LED info January 22, 2013, 11:46:24 am Yahoo Message Number: 136341Hi Group; LED's seem to be the rage and their are many dealers at the Quartzsite Big Tent show. I am a boondocker and have been in the Bouse, AZ area for over a month now. WE had some really cold weather for over a week with temps below freezing every night. Yeah, it got chilly inside my RK! Weather is much better now. I decided to try the LED's and purchased two blindly a week ago. My wife hates the really cool lighting. The person I purchased from was not too infomative. Getting more info online and at the Q show. However, these are dealers and they want to SELL. Ok, I now understand the Ktemps and cool vs warm white. 4200 K seems to be the dividing line. Below 4200 they are warm white and above cool white. There are bayonet fittings and panels with adapters. In regards the panels some have really small LED units whereas others are larger in size. Do the larger sizes give off more lumens? Can the cool whites, at 6200K, be converted to warmer colors? Filters? I have replaced 5 incandescent bulbs (1141's) and the energy savings are nice. I do have a Trimetric battery meter so can measure the lower amps from the LED's. (0.2amps for the LED's vs. 1.5amps for each 1141 bulb!) However, most of our lighting for reading, etc is supplied by the double fluorescent bulb fixtures. We have 5 of them in the RK. Fluorescent LED bulbs at the Q show cost $35-$45 each! 10 bulbs will be a big investment. Are there cheaper ways to go to fluorescent LED's? I hope what I have written above is accurate. If not kindly correct. Any info would be most appreciated. Thanks, Mike
Re: LED info Reply #1 – January 22, 2013, 11:59:00 am Yahoo Message Number: 136342The manufacturer/dealer should be able to tell you precisely the designed color temperature and light output (lumens) from whatever they are selling. If you get a dumb look when asking the question, it is time to move on. I personally would not mess around with filters.There is an excellent reference to many different LED solutions
Re: LED info Reply #2 – January 22, 2013, 12:51:24 pm Yahoo Message Number: 136344"We have 5 of them in the RK. Fluorescent LED bulbs at the Q show cost $35-$45 each! 10 bulbs will be a big investment."Mike To save money, pick the two or three light fixtures that you use 90% of the time and convert only them to LEDs. Fluorescent conversions to LEDs provide the biggest energy savings.LED colors are fixed and cannot be changed. I prefer color temps between 2700-4000K. Hotter than 4000K starts to look too blue for my taste. Each LED should be rated in lumens output, wattage and color(or temperature). Search the archives for LED information, it has been widely discused.Larry
Re: LED info Reply #3 – January 22, 2013, 01:49:04 pm Yahoo Message Number: 136346Hi Mike, I just left Q AZ and i am back to work today yuck, however I went through all the vendors inside and outside the tent! Most of the LEDs I saw offered were at least 15-30$ each. Also most where white to blue, with a few warmer here and there. I stopped by RV lifestyles the brick and mortar RV dealer near loves fuel station to pick up some parts for a Friend, they had some LEDs in the 12$ range with a warn color range close to a regular bulb. I bought a few, i love a good deal. So if anyone is still out there and looking for another option here you go!Sent by wireless
Re: LED info Reply #4 – January 22, 2013, 01:57:59 pm Yahoo Message Number: 136347If your wanting to change one light at a time, as the ballast or tubes go bad, the LED strips from this company is best way to go. The Ktemp is very close what you have
Re: LED info Reply #5 – January 22, 2013, 02:27:54 pm Yahoo Message Number: 136350"In regards the panels some have really small LED units whereas others are larger in size. Do the larger sizes give off more lumens?" There are all kinds of LEDs, so there's no way to tell unless you can see the panel manufacturer's specs. "Can the cool whites, at 6200K, be converted to warmer colors? Filters?" I've tried it, but without much success. The results never seem to be really warm... unless I use so many layers of filters that the light output is significantly dimmed."Are there cheaper ways to go to fluorescent LED's?" Sure: buy 12V LED strips and install them yourself. The "bulbs" you're talking about--strips of LEDs in a tube that you can drop into a fluorescent fixture--are convenient, but pricey. It's much more economical to gut the fixture and apply self-adhesive LED strips. This article in Eureka shows how: http://www.andybaird.com/Eureka/pages/fluorescents.htm...and this article explains how to convert all your other fixtures to LEDs: http://www.andybaird.com/Eureka/pages/leds.htmAndy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: LED info Reply #6 – January 22, 2013, 02:55:17 pm Yahoo Message Number: 136351Mike, too bad that you were not looking into that while you were here. You could have looked at my LED fluorescent replacements and decided if you liked them or not. I purchased my LED stuff from Jirah. I like the light but it is definitely whiter than from the fluorescents. I also replaced the incandescents and puck lights with LED's and like the puck replacements a lot. The incandescent replacements - not as much. Those are too white (blue) for my taste. My fault - when ordering I had two choices and I picked the whiter of the two. Oh well..Ken F in NM
Re: LED info Reply #7 – January 22, 2013, 11:38:26 pm Yahoo Message Number: 1363672700-3000K warm white, similar to incandescent 4100K cool white, typical workshop fluorescent, OEM thinlite fluorescent. 5000K plus daylight, often looks bluish
Re: LED info Reply #8 – January 23, 2013, 01:18:13 am Yahoo Message Number: 136372QuoteWhile I have no doubt at this point the LEDs will cut power consumption retrofitted in the fluorescent fixtures, I am not convinced the fluorescents are egregious wasters of power. For that reason I have retained them and upgraded the lenses and lamps. You are right. The efficiency of the fluorescents is really not that far below that of LEDS. However, replacing the tubes with strips of 24 5050SMD devices (fitting the length), each consuming 0.5A, allows you to tailor the power consumption vs. lumen output AND to target the dispersion where it is most useful. For instance, in the under-cabinet lounge locations, the apparent brightness using two strips per fixture is as much or more than with the fluorescent tubes, measured below. TOTAL lumen output is less than the tubes, but you can add more strips, and angle them, if wider dispersion or more light output is the goal. When you can purchase a 5 meter self-adhesive strip with 300 LEDs for $15 or less - more than enough to replace all the fluorescent tubes in the rig - why not?Steve
Re: LED info Reply #9 – January 23, 2013, 09:02:52 am Yahoo Message Number: 136373Steve I fundamentally agree with you. An advantage of the LED is that they can be directed and not count on inefficient reflector bounce. For me though, the known published color rendering index of the fluorescent lamps is a big plus. I can buy lamps from GE Sylvania etc. with color rendering index of at least 80. This is superior to the installed Thinlite cool white (CRI 62). It is also likely better than the generic LED strip lights. I will be more inclined to change out the fluorescents when the LED replacements have reputable CRI specs.Tom
Re: LED info Reply #10 – January 23, 2013, 09:46:40 am Yahoo Message Number: 136374QuoteFor me though, the known published color rendering index of the fluorescent lamps is a big plus. I can buy lamps from GE Sylvania etc. with color rendering index of at least 80. This is superior to the installed Thinlite cool white (CRI 62). It is also likely better than the generic LED strip lights. I will be more inclined to change out the fluorescents when the LED replacements have reputable CRI specs.Tom Tom, check out part# ES505WW here: http://www.everbrightlights.com/flexnwp.htmlA CRI of 85 indicated, and my experience indicates a high degree of color accuracy with the 5050 chips I have used. I admit that when replacing the lens on these fluorescent fixtures after mod, it filters in a way to reduce the color accuracy slightly, IMO. Still, the lens disperses the light and avoids the nasty point-source glare you otherwise get from naked strips. If a replacement lens were available for the newer fixtures, I would consider that.Steve
Re: LED info Reply #11 – January 23, 2013, 09:53:49 am Yahoo Message Number: 136375To add: I'm a lighting nut (love attractive lighting). I'd use all incandescent (100 color rendering index) if energy efficiency were not important. A mix of the tri phosphor fluorescents (80 plus CRI) with LEDs in the incandescent fixtures give me the best compromise. The tri phosphor fluorescents really show off the colors of food nicely, at least for a phosphor based lamp. Tomatoes, bananas, peppers look great. The interior wood looks nice. My LEDs not so much but the gap is filled in by the fluorescents to some extent.LEDs can have excellent CRI. But it isn't universal.
Re: LED info Reply #12 – January 23, 2013, 10:13:57 am Yahoo Message Number: 136377Steve check out the link I posted above for a prismatic lens (Thinlite recessed 2x 15 watt fixture). Don't know how it would look with LEDs, and they were overpriced. But they do pass more light. I'm figuring about 30 percent increase between the tri phosphor lamps and the lenses (no increase in power consumption. Looks like a good link for those installing LEDs in their fluorescent fixtures. For me I'd use the 3000K spec. Thanks..
Re: LED info Reply #13 – January 23, 2013, 01:04:24 pm Yahoo Message Number: 136382My '05 MB has Sunray fluorescent fixtures. From searching the web, I'm pretty sure they are model #916. What I've not been able to find is a source for clear lenses, preferably of the 'cracked ice' type.Any help much appreciated. Sorry if this has been on here before - - if so, I've not been able to find it.tks,bumper 'Yonder' Minden NV[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: LED info Reply #14 – January 23, 2013, 02:06:02 pm Yahoo Message Number: 136384QuoteSteve check out the link I posted above for a prismatic lens (Thinlite recessed 2x 15 watt fixture). Don't know how it would look with LEDs, and they were overpriced. But they do pass more light. I'm figuring about 30 percent increase between the tri phosphor lamps and the lenses (no increase in power consumption. Unfortunately, the fixtures in our '04 are Sunray - not Thinlite, and they have been out of business a long time. All leads I've pursued have come up empty.Steve
Re: LED info Reply #15 – January 23, 2013, 02:13:21 pm Yahoo Message Number: 136385QuoteMy �05 MB has Sunray fluorescent fixtures. From searching the web, I�m pretty sure they are model #916. What I�ve not been able to find is a source for clear lenses, preferably of the �cracked ice� type. Bumper, I think they are a model 930. The 916 is a 16 watt fixture.Steve
Re: LED info Reply #16 – January 27, 2013, 11:34:18 am Yahoo Message Number: 136454Steve- Can you provide a link on where to purchase the product below and the specs for it? In another post of Jan. 27, you provided a link to everbright lights, but it is not clear if the product referenced below is the same one shown in the everbright lights link. Would you please clarify.Thanks--Ted
Re: LED info Reply #17 – January 27, 2013, 02:09:42 pm Yahoo Message Number: 136456QuoteSteve- Can you provide a link on where to purchase the product below and the specs for it?Thanks--Ted Ted, I bought them from a vendor in China on ebay, where there are lots of choices. E.g: http://www.ebay.com/itm/5M-5050-300-LEDs-SMD-Warm-White-Flexible-Hall-Light-Strips-DIY-12V-Nonwaterproof-/330863439978?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d08ff706aThey usually say delivery in a couple of weeks, but it usually ends up being just a few days. Critical choices are the color, 12V, 5050SMD devices, and 300 devices in 5 meter length. The strip can be cut every 3 devices. I used 2 strips of 24 devices for each fluorescent, strips of 3 for cupboard lighting, 2 strips of 6 for end-of-counter illumination, etc. Some folks like cool white, warm white, or a combination.Steve
Re: LED info Reply #18 – January 27, 2013, 02:44:57 pm Yahoo Message Number: 136458Steve--Thanks. I just ordered it. Can you direct me to detailed instructions on how to retrofit to the fluorescent housing? I believe mine are Sunrays for my 2004 RB. I am not an engineer, but can follow simple, straightforward directions to make the connections and have a little soldering experience if absolutely necessary (rather avoid if possible--wire nuts and barrel connectors are my friends). FYI, I recently ordered the following to replace the 1141 bulbs and will report back when installed (if it fits): http://www.ebay.com/itm/261118222322?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649 Ted
Re: LED info Reply #19 – January 27, 2013, 02:59:46 pm Yahoo Message Number: 136459"Can you direct me to detailed instructions on how to retrofit to the fluorescent housing?" "Eureka! Live" offers detailed, illustrated directions on how to do this job: http://www.andybaird.com/Eureka/pages/fluorescents.htmAndy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: LED info Reply #20 – January 27, 2013, 03:09:11 pm Yahoo Message Number: 136460I bought the exact same light strings from a link Steve posted back in November. I ordered one reel of cool white, and another of warm white. With nothing to really compare them to, I thought they were pretty high quality, including packaging, connections, diodes, strips, etc. I can say one thing - the warm whites are the big hit. They put off a very yellow, soothing light - around 3.5k I think. We have 5 fluorescent ballasts on our 22' MP - 3 were installed with 2 strips WW, whereas the kitchen got 3 strips of cool white and the dinette rec'd 2 strips of CW. The super bright lights for the kitchen work great since everything is clearly visible, but everyone hated the cools for the dinette area. In our case, the kitchen lights go off after dinner, but we like to keep the dinette lights on for after-dinner hanging out. Guess what my next project is? Swapping out the dinette cools for the warms before we take the rig out for a Sat night outing next week. As for installation, nothing could be easier - all you need is a soldering iron & some solder. In my case, I'm pretty particular about keeping our '93 factory stock (it's a mint-in-the-box kind of deal where I don't want to muck it up), so I kept the guts of the Sunrays completely intact. Besides, you never know if some kind of LED std emerges in the future where they might utilize existing fixtures. In fact, all I did, besides removing the tubes, was cut the hot lead from the switch to the circuit board, and the negative as close to the box itself. There's enough length on the negative to strip off a micron and solder it direct, whereas I used a short jumper from the LED strip to the switch. Both hot/cold are then re-attached @ the wire nut before screwing back in. Total job is maybe 10 minutes max per fixture once you figure out the basics on the first one.K
Re: LED info Reply #21 – January 27, 2013, 03:27:50 pm Yahoo Message Number: 136461Nice article Andy!Outwater Plastics sells a wide variety of LED lighting and accessories.From complete to parts and pcs. in various voltages.http://www.outwatercatalogs.com/lg_display.cfm/catalog/Master_2012/page/432Neal SchleeLasertech Alaska2341 Cinnabar LoopAnchorage, AK 99507-3150907-344-6677Fax 907-344-3772www.lasertechalaska.comLasertech Logo for Email Signature[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: LED info Reply #22 – January 28, 2013, 12:34:11 am Yahoo Message Number: 136466QuoteSteve--Thanks. I just ordered it. Can you direct me to detailed instructions on how to retrofit to the fluorescent housing? I believe mine are Sunrays for my 2004 RB. I am not an engineer, but can follow simple, straightforward directions to make the connections and have a little soldering experience if absolutely necessary (rather avoid if possible--wire nuts and barrel connectors are my friends). Unlike Andy's strips, these will require soldering skills, and the iron should have a rather small tip. Also, the mechanical installation is simpler than Andy's if you simply mount the strips to the reflector. Both reflector and lens simply snap out, and the ballast can be left in place, as well as the entire fixture. When you cut the strips to 24 devices in length, you will solder a pair of about 24 ga. wires to one end of each. There are four contacts, labeled R,B,G, and 12V. The R, B, and G are bussed together to one wire (white's a good color, for negative), and the 12V one goes to the other wire (red is a good color). The wires should be attached BEFORE sticking the strips down, and aligned straight off the end of the strips. A pigtail length of 6" should be adequate. The reflector mounting is not only easier, it gives a choice of mountings to direct the light dispersion where it is most effective. Stick the strips down to the reflector such that the pigtailed ends are nearest the switch. If needed, provide strain relief on the wires by taping them to the reflector near the end of the strips with strapping tape or such. When this is all done, the red and white wires to the ballast board are about an inch from the board, and connected to the similar color wires from the strips with wirenuts. The reflector is then snapped back in place, routing the pigtails and positioning the wirenuts as needed for clearance. Done.Steve
Re: LED info Reply #23 – January 28, 2013, 08:49:56 am Yahoo Message Number: 136468Thanks for taking the time to write instructions. Thanks also to Andy for his input and everyone else who chimed in on this. I don't know about the size of the soldering iron tip. I ordered the red butane one from Radio Shack that Andy uses (see Eureka!). Hope that will work.Ted
Re: LED info Reply #24 – January 28, 2013, 09:54:31 am Yahoo Message Number: 136470QuoteThanks for taking the time to write instructions. Thanks also to Andy for his input and everyone else who chimed in on this. I don't know about the size of the soldering iron tip. I ordered the red butane one from Radio Shack that Andy uses (see Eureka!). Hope that will work.Ted When this is all done, the red and white wires to the ballast board are about an inch from the board, and connected to the similar color wires from the strips with wirenuts. The reflector is then snapped back in place, routing the pigtails and positioning the wirenuts as needed for clearance. Done. Ted, an error in the above instructions: "When this is all done, the red and white wires to the ballast board are about an inch from the board"SHOULD read: "When this is all done, cut the red and white wires to the ballast board about an inch from the board" Also, clean the reflector thoroughly with rubbing alcohol before sticking the strips down, and note if any paint is missing under where the strips will be mounted. Bare metal can short exposed contacts. Note too the wire routing should be such that the wirenuts end up under the reflector, for a clean appearance and best strain relief.Steve
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