My LD won't start! January 01, 2013, 01:34:10 pm Yahoo Message Number: 135935Any suggestions would be really helpful. The battery is strong but the engine just does not turn over. ? ? ? ? I know that is short and "sour" but I have no idea what is wrong. Plenty of fuel 1/2 tank . I am going to call Coach net tomorrow to see if they can get it started today my mechanic is celebrating New Years Day! TIA, Betty Jean and Circus Wagon
Re: My LD won't start! Reply #1 – January 01, 2013, 01:49:43 pm Yahoo Message Number: 135936Quote Any suggestions would be really helpful. The battery is strong but >the engine just does not turn over. ? ? ? ? I know that is short >and "sour" but I have no idea what is wrong. Plenty of fuel 1/2 tank How do you *know* your battery is "strong"? A strong battery should be able to crank (turn over) an engine unless the engine is seized up. And the amount of fuel in the tank has nothing to do with an engine being able to "turn over". I would try getting a jump start from a known good battery. I have become a big fan of the portable jump start boxes; they make it easy to jump start and many have a protection that prevents problems if you make a faulty connetion of the jumper cables.Good luck with your problem, Steve K.
Re: My LD won't start! Reply #2 – January 01, 2013, 04:25:05 pm Yahoo Message Number: 135939Quote "Any suggestions would be really helpful. The battery is strong but the engine just does not turn over." Betty Jean and Circus WagonB.J.The terms 'strong' and 'turn over' can be preceived in many ways. I'm presuming your "does not turn over" means that you cannot hear the engine. Normally you would hear the engine turn over just before it fires and runs. Do you or do you not hear the engine at all? When my fuel pump went out my engine would 'turn over' but would not fire. Is that your case???Steve S. Lazy Bones & Jiggs
Re: My LD won't start! Reply #3 – January 01, 2013, 06:22:12 pm Yahoo Message Number: 135940The battery is strong but the engine just does not turn over. ? ? ? ? If the battery is strong and the engine does not turn over, then the starter, solenoid, or the start control circuit is bad. Are you sure the transmission lever is in park or neutral? Wiggle it a bit. Do the headlights dim much when you turn to key to the start position? If they do, try jumper cables from the coach to the motor battery. Is there any noise at all from the engine compartment when you turn the key to start? In the old days we'd swat the starter with something hefty to encourage it to spin. Good luck.
Re: My LD won't start! Reply #4 – January 01, 2013, 08:06:49 pm Yahoo Message Number: 135941Starter solenoid fuse ? Or neutral safety lockout switch ?Dave W still sitting Livingston, Tx
Re: My LD won't start! Reply #5 – January 01, 2013, 10:08:29 pm Yahoo Message Number: 135943QuoteAny suggestions would be really helpful. The battery is strong but the engine just does not turn over. ? ? ? ? Some have suggested - but I'm not sure if it was clear - that if the shift lever isn't firmly in 'park' it might not crank. Shift out of park and back, then try again.Also, which chassis/year?Steve
Re: My LD won't start! Reply #6 – January 01, 2013, 10:28:06 pm Yahoo Message Number: 135945Hi Steve! I have been looking at the portable battery jump start boxes but not sure how many amps I need. China-mart has a 500 amp one on sale for $48.00 but he doesn't think 500 amps would be enough to turn over the 450. What are you using? (I think we met
Re: My LD won't start! Reply #7 – January 02, 2013, 10:37:40 am Yahoo Message Number: 135947QuoteI have been looking at the portable battery jump start boxes but not sure how many amps I need. China-mart has a 500 amp one on sale for $48.00 but he doesn't think 500 amps would be enough to turn over the 450. Pat, there are many jump starters to choose from. This 500 amp B&D has never failed me. http://www.amazon.com/Black-Decker-JUS500B-Jump-Starter/dp/B0024GUMR4Joe Hamm As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: My LD won't start! Reply #8 – January 02, 2013, 12:53:02 pm Yahoo Message Number: 135951"I have become a big fan of the portable jump start boxes" These work, but they have a couple of drawbacks. First, they're heavy and have to be stowed somewhere--just one more thing to carry. But to me, the most serious objection is that in order to be useful, they have to be kept charged. Like any lead-acid battery, the gel cell in one of these jump-start boxes self-discharges at the rate of about one percent per day. That means if you start with a full charge and don't use the unit, in less than 90 days it'll be unusable. Now, given that you are probably only going to use the thing once a year, if that, what are the chances it will be ready when you need it? What are the chances you'll remember to charge it up at least every two months in order to keep it ready? Do you really want to add another chore to your "to-do" list? I'm in favor of a different approach: jump starting from the house batteries. They are ten times as powerful as any jump-start box. And if you're using your rig, or it has solar panels, they are always going to be charged and ready to help you. Even if your rig is in storage, the house batteries will have more charge left after a couple of months than a jump-start box would, because they had ten times as much to begin with. A good pair of twenty-foot 4-gauge jumper cables costs less than $40--about half what a good jump-start box costs. I can't vouch for all Lazy Daze models, but twenty feet are more than enough to reach from my midbath's house batteries on the left side to its engine battery on the right front. I use these $39.79 Coleman cables: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00002243Y/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=andbai-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00002243Y...but if you go to Walmart's auto department, you can find an even better deal: a $37 pair of 20' 4-gauge cables that include a very nice fabric carrying bag. IMPORTANT: don't buy any cables that are less than 4 gauge. Light-gauge (meaning thin-wire) cables are cheap for a reason: they don't work well. And of course, make sure that twenty feet will do the job with your particular rig. If you need more length, the Coleman cables I mentioned are available in a twenty-five-foot version for ten bucks more. I think a good set of cables is a better idea than a battery-in-a-box jump starter. They cost less, weigh less--and most important, your house batteries are always ready to go. Having done this job just a couple of days ago when my rig's starting battery gave up the ghost, I can attest that jump-starting from the house batteries gets the engine going instantly! (I replaced the dead starting battery with an Optima Red Top group 65 AGM starting battery. Not cheap, but completely maintenance-free... there is no better starting battery on the market, in my humble opinion.)Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/ As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: My LD won't start! Reply #9 – January 02, 2013, 12:55:29 pm Yahoo Message Number: 135952Just about everyone is carrying around "jump" batteries
Was; My LD won't start! now battery jump boxes Reply #10 – January 02, 2013, 01:36:05 pm Yahoo Message Number: 135954>QuoteHi Steve! I have been looking at the portable battery jump start boxes but not >sure how many amps I need. China-mart has a 500 amp one on sale for >$48.00 but he doesn't think 500 amps would be enough to turn over the >450. What are you using? (I think we met in Alaska several years >ago.) Pat Mac Happy New Year Pat! You are correct about meeting me. It was in Sept. near Canyon Lands NP. during a very hot spell. We were searching for a campsite in a BLM campground near Dead Horse Point and were surprised to spot a group of Lazy Dazes there; I think there were 3 of you Lazy Daze ladies camped together; and some big dogs too! As for the portable jump box I've been using, the brand is "Vector" and I bought it at a Sam's Club prior to driving to Alaska in 2005. The spec sheet says it has "450 instantaneous cranking amps" and "250 continuous cranking amps". It has had plenty of power to start my Ford V10 engine. In addition to being able to jump start an engine, it has an inflator that I've used for bike and tractor tires, a 12volt recepticle that I've used to power a TV and radio in my house during a power outage, and an emergency light. I should add that I was very skeptical about this thing being capable of jump starting a large engine. This was one of those Mike Richmond debate items from back in the 2002-2004 years. I was wrong and Mike was right.Happy trails to you! Steve K. (In very cold and snowy Ohio)
Battery jump boxes vs jumper cabes Reply #11 – January 02, 2013, 02:01:58 pm Yahoo Message Number: 135957QuoteSteve K. wrote: "I have become a big fan of the portable jump start boxes" These work, but they have a couple of drawbacks. First, they're >heavy and have to be stowed somewhere--just one more thing to carry. >But to me, the most serious objection is that in order to be useful, >they have to be kept charged. Now, given that you are probably >only going to use the thing once a year, I'm in favor of a different approach: jump starting from the house >batteries.. A good pair of twenty-foot 4-gauge jumper cables costs less than >$40--about half what a good jump-start box costs. I think a good set of cables is a better idea than a battery-in-a-box jump starter. They cost less, weigh less--and most important, your house batteries are always ready to go. Andy Baird Hi Andy, You make many good points about the benefits of long jumper cables vs jump boxes. Permit me to make some counterpoints. No doubt that you, and others who are fulltimers, will have to be more selective about the carrying weight of items; the weight of the Vector jumpbox I carry is around 18lbs.Here are some reasons that *I* prefer using the jumpbox that I own.1. It has a polarity alarm to warn if the cables are connected incorrectly. In my previous life, while working at a car dealership, I have seen first hand what happens when battery cables are not connected properly..... BOOM! Yes, I had a battery explode on me when trying to jump a car battery in the dark.2. I've used my jumpbox several times to jump start other peoples' vhicles that were parked where I would never have driven my Lazy Daze in order to jump start their vehicle. (think on the beach at La Push) I would much rather use a jump box to help someone else, than use my truck or house batteries.3. At home, I can use it to inflate tires, jump start my tractor (always in one of the least accessible locations) and use it as a portable power source. I can't use my LD house batteries for any of those things.As for the jumpbox needing to be charged, yes it does. But I have gone quite a few months without doing it and found it still had enough power to jump start a vehicle. I'm sure you could find an app for your iPhone that would tell you its time to charge a battery!;-) Guess what I'm saying, is that when I head out on the road, we tend to visit some really remote locations and I want to be prepared. Yes, I charge the box up before we head out on every trip, but I wouldn't leave home without it.For my needs, it just plain works.As always, as Joan says, YMMV!Steve K.
Re: Battery jump boxes vs jumper cabes Reply #12 – January 02, 2013, 04:34:41 pm Yahoo Message Number: 135961"I'm in favor of a different approach: jump starting from the house batteries." The coach battery is more than capable of starting the V-10. A set of heavy gauge jumpers is a great idea. I prefer and carry 2-gauge cables, suitable for jumping large engines. When adding the extra batteries to our LD, a marine battery switch was added, allowing the two starting and coach batteries to be safely connected together with the turn of a switch. http://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/1415588249/in/set-72157602104740457 When parked at home for a long periods, I will occasionally connect the two batteries together. This keeps the starting battery fully charged, using the coach's solar system. I also carry a large AGM jumper battery in the back of the Jeep, that is capable of starting the LD. It seems to hold a charge for several months but does get topped off before every off-road trip. http://tinyurl.com/adl6nbf The Jeep is an automatic, so push starting isn't an option in case of a low battery. A jumper battery, plus jumper cables, is a prudent approach when exploring distant back roads(along with extra clothing, food and water). A little paranoid?...maybe, maybe not. Caution does give you a better chance of coming home on time, free of big adventures.Larry
Re: Battery jump boxes vs jumper cabes Reply #13 – January 02, 2013, 09:29:20 pm Yahoo Message Number: 135967"I've used my jumpbox several times to jump start other peoples' vhicles that were parked where I would never have driven my Lazy Daze in order to jump start their vehicle.... [and] At home, I can use it to inflate tires, jump start my tractor (always in one of the least accessible locations) and use it as a portable power source. I can't use my LD house batteries for any of those things." All good points, Steve. While I have jump-started other people's vehicles from my LD a couple of times, it's pretty awkward to do. Being a fulltimer, I don't have things like tractors, but I can see the usefulness of a portable power source there. And Eric Greenwell has pointed out in a private email, that today's jump-start boxes use batteries that have significantly slower self-discharge rates than the older gel types I mentioned, so they probably don't need to be recharged every two months. I actually do have an older jump-start pack with a 300W inverter, but it resides more or less permanently under my desk, where it serves as a very large power filter for my 12V-powered stereo system (long story). I suppose if the occasion arose I could start a car with it, though. :-)Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: My LD won't start! Reply #14 – January 02, 2013, 10:31:52 pm Yahoo Message Number: 135970Thanks to all for your comments on the battery jumper. Given me something to think about. On another note, I just replaced the coach batteries with Interstates. Wanted Trojans but couldn't find them
Re: My LD won't start! Reply #15 – January 02, 2013, 10:40:34 pm Yahoo Message Number: 135971Quote I'm in favor of a different approach: jump starting from the house batteries. A good pair of twenty-foot 4-gauge jumper cables costs less than $40--about half what a good jump-start box costs. > Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/ I use the house batteries too. But instead of leaping out (maybe in the rain) and hooking up jumper cables, I flip a switch which activates a solenoid to connect the two outboard terminals on the battery isolator. This effectively connects the house to chassis battery. Also allows charging of the chassis battery while parked. If I didn't have that solenoid installed, a simple one foot long cable with clips on each end would suffice to connect those two outboard isolator terminals together to do the jump start.bumper
Re: My LD won't start! Reply #16 – January 03, 2013, 04:38:19 pm Yahoo Message Number: 135975"If I didn't have that solenoid installed, a simple one foot long cable with clips on each end would suffice to connect those two outboard isolator terminals together to do the jump start." The wires leading to and from the isolator are small-gauge, designed to carry fairly modest charging currents--not the hundreds of amps needed to turn over a V-10 engine. I wouldn't feel comfortable doing what you suggest. Now, bridging the isolator for half an hour or so to allow the house batteries to bleed current into a dead starting battery... that's different. That's a safe alternative to jumper cables, if one isn't in a hurry.Andy Baird
Re: My LD won't start! Reply #17 – January 04, 2013, 11:55:40 am Yahoo Message Number: 135989'The wires leading to and from the isolator are small-gauge, designed to carry fairly modest charging currents--not the hundreds of amps needed to turn over a V-10 engine. I wouldn't feel comfortable doing what you suggest. Now, bridging the isolator for half an hour or so to allow the house batteries to bleed current into a dead starting battery... that's different. That's a safe alternative to jumper cables, if one isn't in a hurry.Andy Baird'Andy, Your concerns are noted, but in reality are perhaps overstated, here's why. Firstly, the wires we are dealing with are heavy enough to handle the output of the alternator and normal battery charging. True 'nuf, they are not as heavy as those found in a *good* quality set of jumper cables, but they are bigger than the conductors found in a very many cheapy jumper cables (copper is expensive, so cheaper cables are made with thinner wire and lots of insulation to make them at least look robust. Some are sneakily made of steel wire that is simply copper coated.. So why don't the cheap jumper cables cause problems? It's due to the their higher internal resistance and the fact that their wiring is not subjected to high current or loading for very long - - the typical cranking cycle should be no more than 10 seconds or so, then give it a rest to avoid overheating the starter motor. The lower quality wire and its higher resistance does limit current and drop voltage, and by it's nature will often not allow a quick jump, but rather force you to wait a little until the host battery charges up a little (as you state). Now in terms of efficiency, and the way to jump start a vehicle using less than bodacious jumper cables (or in my case jumping the terminals of the diode isolator), you are correct. Hook the cables or jumper up and wait a short while. Don't usually have to wait half an hour though . . . even a few minutes will often do for a quick attempt at cranking. If it turns over and starts, fine, if not no damage done. If it either doesn't turn over or starts to do so and quickly slows, simply wait a little longer before trying again. Cables will not go up in smoke, though they will sometimes get slightly warm, honest. Many RV's are sold with a 'booster button' as a standard feature. It does exactly what I suggested, using a solenoid (contactor) to bypass the diode isolator so you can self jump-start. Doubtless not many of their owners have the patience to sit there pushing that button for more than a few minutes before having a go at starting!all the best,bumper[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: My LD won't start! Reply #18 – January 29, 2013, 06:31:41 pm Yahoo Message Number: 136496Trying again. Could the battery isolator be the round thing with four terminals, two medium sized and two smaller ones, mounted on side wall of the engine compartment? What I see has White-Rogers and the word coil on a printed label. The radio is powered from it. Just wondering. Your solution is over my head to do. I have no need to do any arc welding with the batteries trying to figure it out.My low tech solution would be to fire up the genset and plug in the battery charger.On Thu, 03 Jan 2013 04:40:33 -0000, "bumpersoar" wrote:QuoteI use the house batteries too. But instead of leaping out (maybe in the rain) and hooking up jumper cables, I flip a switch which activates a solenoid to connect the two outboard terminals on the battery isolator. This effectively connects the house to chassis battery. Also allows charging of the chassis battery while parked.If I didn't have that solenoid installed, a simple one foot long cable with clips on each end would suffice to connect those two outboard isolator terminals together to do the jump start.bumper Cheers, Don
Re: My LD won't start! Reply #19 – January 30, 2013, 11:55:45 am Yahoo Message Number: 136506"Posted by:Don Malpas" cool_delta_mike Trying again. Could the battery isolator be the round thing with four terminals, two medium sized and two smaller ones, mounted on side wall of the engine compartment? What I see has White-Rogers and the word coil on a printed label. The radio is powered from it. Just wondering. Your solution is over my head to do. I have no need to do any arc welding with the batteries trying to figure it out.My low tech solution would be to fire up the genset and plug in the battery charger." Nope, that round thing is a contactor ('aka" relay, solenoid). They come in two basic flavors, intermittent duty for starters and such, and continuous duty for things like battery switching, electric golf carts, master switches and the like. Some SOBs will have such a contactor already installed to connect the motor and coach batteries to allow for boost starting. To my knowledge, LD doesn't offer that. The battery isolator, assuming it's a "diode type" as used in my '05 LD, will often be a finned rectangular block shape of anodized aluminum guessing 3" X 3" X 7" or so and mounted to the engine side of the firewall or fender well.bumper
Re: My LD won't start! Reply #20 – February 03, 2013, 02:56:08 pm Yahoo Message Number: 136631QuoteNope, that round thing is a contactor ('aka" relay, solenoid). They come in two basic flavors, intermittent duty for starters and such, and continuous duty for things like battery switching, electric golf carts, master switches and the like. Well, it's a mystery to me. It reads 14.3 volts with the engine running. I guess the Mothership installed it. They connected the radio to it. And the radio runs off the house batteries.QuoteThe battery isolator, assuming it's a "diode type" as used in my '05 LD, will often be a finned rectangular block shape of anodized aluminum guessing 3" X 3" X 7" or so and mounted to the engine side of the firewall or fender well. Don't see a thing like that. This is an '07.You have me curious. A call to Vince might enlighten me.Cheers, Don
Re: My LD won't start! Reply #21 – February 03, 2013, 03:40:33 pm Yahoo Message Number: 136633"don't see a thing like that. This is an '07."Don Your LD has the heavy-duty continuous relay-type isolator instead of the diode-type. They started this in 2007. The conventional diode has a little voltage drop across it so the coach battery charges at .2-.5-volts less. Not a big deal if you primarily use solar for charging. The relay, when the contacts are in good condition, has no voltage drop, charging the coach battery at the same voltage as the starting battery. The only downside is if you accidentally leave the ignition on for a long period, when shore power or solar isn't available, both the coach ans starting batteries can be run down. It isn't too likely. There are "smart" relays available that will only connect the two battery banks together when the alternator's voltage exceeds 13-volts. They are popular in marine applications where two dead batteries can be fatal. I have seen many diode isolators burn out but none of the relays used in the newer LDs, appearing to be a well product. In my experience, high quality marine-grade relays are as good or better than diodes. They must be water-proof. I have had too many cheaper contactors go bad (the type that look like old Ford starter solenoids). Marine or industrial grade is the way to go. We had a long discussion in 2009 about the new relay isolators, in a thread starting with message 101397. http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/lifewithalazydazerv/message/101397?threaded=1&l=1Larry
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