Boon-docking and solar March 21, 2013, 09:44:40 am Yahoo Message Number: 137580Hello group, I was wonder has any one in the group converted all or partial to solar power and if so the best location for adding the equipment. I have a 31IB and would like to go complete solar power using the generator little if any, maybe taking out and using this location for the battery location? Any thoughts or idea'sJohnny B & pauline GRNDAZE 31IB
Re: Boon-docking and solar Reply #1 – March 21, 2013, 11:58:36 am Yahoo Message Number: 137588"I was wonder has any one in the group converted all or partial to solar power and if so the best location for adding the equipment."Johnny Many here, self included, have large solar system and increased battery packs, with the capability to camp for long periods without shore or generator power. Trouble shows up during the short winter days when charge rates are low already due to the sun's low position in the sky. If the sun is hidden by a weeks worth, or more, of cloudy and/or rainy weather, you will get very little charging in these conditions and you most likely will wish you had a generator. Unless you are prepared to use next to no lighting or electrical appliances during these dark, cold times of unknown duration, you will eventually run out of power. During times like this, don't use the furnace, it sucks too much battery power, same goes for the TV and laptop. This probably isn't what you have imagined. Even the best of us occasionally need to run the generator, find shore power or go for a long drive. I would hold onto the generator and install a higher power 'smart' converter to minimize run time when you do need to use it to top off the batteries. If you own a home, the LD's generator can provide backup power in case of an emergency or the lose of city power. It can do the same at a friend's or relative's house, during emergencies. You can get some of the advantages of a bigger solar/battery system by reducing you electrical needs with LED lighting, catalytic heaters and higher efficiency electronics. Use a tablet instead of laptop for email and web surfing. Use 12-volt appliance and charger, eliminating inverter losses.The generator is a valuable asset I would hate to lose.Larry
Re: Boon-docking and solar Reply #2 – March 21, 2013, 12:44:53 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137593What are some locations that may work for a four or six bank of batteries? With out having to modify compartments to bad? Any recommendations for solar equipment?
Re: Boon-docking and solar Reply #3 – March 21, 2013, 12:46:03 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137594Be sure when you have panels installed they are lined up
Re: Boon-docking and solar Reply #4 – March 21, 2013, 01:20:44 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137595"When the sun is low, ie. winter, solar output can be increased by at least 30% by tilting." Assuming the rig is parked with the front facing perfectly east or west. If not aligned correctly, you will lose power during parts of the day, as the panels shade themselves.Larry
Re: Boon-docking and solar Reply #5 – March 21, 2013, 01:55:42 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137599QuoteI was wonder has any one in the group converted all or partial to solar power and if so the best location for adding the equipment. I have a 31IB and would like to go complete solar power using the generator little if any, maybe taking out and using this location for the battery location? Any thoughts or idea's Our 12V LED edge-lit HDTV uses about 24W - up that to about 35W total when in full multimedia mode. Our LED lighting uses between 4W and 12W per fixture, our fans about 12W on low, our cat heater uses nothing. In reasonable climates (freezing to 85F), we can boondock indefinitely with the stock batteries and two 100W solar panels + MPPT controller, even with a few cloudy days. A portable electric heater will draw 600W to 1500W, a hair dryer about 1500W, a microwave about the same, a coffeemaker maybe 1000W, an air conditioner about 1800W, .... you get the picture. A 225 A-hr battery pair will supply 2700 W-hr if you drive it dead, half that if you stop at 50% ... at LOW current. If you drive it hard, that falls to about 160 A-hr or 2000 W-hr if you drive it dead, due to battery chemistry. So, let's say you install ten 6V T-105 batteries, or a total capacity of 1125 A-hr. If you run a small electric heater on low, 600W, through a 90% efficient inverter, the current draw will be 56A, which would not degrade the rating of the batteries. Discharging to 50% would give you 10 continuous hours of operation, assuming no other draws. Then you have to replace 560 A-hr of charge with your solar array. 600W of well-sited, completely unshaded solar panels, with appropriately sized MPPT controller, at these latitudes in perfect fall sun, would charge at a maximum rate of about 35-40 Amps. As the battery bank nears 80% charge, this charge rate will fall dramatically. Anyway, those are the figures - hope it helps your decision about dumping the generator.Steve
Re: Boon-docking and solar Reply #6 – March 21, 2013, 03:15:26 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137602"I was wonder has any one in the group converted all or partial to solar power and if so the best location for adding the equipment." If you are willing to convert to AGM batteries (assuming you don't have them already), you can mount them in interior spaces. Keep them low as very heavy. As a frequent boondocker I think if you get rid of the generator you will regret it. I don't like running mine but twice this winter in foul weather it saved me. I currently have 340 watts of panels and 2 Trojan T-145 batteries mounted in the stock location. Even with no LED lighting yet I am able to run the inverter most days and never let my batteries drop below 60% capacity. Another thing to consider is a first rate solar charge controller and precision battery meter like linklite or blue sky. A good source for Solar and great technical support is AM Solar. I am not affiliated with them in any way other than a happy customer.Bob 01 23.5 TK, Jeep Cherokee Toad
Re: Boondocking and solar Reply #7 – March 21, 2013, 08:50:22 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137613"What are some locations that may work for a four or six bank of batteries? With out having to modify compartments to bad? Any recommendations for solar equipment?" Where to put additional batteries depends entirely upon your rig's layout--it's not possible to give a one-size-fits-all answer. If you don't want to modify your compartments, then you have two choices for adding batteries: switch over to AGM batteries, which don't need venting and hence can be mounted in interior compartments; or have a custom-welded cage built and mounted underneath the rig to hold additional flooded-cell batteries (the kind the factory used to install). I chose to switch to AGMs for my midbath. I placed two Concorde Lifeline 105 Ah 12V batteries in the standard battery compartment, replacing the Trojan 6V flooded-cell batteries that were there. Then I had three additional batteries of the same type mounted in the inside compartment underneath the refrigerator, which backs up on the outside battery compartment. Whatever you do, bear in mind that all batteries must be of the same type, same amp-hour capacity, same age, and same voltage. In other words, you can't just add on a couple of AGMs to your existing 6V flooded-cell Trojans. You're going to be replacing your entire battery complement. Any way you do it, this is not a cheap undertaking, but the benefits are great if you prefer to camp off the grid most of the time. "I was wonder has any one in the group converted all or partial to solar power and if so the best location for adding the equipment." This topic has been extensively discussed over the years, as a number of us have substantial solar power systems. Rather than rehash all that's been said, I recommend you 1) use Yahoo's search command to look for posts on the topic; 2) refer to the relevant articles in the Lazy Daze Companion (http://lazydazearticles.blogspot.com/p/whats-this-all-about.html); and 3) read the articles about solar power and battery systems in "Eureka! Bright Ideas for Your RV": http://www.andybaird.com/Eureka/pages/splash.htmI think you'll find that most or all of your questions are answered by these information sources. :-)Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Boondocking and solar Reply #8 – March 21, 2013, 09:05:46 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137614Thank you Andy I will do my homework with the resources you provides and if I need any more ideas i will postThanks Johnny B & pauline 31IB "GRNDAZE"Sentill from my iPhone
Re: Boondocking and solar Reply #9 – March 21, 2013, 09:19:08 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137615One thing you're going to have to be aware of if you plan on adding a bunch of solar panels and more batteries is the 31' LD's limited CCC.Linda Hylton http://earl-linda.blogspot.com
Re: Boon-docking and solar Reply #10 – March 21, 2013, 11:16:18 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137617See http://lazydazearticles.blogspot.com/search/label/Solar%20Array for access to a spread sheet that calculates the relative advantage of tilted panels. Larry is correct that the tilted panels need to face directly south; their efficiency falls drastically if they do not.Linley
Re: Boon-docking and solar Reply #11 – March 22, 2013, 12:53:01 am Yahoo Message Number: 137619Those truly obsessed with solar, could increase the energy harvest by moving the motorhome three times a day to optimise the panel direction for morning, noon, and afternoon (in the Winter, that would be SE, S, and SW). I suspect that would add another 20%-30%, about like adding another panel.Eric
Re: Boon-docking and solar Reply #12 – March 22, 2013, 10:46:07 am Yahoo Message Number: 137622Well I certainly didn't mean to tilt AWAY from the sun. .
Re: Boon-docking and solar Reply #13 – March 22, 2013, 11:27:48 am Yahoo Message Number: 137623Quote Those truly obsessed with solar, could increase the energy harvest by moving the motorhome three times a day to optimise the panel direction for morning, noon, and afternoon (in the Winter, that would be SE, S, and SW). I suspect that would add another 20%-30%, about like adding another panel. AS Larry and others have pointed out before, tilting the panel is only efficient if your rig is parked in the right direction. As Eric points out above, that could require moving several times a day. Many of us have panels that are not tiltable. Has anyone tried using a mirror(s) to increase the output? I did a very brief Google of this, and came up with this guy's experiment. He claimed up to a 75% increase in output, but of course he was using a very large mirror that wouldn't be feasible for our rooftops. And, his mirror was on the ground, reflecting up to a tilted panel. Here's the link: http://www.geo-dome.co.uk/article.asp?uname=solar_mirrorFor our flat panels, the mirror itself would have to be standing tilted "behind" the panel relative to the sun's location. Using a true glass mirror would probably not be a good idea due to weight, fragility, etc., but what about using a plastic one. Years ago we had a plastic mirror cut for use on the wall next to the kitchen sink in our TK. It "opened up" the confined space rather nicely. The plastic is not optically "true," but for reflecting sunlight that shouldn't matter too much. It is quite lightweight. The mirror could be set in a simple frame with some tilt legs and merely propped up on the roof. As winds would be a concern, there should be some way to anchor or weight it. I haven't thought that far ahead (suction mounts like used with a GPS?), and I'll leave it to more fertile minds (hello, Larry) to noodle on that. Access to change the position wouldn't have to be a chore if you could simply reach it through the escape hatch, as would be my case. Thoughts? -- Jon ('06TK "Albatross", soon to head to Alberta, hence the interest in getting more sun on my panel)[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Boon-docking and solar Reply #14 – March 22, 2013, 12:00:28 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137624If money is no object you can spring for a totally automated GPS informed sun tracking system. See here: http://www.energyforthenewage.com/rv-solar-panel-tracking-system/On my trip to Alaska in 2009, I noted a class A with a 4 (2x2) solar panel array on a boom that was something like what's in a video. Given the costs I *assume* are involved, it's an extreme solutions compared to just improving on the converter and running a generator.Alex Rutchka, SE #4 '05 MB
Re: Boondocking and solar Reply #15 – March 22, 2013, 01:07:41 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137627"Has anyone tried using a mirror(s) to increase the output?" No mirror is 100% efficient at reflecting light, so you'd have to factor in the losses caused by the mirror itself. This is especially true of common mirrors that are silvered on the back. Light must pass through the glass or plastic twice--once on its way to the silvering, and again on its way out. A front-silvered "first surface" mirror--the type used in telescopes and SLR cameras--avoids this, and hence is more efficient (although still not 100% so). But this type is extremely vulnerable to scratching. Even wiping dust off a front-surface mirror creates micro-scratches that impair its reflectivity by scattering light. (And of course it goes without saying that conventional rear-silvered plastic mirrors have the same vulnerability.) In short, the benefits or using mirrors are doubtful, and the implementation is likely to be cumbersome. A better solution would be to remount your existing panels to make them tiltable. This is really quite simple (see AM Solar's website for their brackets and tilt bars) and yields significant results.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Boon-docking and solar Reply #16 – March 22, 2013, 02:30:36 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137628QuoteWell I certainly didn't mean to tilt AWAY from the sun. . Since tilted panels at these latitudes are only really effective in three seasons, and for those seasons, consider these factors: - The sun travels much closer to the horizon. Objects that are away from the rig and would not block solar in the summer WILL likely do so the rest of the year. We've been camped in open desert when rock formations, distant mountains, and low trees off-site have blocked solar for portions of the shortened fall or winter days. - Solar panels are rated in fairly standard lab conditions which do not exist in nature. A cold snap at the equator on a cloudless day would be needed. The conditions are: -- 'One Sun', roughly equivalent to the insolation you could expect at the equator at noon with the sun directly overhead. -- 'Room Temperature', about 72F. Since 14% to 18% efficiency is par for high-quality crystalline silicon solar cells, 82% to 86% of the absorbed energy is converted to heat. An outside temperature of perhaps 60F or so might be needed to achieve maximum efficiency. Otherwise, output voltage drops. -- Such conditions ever occurring in nature would be globally highly alarming. So tilted panels may help sometimes, but you're fighting so many other issues for performance that simply adding more panels is the best option in most cases, and certainly the least problematic. If you DON'T tilt, panels can be closer without shadowing issues.Steve
Re: 12V vs 6V Batteries (Andy B) Reply #17 – March 22, 2013, 06:22:45 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137630Quote I chose to switch to AGMs for my midbath. I placed two Concorde Lifeline 105 Ah 12V batteries in the standard battery compartment, replacing the Trojan 6V flooded-cell batteries that were there. Then I had three additional batteries of the same type mounted in the inside compartment underneath the refrigerator, which backs up on the outside battery compartment. 1. Andy, why did you go with 12V instead of 6V AGMs? 2. If you were only keeping 2 batteries, would you still have gone with 12V AGMs or stayed with 6V AGMs?Chris H
Re: Boondocking and solar Reply #18 – March 22, 2013, 06:51:21 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137631Quote "Has anyone tried using a mirror(s) to increase the output?" One of the things that makes reflectors for solar panels tricky is that the panel's illumination must be quite uniform. A panel's output is limited to the current created in the least illuminated portion of the panel. You can essentially bring an entire panel's output to zero by covering just one cell. This is really a problem because Lazy Daze tends to put its factory mounted panels on in such a way that something (e.g. the airconditioner) shades some part (often the edge) of the panel during the day if you are parked in the wrong direction. Different coaches need to be parked pointing different ways to minimise this effect. For instance Mid Baths need to park with the cab facing south. If I remember correctly, Rear Baths need to be parked with the cab facing south west.LinleyLinley
Re: 12V vs 6V Batteries (Andy B) Reply #19 – March 22, 2013, 07:42:00 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137632"why did you go with 12V instead of 6V AGMs?" The voltage makes little difference, assuming of course that you use pairs of 6V batteries. 6V batteries even have some theoretical advantages due to their thicker plates, though I doubt that you'd notice a difference in practice. But 12V batteries do have one key advantage in a retrofit of this sort: you don't have to pair them--you can have an uneven number of batteries. As it happens, in the midbath you can fit two batteries in the standard outside battery compartment, and exactly three more in the adjacent interior compartment under the fridge, for a total of five. If I had used 6V AGMs, I would have been limited to four batteries. I wouldn't have been able to fully utilize that inside space, and I would have had less overall amp-hour capacity as a result. As for the type and capacity, Mike Sylvester and I looked at many alternatives, based on the measurements of the compartments I intended to use. (Something to bear in mind in projects of this sort is that what you're installing doesn't just have to fit in the compartment--it has to fit *through the compartment door*, which is much smaller.) The 105 amp-hour Concorde Lifeline AGM batteries were the largest that would physically fit in the spaces available... and at that, they just barely fit. "If you were only keeping 2 batteries, would you still have gone with 12V AGMs or stayed with 6V AGMs?" I would have used whatever let me get the most amp-hour storage in the available space. :-)Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: 12V vs 6V Batteries (Andy B) Reply #20 – March 22, 2013, 08:12:33 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137633Quote"If you were only keeping 2 batteries, would you still have gone with 12V AGMs or stayed with 6V AGMs?" I would have used whatever let me get the most amp-hour storage in the available space. :-) And if the available space were only the outside battery compartment, would that be 12V or 6V AGMs? I appreciate the answers because I am getting close to needing new bats.Chris
Re: 12V vs 6V Batteries (Andy B) Reply #21 – March 22, 2013, 10:44:02 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137634"if the available space were only the outside battery compartment, would that be 12V or 6V AGMs?" I don't know for certain, because in my case the conversion was done seven years ago, to a 2003 midbath. The available batteries may have changed since 2006; other floorplans may have slightly different battery compartment dimensions; dimensions may have changed over the years... you get the idea. All I can tell you is that at that time, for my coach, Concorde's group 27 12V AGMs were the best fit. I should add that in order to make them fit, we had to 1) remove the sliding battery tray (no longer needed, since AGMs need no water) and 2) saw off the tabs at the ends of the batteries that would have held the carrying straps. Turns out that Concorde's data sheet for these batteries listed dimensions that *didn't include* the carry-strap tabs, which add more than an inch to the battery's length.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: 12V vs 6V Batteries (Andy B) Reply #22 – March 22, 2013, 11:24:20 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137635Just, FYI, in my 1997 RB, TWO Lifeline 8D AGM's (255 ah each) fit under the dinette seat next to the stock battery location (which was empty)best, paul"When you arise in the morning, think of****what a precious privilege it is to be alive...****to breathe, to think, to enjoy, to love."********~ Marcus Aurelius "if the available space were only the outside battery compartment, would that be 12V or 6V AGMs?"[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: 12V vs 6V Batteries (Andy B) Reply #23 – March 22, 2013, 11:52:32 pm Yahoo Message Number: 137639"TWO Lifeline 8D AGM's (255 ah each)"Is that 255 Ah at 6V or at 12V, Paul?Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: 12V vs 6V Batteries (Andy B) Reply #24 – March 23, 2013, 12:43:24 am Yahoo Message Number: 13764312V, Andy.best, paul"When you arise in the morning, think of****what a precious privilege it is to be alive...****to breathe, to think, to enjoy, to love."********~ Marcus Aurelius**Quote "TWO Lifeline 8D AGM's (255 ah each)"Is that 255 Ah at 6V or at 12V, Paul?Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/http://www.andybaird.com/travels/> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Topic: Boon-docking and solar (Read 12 times)
previous topic - next topic
Topic: Boon-docking and solar (Read 12 times)
previous topic - next topic