars initial report 2011 24'
Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 138336
In one way I think it is an advantage I never had another class C to compare handling with the Lazy Daze.  LD touts their rigs being relatively low profile with above average handling.  I suspect compared to other class C rigs that is true.  I may have ruffled a few feathers on the factory quality survey when I criticized the handling (or come off cranky and hard to please).  I was very complementary on other aspects of the survey.
 On the overall spectrum of automotive handling, lets just say there is a lot of work to be done.
 After experiencing the one size fits all Roadmaster bars, I still think a single class C specific suspension tuning would be closer than we're currently getting.  Narrowing it down to a few different tunings based on weight, overhang, and center of gravity would be all the better.
Re: Roadmaster sway bars initial report 2011 24'
Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 138337
A guy on rv.net named Harvard strongly proposes the caster be set to 7 degrees positive on the class C.  Mine is set to 4 degrees.  I think what he says makes lot of sense.  Another deficiency I note is the on center feel of the steering.  It needs a little stronger return to center and a little stronger straight tracking which needs fewer micro corrections.  He suggests the 7 degree (max of the spec range) will help with this.  Unfortunately this takes aftermarket eccentrics and a good alignment shop.  It is on my list.
Re: Roadmaster sway bars initial report 2011 24'
Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 138338
My apologies if it looks like I'm spamming the board, I wish there was an edit function I could stick all of this on one post.
 One priority I have which may be different than others is I really enjoy driving, the road and the scenery.  Driving a car for me is fun in pretty places.  I'd like driving the class C to be fun too within the limits of physics.  I'd say I derive half my pleasure from traveling from just the drive.
 To enjoy the drive for me requires that I'm able to look at the scenery.  Not concentrate excessively on holding it on the road due to excessive steering corrections, very low capability limits,  or other handling maladies.
 Driving in the San Diego mountains the other day following the sway bar install was my first pretty drive in challenging area I enjoyed.  It doesn't handle like a BMW.  Or a Camry.  Or even an F250.  It can't due to it's physics.  But it has become somewhat predictable in response and lets me enjoy the beautiful scenery.
 With a few more little steps to clean up the handling I'll have the perfect RV for my purpose.
Re: Roadmaster sway bars initial report 2011 24'
Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 138341
tpild@ wrote: " ... One priority I have which may be different than others is I really enjoy driving, the road and the scenery.  Driving a car for me is fun in pretty places.  I'd like driving the class C to be fun too within the limits of physics.  I'd say I derive half my pleasure from traveling from just the drive. ..."
 I am following your posts for the same reason.  My LD sat a few years before the second owner got it all fixed up. I think I will most likely be adding shocks sooner that average because of the time the RV sat still.  I am considering KONIs.  I like the idea of being able to tune the shock.  Someone used the word "crisp".  I would be happy with a little more "crisp" but overall I am happy with the LD.  With the waste tanks empty and fresh a quarter to half full the RV holds the corners better than I thought it would.  I do not have much to compare it with though.
 And love to add a true drivers chair, like the one from an older 325 (E46) or MINI.
 Im starting to ramble.  I do enjoy the winding back roads, and driving just for the scenery along the way to where ever "over there" is.
John
Currently: 2008 36' Tiffin Open Road
Previously: 2007 Mid Bath
Re: Roadmaster sway bars initial report 2011 24'
Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 138345
I'm giving lot of thought to the Konis too.  There's a guy on rv.net Ron Ditmer who has a smaller Phoenix cruiser.  He has the Roadmaster bars, Konis, and the Panhard rod type of deal on the rear end to hold it in place better.  He seems very happy with the handling improvements, and this is on a relatively small lightweight class B+ or small C.
 My two next steps will probably be the alignment w/ 7 degrees positive caster, and possibly the Konis.  Both these steps may take me a while.
 I am quite happy with the ride out of the box.  It does not porpoise or beat me to death over bad sections.  If it has a fault it is a degree of impact harshness which may be related to the E rated tires and relatively high pressures and possibly not the shocks.  I am going to do some more research on the Konis and the ride quality on relatively light class C motorhomes.  So far what I've read on this thread and elsewhere has been positive.
Re: Roadmaster sway bars initial report 2011 24'
Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 138416
Phase two of my handling improvement quest begins Monday.
 I'm having the Supersteer 450 rear track bar installed.  It is supposed to hold the rear axle from sideways movement on the springs, improving steering precision.
 Anyone who has installed this (or similar) product without any noticeable improvement please chime in.
Re: Roadmaster sway bars initial report 2011 24'
Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 138422
Quote
I'm having the Supersteer 450 rear track bar installed.  It is supposed to hold the rear axle from sideways movement on the springs, improving steering precision.
This is a 'Panhard Rod'. Although it provides good lateral rigidity in positioning the rear axle, it moves in an arc - shifting the axle from side-to-side as the suspension compresses and rebounds. This can be disconcerting on sharp bumps, but will not normally upset handling. However, the E-450 rear suspension is designed to provide lateral rigidity already by restricting any lateral movement, and the Panhard Rod will be fighting the suspension bushings and hardware. This can only cause premature wear to these components.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Roadmaster sway bars initial report 2011 24'
Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 138475
Thanks for your input, I read through the various posts you referenced and appreciate reading the improvements you made.

It appears I'm on the same track.
 I've had one wheel alignment, I'm going to have a second (unless the track bar completely stabilizes straight tracking).  The current toe-in is set at zero degrees.  I'm going to increase that to .1 or .2 degrees.  The current caster is set to 3.9 and 4.2 degrees.  I'm going to attempt to have that increased to the maximum spec on each side (roughly 7 degrees depending on the side).
 The shocks will be my third effort, as needed.  I may start with HD Bilsteins in the rear with front as needed.
 My total weight (with me the driver) is 11,500 lbs.  3880 of that is on the front.
Re: Roadmaster sway bars initial report 2011 24'
Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 138490
Don, this would be a good time to ask some questions regarding side to side loading.
 Currently I don't have four corner weights.  I know the curb side weighed at 340 lbs heavier than the driver side (one factor heavier than stock batteries).  Knowing that I adjusted what I thought best.
 Fresh tank is on driver side, forward and low.  60 gallons would seem best place to add ballast to balance the other side.
 I was going to go into great deal how everything is packed- but it would be tedious and boring.  Suffice to say I'm single traveler, non fulltimer, and am packed very light.  Most cabinets far below capacity and with lightweight stuff.  Nothing stored in overhead bunk area.  There are two forward and low outside storage compartments.  Tools, sheet metal BBQ, utility hoses, walkup mat.  Tried to move heavier stuff to driver side.
 My questions.  Black tank is at far rear and on the driver side overhanging the rear axle.  It has been my thought this location would not be a good place to balance right to left weight due to the rearmost location?
 Nearly all the indoor storage in front of the rear wheels is in the ceiling level overhead cabinets.  My thought is this should only be used for light stuff and the area not used for balance adjustments using heavy stuff?
 My plans are to get up to Henderson in Oregon and let them do a handling assessment and complete analysis.  I'm certain they can help improve it further, and also can confirm when it is as good as it gets.  The second point is important to me as I would like some closure on the handling issue wherever that point may be.  Accept it for what it is.

Tom
Re: Roadmaster sway bars initial report 2011 24'
Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 138509
Hello Tom,
 I would like to leave the details of what you load where to your choice, as there are many choices and the personal decision on just how particular one wants to be.  I would mention one thing - that we needed to increase our front loading, more so on the right side than the left.  We used the front (RH) dinette under seat compartments to advantage.  I did our measurements with about 25 gallons
Re: Roadmaster sway bars initial report 2011 24'
Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 138510
Quote
I wanted reduced bump steer, reduction in having to correct steering when being passed by 18-wheeler, and greatly improved steering / tracking when driving through a corner on a two lane road.
All this on handling. I sure am glad our rig came from Ford without such problems. Also glad I do not have to drive on CA roads all the time.

Cheers, Don
Don & Dorothy
Sold our LD in June of 2023

Our boring always non-PC travel blog
Traveling Dorothy
Re: Roadmaster sway bars initial report 2011 24'
Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 138522
Thanks Don McG.  I appreciate your thoughts.   Posts like this are great, from someone who has already been there.
 The local mover has a scale, I'm sure he would let me put one wheel at a time on the platform.  All I did was whole vehicle and axles.

Off to get the trackbar this morning.
 Don Malpas, I'm concerned with the quality of the roads I have to be gentle w/ shock absorbers and not go overboard.
 As far as the handling goes, probably everyone has different factors which pull their chain.  Additionally there is likely production variations in the vehicles.   The hard part for me is to determine how much the handling deficiencies are inherent in the vehicle center of gravity and suspension design (with little room for improvement), and how much is correctable through repairs and upgrades.

Thanks again for all the good feedback.  I learned a lot.
Re: Roadmaster sway bars initial report 2011 24'
Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 138536
Quote
First, one technical point evaluated by practical experience:
 You will not feel the steering effect of the installation of an ipd or a Henderson's rear track bar on your Lazy Daze.  On the contrary, you WILL feel the REDUCTION in the steering effect of the stock rear axel steering the vehicle because of the REDUCTION of the amount of shifting of the rear axle relative to the frame/body installation.
While I don't have experience with these devices on a LD chassis, I have driven and owned a few light vehicles where Panhard Rods were incorporated as the principal means of horizontal location of the rear axle. Handling was good with these systems, precise and controlled. Still, when traversing a sharp ridge at speed, you were immediately aware of the lateral shift. Since the net effect returns you to the original direction of travel, it does not upset handling, but is assuredly disconcerting to the uninitiated.
 Note that pre-'08 Ford chassis already have beset us with an a-symmetrical FRONT suspension that therefore tends to cause similar shifting under similar conditions. Folks have gone to radical degrees to try to rid the effect, but I doubt if these attempts have been fully satisfactory. I also doubt if adding an a-symmetry to the rear suspension is the best move.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Roadmaster sway bars initial report 2011 24'
Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 138574
Steve,
 I agree that high performance car handling at speed over a sharp ridge could be affected, even though the net effect was a 'return' to original.... , that just does not seem to be a description of how the directional stability of a Ford cut-away cab chassis with a motorhome coach body is affected by the addition of a track bar.

Back
Re: Roadmaster sway bars initial report 2011 24'
Reply #22 –
Yahoo Message Number: 138575
Don
 I had my track bar installed last Monday.  I have had about 30 miles of freeway and suburban driving since.  I drove it semi briskly through a couple bends but nothing hard where stuff would shift in cabinets.   There was no wind.

First impression:  Insufficient data.
 The roads were not challenging.  I can say it tracked through a few curves without correction-it held a line accurately, and I didn't notice any where it darted to one side in a corner.   A couple big rigs passed on freeway with no drama.    When I'm faced with challenging drive I'll report back.
 There has certainly been no decrease in handling, and no weird or untoward symptoms.  No clunks or unusual vibrations or noise.
Re: Roadmaster sway bars initial report 2011 24'
Reply #23 –
Yahoo Message Number: 138581
Quote
The roads were not challenging.  I can say it tracked through a few curves without correction-it held a line accurately, and I didn't notice any where it darted to one side in a corner.   A couple big rigs passed on freeway with no drama.    When I'm faced with challenging drive I'll report back.
Noticing the effect would be unlikely in a bumpy turn, due to transitional effects already in play. A Panhard Rod does not adversely effect handling if properly installed. Where I have found the effects most noticeable is when crossing a sharp transverse ridge on a straight section of road. You might notice it on a freeway, but more likely on a country road at moderate-to-fast speeds. I.e., going straight where the rear suspension moves up, then back down, quickly (or vice-versa). A properly installed bar will sit parallel to the rear axle when normally loaded. As the suspension compresses, the bar will shift the chassis in the direction of its axle anchor. Then, on rebound, it will shift the chassis back to neutral. Same will happen if encountering a sharp dip.
 Note that the longer the bar, the less the effect. For easy descriptions of these, and a superior alternative, see:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panhard_rod http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt%27s_linkage

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit