Andy's PD... March 21, 2013, 03:37:16 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137603Andy, I would be very interested in knowing what the problem turned out to be, and if the PD surge protector is the culprit. I am currently in the market, and that seems to be the recommended model. The only other thing that occurred to me would be a weird waveform out of the inverter - but I don't carry an oscilloscope. I have an old, small portable one that runs from a set of lead-acid batteries that need replacement. I'm thinking it would be a useful tool if I get it working. In the meantime, my temperature-controlled iron bit the dust, so that's slowing down the process.Steve
Re: Andy's PD... Reply #1 – March 22, 2013, 11:50:27 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137638"I would be very interested in knowing what the problem turned out to be, and if the PD surge protector is the culprit." Actually, it was my Progressive Industries surge protector. Progressive Dynamics make high-quality converters. It's easy to get Progressive Industries and Progressive Dynamics mixed up; happens to me frequently. Many of our members have upgraded to PD units, but I went a different route: I have a proSINE 2.0 inverter/charger. Anyway, it was my P.I. energy management system (surge suppressor, etc.) that failed. And you'll be happy to hear that the culprit was most likely me. :-) Here's the story. About two years ago, I ran into a problem where I couldn't get shore power to the coach, but generator power still worked. Then after a week or so, neither generator nor shore power could get through. Since the converter's automatic transfer switch (ATS) pretty much has to be in one position or the other, I figured that if neither shore power nor generator power was getting through, the problem couldn't be the ATS. Therefore I opened up the Progressive Industries energy management system--the only other item that I could think of that was capable of blocking both AC power sources. I wired its inputs to its outputs, bypassing it completely, but the problem didn't go away. Eventually I made additional measurements at the ATS and discovered that it had somehow failed in a way that blocked BOTH generator and shore power--I still don't know how that's possible, but it was definitely the case. I replaced the ATS, reconnected the P.I. surge protector box, and all was well... for a couple of years. But then two weeks ago, I once again found myself in the situation of not getting either generator or shore power. Naturally I assumed I had another failed ATS on my hands. I was so confident of my diagnosis that I didn't bother to unmount the converter, open up the ATS housing that sits on its back, and test the voltages there. Instead, I bought a new Parallax ATS301 unit (thanks for picking it up, Lenore!) and installed it... only to discover when I'd finished that I *still* had no power coming through to the coach's outlets! I replaced the old ATS and looked at the voltages on its terminals. 120 VAC coming in from the generator... 120 VAC going out to the P.I. box. Nothing wrong with the ATS. I'd just wasted a hundred bucks and several hours of unpleasant labor. So I took my contactless 120 VAC detector and poked around the outside of the P.I. box. There was power at the input side, but not the output side. The box was the culprit. I should add that the box's remote readout was completely dead, and it made no difference whether I put its switch in normal or bypass position. That was as far as I got before running out of (mental) energy on Sunday. I spent the next four days driving from California back to Arizona. This morning I finally opened up the P.I. box. What I found was that the black wire on the output side had about two inches of its insulation--from the terminal block to the strain relief in the case--brittle and charred. That wire's terminal block was badly discolored, although all the other terminal blocks were pristine. The plastic case above it was partially distorted. The relay was loose. There were light gray smoke deposits inside the case in the area of that output terminal block. And where the black output wire passed through a current-sensing toroidal coil, the coil was damaged and smoke-stained. All the symptoms seemed to point to a long-term heat buildup rather than a sudden failure. Here's my hypothesis:1. Two years ago when I hot-wired around the P.I. box and then reconnected it, I evidently failed to adequately re-tighten the setscrews that held the wires.2. I've been down some pretty rough roads since then--most recently coming out of Lake Arivaca, where I lost one of my rear wheel simulators, apparently due to excessive vibration. The setscrew for the black output wire must have loosened up. The power problems began the very next day.3. A loose connection means a poor contact, and that means a hot spot. That black cable got hot enough to char its insulation, and eventually enough insulation flaked off that the wire shorted to the current-sensing coil that surrounded it. At that point the delicate sensing circuitry fed by the coil was destroyed, and the box shut down. To its credit, it failed in safe mode: the relay prevented any more power from getting to the output side that had done all the damage.I've removed the P.I. box completely and hot-wired around it, so my power system is back to normal, albeit with no surge/overvoltage/undervoltage protection. I plan to buy another P.I. energy management system box. The moral, I guess, is that if you can get to the terminals in your EMS box, it pays to check them once in awhile. Me, I think I'll use a dab of Loctite on the terminals when I install the new box.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Andy's PD... Reply #2 – March 23, 2013, 01:10:18 am Yahoo Message Number: 137646"I would be very interested in knowing what the problem turned out to be" Andy, Have you considered the Surge-guard protector? I know you are more knowledgeable than I on these power protection systems but I have had good luck with mine. I boondock on rough roads frequently and have had no problems. The unit is bulky but built like a tank.Bob 01 23.5 Tk, Jeep Cherokee Toad
Re: Andy's PD... Reply #3 – March 23, 2013, 03:27:51 am Yahoo Message Number: 137647QuoteAnyway, it was my P.I. energy management system (surge suppressor, etc.) that failed. And you'll be happy to hear that the culprit was most likely me. :-) Here's the story. Thanks for the detailed analysis, Andy, I'll feel better now about investing in the unit. Silly me - I DID think it was the same company that made the converters, even though I investigated the device on-line.Steve
Re: Andy's PD... Reply #4 – March 23, 2013, 09:55:06 am Yahoo Message Number: 137651wrote: it was my P.I. energy management system (surge suppressor, etc.) that failed. --- Thanks for posting the outcome of this problem, Andy; I was wondering if you had found out if the ATS or something else was the cause of the "no power" situation. I hope that the issue will be resolved with a new PI EMS! ;-)Joan
Re: Andy's PD... Reply #5 – March 23, 2013, 12:41:24 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137663Andy PI has a life time warranty. I would appraise them of your situation. These units aren't cheap. James 2011 TK
Re: Andy's PI... Reply #6 – March 23, 2013, 03:24:27 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137666"Have you considered the Surge-guard protector?" I had a SurgeGuard unit when I started out with this rig in 2006. Several years later when the rig was struck by lightning, the Surge Guard was destroyed. When I examined the unit afterward, I was not pleased with its cheap internal construction. In addition, the P.I. product has a very informative remote readout panel, which the SurgeGuard lacks. You can read more about this here: http://www.andybaird.com/travels/skylarking/2010/zapped-4.htmI believe that a SurgeGuard is better than nothing. But given a choice, the P.I. product is better built and provides more useful functionality.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Andy's PI... Reply #7 – March 23, 2013, 03:32:42 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137668"Andy PI has a life time warranty. I would appraise them of your situation. These units aren't cheap." True. But since I was the last person who tightened those setscrews, I feel that P.I. really doesn't owe me anything, and I wouldn't feel right asking them to pay for my mistake.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Andy's PI... Reply #8 – March 23, 2013, 04:43:34 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137670Quote "Andy PI has a life time warranty. I would appraise them of your situation. These units aren't cheap." True. But since I was the last person who tightened those setscrews, I feel that P.I. really doesn't owe me anything, and I wouldn't feel right asking them to pay for my mistake.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/ Honesty is the first chapter in the book of wisdom. - Thomas JeffersonChris H
Re: Andy's PI... Reply #9 – March 23, 2013, 06:49:06 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137672"since I was the last person who tightened those setscrews, I feel that P.I. really doesn't owe me anything, and I wouldn't feel right asking them to pay for my mistake."AndyMistakes are the cost of education, bet you don't do this again. I have made a bunch of them through the years and are, hopefully, a little smarter because of them.Larry
Re: Andy's PI... Reply #10 – March 24, 2013, 02:07:07 am Yahoo Message Number: 137682I got into the conversation late and don't even know what a PI is that you're referring to. But I do want to say to you Andy, I like the way you approach life -- your honesty and integrity!Chuck in Bellevue, WA[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Andy's PI... Reply #11 – March 24, 2013, 02:29:56 am Yahoo Message Number: 137684QuoteI got into the conversation late and don't even know what a PI is that you're referring to. But I do want to say to you Andy, I like the way you approach life -- your honesty and integrity! http://www.progressiveindustries.net/ems_hw30c.htmSteve
Re: Andy's PI... Reply #12 – March 24, 2013, 10:40:07 am Yahoo Message Number: 137686Thank you Steve. Now I know!!!Chuck[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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