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Fuel pump or other starting problems
Yahoo Message Number: 136749
Hi,
 I've read through many of the message regarding LDs not starting and fuel pumps failing, including the recent thread.
 I went to exercise my 2000 MB today after about a month, and it won't start.  It seems to be turning over normally; enough to get the oil pressure up after a few seconds. It has always roared to life immediately before if the battery had any decent charge, which it seems to. The battery is The last time I exercised it there was one time when it did not start immediately, and I was surprised because it had never done that.  It then started a few times and I stored it again. It has always run fine with no symptoms like those mentioned about failing pumps.
 Is there any way for a person with fair mechanical skills to actually diagnose that it is the fuel pump? Or anything else to try before having to get it towed?

Thanks for any input, Dave Forness 2000 MB
Re: Fuel pump or other starting problems
Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136750
If your hearing is decent when you first turn on the key you should hear the whine of the fuel pump for about 5 seconds. You can also check the Schrader valve for fuel pressure.
If this is negative you might swap out the fuel pump relay. Not to likely to be the cause. You may be able to rap on the tank with a rubber hammer to get the pump to run, but this would only be to move as even if it works it isn't a fix. With proper obd 2 tools the fuel pressure may be available on the bus. A bad fuel pump will often not set a check engine light. If you can get fuel to the throttle body you can but a squirt if gas in and see if it starts for a few seconds.  I would start by checking for pressure at the Schrader valve. It seems as if someone had a hard time finding it on a V1

Sent from Garry's iPhone
Re: Fuel pump or other starting problems
Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136751
Quote
Hi,
"I went to exercise my 2000 MB today after about a month, and it won't start. It seems to be turning over normally..."

Quote
Dave Forness 2000 MB
Sorry Dave, you've described the classic symptoms of a failed pump. I know from experience, I'm currently on my 3rd one ('04 30'IB, 69K miles). All had hesitation or stumbling events prior to failure. Then *nothing*, turns okay but won't start. Looks like it's tow truck time.

Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Jiggs
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: Fuel pump or other starting problems
Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136753
Is there any way for a person with fair mechanical skills to actually diagnose that it is the fuel pump? Or anything else to try before having to get it towed?

Dave
 Good chance it is the pump but I never change parts without being mostly sure I have found the problem, it could be something as simple as a bad fuse or some other completely different component.
Hearing the pump buzzing or having fuel spray out of the test port, when pressed, does not prove the pump is operating correctly. To do so requires testing the pressure with a fuel injection pressure test gauge.
I have used a cheap Harbor Freight test kit for years. It comes with adapters and hose extensions to allow use on a wide range of engine.
http://www.harborfreight.com/fuel-injection-pump-tester-92699.html

The gauge attaches to a port on the fuel manifold.
The 2003 Ford Workshop manual show 35-45 psi to be the normal operating range of the pump. I can't say for sure if your 2000 is the same as our 2003 but they both have the same pump. The part numbers for 2000 and 2003 pressure regulators are different.
Anyone out there with a 2000 Factory Service manual?
 While not at all recommended, if you do try the spray method, make sure to wear safety glasses and have the engine and all electrical accessories turned off as this is a big fire hazard, not to mention the opportunity to spray raw gas into your eyes. It's under a lot of pressure

Larry
2001 MB
* Not to be confused with Larry W (3000 of my posts are actually from expert Larry W due to Yahoo transition mis-step)
Re: Fuel pump or other starting problems
Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136756
Larry is right gas spraying from the port doesn't prove the pump is meeting specs. But it sure proves the fuel Pump is working and isn't the cause of a no start problem !

Sent from Garry's iPhone
Re: Fuel pump or other starting problems
Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136758
Quote
I went to exercise my 2000 MB today after about a month, and it >won't start.
The last time I exercised it there was one time when it did not start immediately, and I was surprised because it had never done that.  It then started a few times and I stored it again. It has always run fine with no symptoms like those mentioned about failing pumps.
 Is there any way for a person with fair mechanical skills to actually >diagnose that it is the fuel pump? Or anything else to try before >having to get it towed?

Thanks for any input, Dave Forness 2000 MB
Hi Dave,
 Sorry to hear you are having what might be the dreaded fuel pump problem. As others have mentioned, when you first turn the key to the run position (not to where the starter is turning), you might be able to hear the fuel pump energize. If not, try this.
 Cycle your key from "off" to the "run" position several times. Don't turn it to crank the starter, just to the "run" position. Do this several times; it may energize the fuel pump and pressurize the system. Then turn the key to the start position. I was told to try this when I had a suspected fuel pump problem in Montana a couple years ago when the Ford dealer didn't have time to diagnose/repair for several days.

Good luck! Steve K.
Steve K

2003 Mid-bath
Re: Fuel pump or other starting problems
Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136759
"But it sure proves the fuel Pump is working and isn't the cause of a no  start problem !"
 Not necessarily. You can still get spraying with less then required pressure. A weak pump may produces less than the specified 35-45-psi.
Lots of things can cause an engine no to start beyond a faulty fuel pump.

Larry
2001 MB
* Not to be confused with Larry W (3000 of my posts are actually from expert Larry W due to Yahoo transition mis-step)
Re: Fuel pump or other starting problems
Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136762
But you don't need anywhere near that pressure to  start you only need a dribble to fire. in fact you can squirt enough through a vacuum line to get the engine to start and then die. also the failure mode for in tank fuel pump is the electric fuel pump motor fails to start at all which is why the thump with your fist or a rubber hammer on the bottom of the tank is a worthwhile trick.
Re: Fuel pump or other starting problems
Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136763
Quote

 I went to exercise my 2000 MB today after about a month, and it >won't start.
The last time I exercised it there was one time when it did not start immediately, and I was surprised because it had never done that.  It then started a few times and I stored it again. It has always run fine with no symptoms like those mentioned about failing pumps.
 Is there any way for a person with fair mechanical skills to actually >diagnose that it is the fuel pump? Or anything else to try before >having to get it towed?

Thanks for any input, Dave Forness 2000 MB

Hi Dave,
 Sorry to hear you are having what might be the dreaded fuel pump problem. As others have mentioned, when you first turn the key to the run position (not to where the starter is turning), you might be able to hear the fuel pump energize. If not, try this.
 Cycle your key from "off" to the "run" position several times. Don't turn it to crank the starter, just to the "run" position. Do this several times; it may energize the fuel pump and pressurize the system. Then turn the key to the start position. I was told to try this when I had a suspected fuel pump problem in Montana a couple years ago when the Ford dealer didn't have time to diagnose/repair for several days.

Good luck! Steve K.
Thanks for the tips everybody; I will try them in the next couple of days when I can get to the RV. I'm also going to open up the doghouse to check for any invading critters and/or damage.

I'll let you know what I find out.

Dave Forness
Re: Fuel pump or other starting problems
Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136764
"I'm also going to open up the doghouse to check for any invading critters and/or damage.
I'll let you know what I find out."

Dave

Never know what you may find.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/sets/72157628789839867/

Larry
2001 MB
* Not to be confused with Larry W (3000 of my posts are actually from expert Larry W due to Yahoo transition mis-step)
Re: Fuel pump or other starting problems
Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 136766
About thumping the fuel pump back to life:
 I tried it to no avail, then my advisers said it (might) work, but *only* if somebody is cranking the engine while I thump.
 No thank you.   I happily paid so I don't have to lie under a truck that might start!
 Also:  I noticed that the mechanic plugged a pressure gauge into the fuel line somewhere under the (removed) doghouse.
 My pump failure was not in the least a surprise to me since Truck just got a new fuel line a thousand or so miles back.

John
Re: Fuel pump or other starting problems
Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 137263
Quote



 I went to exercise my 2000 MB today after about a month, and it >won't start.
The last time I exercised it there was one time when it did not start immediately, and I was surprised because it had never done that.  It then started a few times and I stored it again. It has always run fine with no symptoms like those mentioned about failing pumps.
 Is there any way for a person with fair mechanical skills to actually >diagnose that it is the fuel pump? Or anything else to try before >having to get it towed?

Thanks for any input, Dave Forness 2000 MB

Hi Dave,
 Sorry to hear you are having what might be the dreaded fuel pump problem. As others have mentioned, when you first turn the key to the run position (not to where the starter is turning), you might be able to hear the fuel pump energize. If not, try this.
 Cycle your key from "off" to the "run" position several times. Don't turn it to crank the starter, just to the "run" position. Do this several times; it may energize the fuel pump and pressurize the system. Then turn the key to the start position. I was told to try this when I had a suspected fuel pump problem in Montana a couple years ago when the Ford dealer didn't have time to diagnose/repair for several days.

Good luck! Steve K.

Thanks for the tips everybody; I will try them in the next couple of days when I can get to the RV. I'm also going to open up the doghouse to check for any invading critters and/or damage.

I'll let you know what I find out.

Dave Forness
Update: I was able to get my mechanic that I've used a few times before to come out to my parked LD to at least diagnose the problem. It didn't take him long to determine that it is the fuel pump.  He listened to the sound of the turning engine, then went back by the fill nozzle to listen while I turned the key and heard no fuel pump noise.  He also undid a valve under the doghouse area and felt by hand that there was no fuel.
 I had tried most of the ideas suggested in the thread over the last couple of weeks, with no effect. I did find a little of bit of evidence of mice under the doghouse but no apparent wire or insulation damage.
 So I'm having it towed to his garage on Monday.  My mechanic has a trusted tow guy who he has used for other RVs and ambulances. So I am going to leave it in their hands and hopefully not cringe too much when I get the estimate. I read in a Technoz article to expect around $1500. I'm going to get all my maintenance and fluids done (including generator) at the same time.
 I asked him while he was admiring the LD whether it would be feasible to cut through the floor rather than dropping the tank.  He said yes, but without knowing where the pump is exactly that it would be hard to do the first time. He mentioned that the layout of the MB would likely allow for a hatch door.  Has anybody tried this either the first time or to plan for another bad pump?

Thanks, Dave 2000 MB in MD still
Re: Fuel pump or other starting problems
Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 137381
We are apparently the latest victims of the dreaded Fuel Pump Problem.
Our mechanic has diagnosed a failed FP and quoted about $1200 to order and install a new one, which includes $500 for the pump itself and the rest for labor to drop the fuel tank and install the pump. Someone else mentioned $1500 as a probable cost. Has anyone actually done this, and if so, what did it cost you? I am frankly horrified at the price.

Sonsie 2000 RK

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Fuel pump or other starting problems
Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 137382
Quote
We are apparently the latest victims of the dreaded Fuel Pump Problem. Our mechanic has diagnosed a failed FP and quoted about $1200 to order and install a new one

Sonsie 2000 RK
Been there, done that (twice over) and your quote is quite reasonable. Bite the bullet and hope the new one lasts longer than mine did.

Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Jiggs
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: Fuel pump or other starting problems
Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 137383
On 3/14/2013 8:30 PM, lejest2003 wrote:

Quote
Been there, done that (twice over) and your quote is quite reasonable.
Bite the bullet and hope the new one lasts longer than mine did.
Thanks, Steve. I think! :-(

Sonsie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Fuel pump or other starting problems
Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 137385
Does anyone have access to a Flat Rate Manual to find out the actual labor hours to replace a fuel pump
Kevin Lindsay
2000 Lazy Daze 30 IB
Re: Fuel pump or other starting problems
Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 137386
All this talk about repairs & cost made me think of a site I used recently to help me figure out if I should have repairs done in one area or another.
This site can come in handy to help figure out what it may cost for a given repair for a given car, in a given area. In my case it was a clutch replacement in a ford ranger. One of the cool things it mentioned was other items that should be changed/inspected while in the process of that job.
Anyway, great site, here it is.

www.repairpal.com
 Oh, I have no affiliation with this site & get no benefit if you visit the site.

Enjoy,

Victor Sent from Droid X

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Fuel pump or other starting problems
Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 137387
Hi  Sonsie,
 Although what I am about to tell you is about my 1988 Ford F-250 Camper Special. The same procedures were followed to change out 1 fuel pump in each of the two tanks which cost $160 each and a third in line fuel pump which is under the cab of the truck which cost $125 My mechanic flushed both tanks. With all the other incidental parts that mechanics always charge us for the complete job cost me $1050, $507 for parts, $495 for labor and $48 for tax. Remember that was for 3 fuel pumps not just 1 and a fuel filter. The date of the job was 12/21/09 by a independent mechanic in Los Angeles.
 I think the $500 for the fuel pump is a rip off. Maybe that is from the dealer. There are many other fuel pumps that you can get from a parts store that will do the job just as well as the OEM but at a lower price. You may even get an OEM for a cheaper price at a parts store. I wonder how much of a mark up on the fuel pump they are charging you? Personally I would shop around if you can to get a better deal.
 A word to the wise is sufficient. When you get this fuel pump fixed use a name brand gasoline; if your not already doing it so. Don't use cut-rate gas. For the pennies you save at the pump now, isn't worth the pound of problems that will occur down the line. I hope this helps you. Have a good evening and good luck with your FP problem.

Steve, Picking up my first LD 2003 23.5 FL on Saturday 3/16/13.
Re: Fuel pump or other starting problems
Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 137390
"Has anyone actually done this, and if so, what did it cost you? I am frankly horrified at the price."

Sonsie
 Never dropped an LDs fuel tank but I can tell you his price on the Motorcraft pump is under $300.
MOTORCRAFT Part # PFS20 @ Rockauto.com
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php>
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog> Get a Bosch, if available.
Avord Aitex pumps like the plague, they are cheap junk.
 Dropping the tank can be chore if it is full of fuel. A tank this big would need to be drained, a potentially dirty and dangerous task, one no mechanic relishes.
If empty, a well equipped shop, with experienced mechanics, should be able to drop the tank, install a new pump and replace the tank in 4 hours or less. There isn't much holding it up.
Transmission jacks are the secret.

Truck repairs are expensive and so is running a shop.
From personal experience I can tell you that few mechanics retire rich or physically intact. If it were easy to do, everyone would do their own repairs and maintenance.
I have a transmission jack you can borrow :-).
 Soon I will be able to tell you how difficult a job it is it is to drop the tank. Steve(aq433) and myself will, in a couple of months, be dropping the (hopefully empty) tanks on our 2003 and 2004 FLs.
Steve's '04's generator runs out fuel, with over a half tank, and he needs to find out out why and cure it.
It will be a good time to change the generator's rubber fuel line. LDs of our vintage have had leaks due to the past-its-time fuel line installed at the Factory.
I'm changing our '03's  fuel pump and generator's fuel lines before bad things happen, far away from home.

Larry

At the 2013 Yahoo West GTG
Morro Bay SP
2001 MB
* Not to be confused with Larry W (3000 of my posts are actually from expert Larry W due to Yahoo transition mis-step)
Re: Fuel pump or other starting problems
Reply #22 –
Yahoo Message Number: 137391
In August 2011 while I was traveling I had to have the FP on my 2005 MB replaced at a Ford dealer in Ft. Collins, CO.  The pump assembly itself cost a shade over $500.  Installation labor was just about $1000.  However, I also had a problem with the pressure/temperature sensor assembly on the fuel rail.  It had to be corrected before they could determine whether the FP was generating enough pressure.  It wasn't.  The net is my bill was approx $1650.
 Unfortunately, there was more financial pain to come.  In November 2012, I noticed that on occasions I would have gasoline dripping off the top of the fuel tank right after I finished fueling.  It seemed that I got more leakage if the service station driveway caused the LD to lean to the right.  Back to my local Ford dealer I went but he could not replicate the problem  (His driveway was flat).  With some arm twisting I finally got them to drop the fuel tank. When they blew smoke into the tank filler neck, the problem was obvious.  The leak was all around the FP assembly.  It hadn't been installed quite right and had worked loose, breaking the seal.  The pump assembly sits to the right of center, thus gasoline leaked out only if the LD leaned a bit to the right.  The driveways in most service stations slope away from the pumps just a bit for drainage.  This "drop, flush, and reseal" operation set me back another $860. To make sure I got my money's  worth, while they had the tank down, I had them replace the "infamous LD genset rubber fuel hose" with a piece of high quality fuel line.
 If  you can get your FP replaced with a new Ford OEM pump for $1200 and the work is done by a Ford dealer, I think you got a real deal.  If a dealer does the work, both the part and his work are warranted for 12K miles or 1 year.  Unfortunately my leak problem didn't show up for 15 months and about 20K miles.

Doug

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fuel pump replacement
Reply #24 –
Yahoo Message Number: 137393
Since this thread has dealt primary with the Ford chassis, I've only periodically browsed trough the various posts on a cursory basis. However, for some reason I finally realized what everyone is talking about, and I actually have first hand experience with the matter.
 Just last month, one of my neighbors was having a mechanic friend replace a leaking cam seal on her 2004 Ford Explorer sport trac while it sat on her driveway. Like any true car guy, I had cruised over to check out the progress, and since we had our LD home from storage (getting prepped for a weekend trip), we ended up talking about various car things, etc.
 Anyway, he finished the job and that was that ... until the next morning. Yes, he was back, only this time he down near the rear of the truck. Intrigued, I wandered back over and noticed the fuel tank on the ground. That's when he proceeded to tell me that the fuel pump went out, and the only way to access it was to drop the tank.
 Well, you don't actually have to be an owner getting the $charge to react the same way. I had one of the those 'no f---ing way' moments, but he assured me it was true. I must confess, I told him I would have have been crushed to have gone through the time & effort of doing a major engine repair, only to be confronted with this kind of additional surprise at the end.
 So, let me cut to the chase. I know a guy who is an underemployed union ironworker who moonlights as a mechanic. He's already done the Ford drop-the-tank-to-replace-the-fuel-pump dance, and my neighbor's car has been driving fine for the last month. I can categorically assure you she didn't pay him anywhere near the quotes I'm seeing posted here.
 I you want to go to an official Ford dealer and/or licensed mechanic, I completely understand. But if you're