Log In | Register
Skip to main content
Topic: On & Off Again Fluorescent Fixture (Read 9 times) previous topic - next topic
0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
On & Off Again Fluorescent Fixture
Yahoo Message Number: 129081
Before I begin to dismount my kitchen fluorescent light I thought I'd throw this out for discussion.
 This fixture has a mind of it's own. Shortly after I turn it on it will turn itself off. If I wait a few minutes it will self-heal and come back on for several minutes before it fails the next time.
 Any one seen this??? Could it be a ballast problem? The tubes seem okay, no black ends, and they are indexed correctly, etc.

It's just the one fixture so I can't fault the power source, DC.

I haven't a clue!

Steve S.

Lazy Bones & Jiggs
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: On & Off Again Fluorescent Fixture
Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129083
Quote
If you want to replace the ballast circuit board, there's a link there.  If the failure is one of the diodes I mention, (the circuit board will be discolored there) and you're up to some soldering, there's some repair hints there.  I took the opportunity to update that fixture to LEDs.

If the lamp cycles, I would not suspect a diode, as the condition would more likely be permanent. If you have swapped the tubes from a good fixture, then the ballast is the likely culprit, though. Likely there would be a poor solder contact somewhere on the board, and you might see some blackening from arcing at that point. Resoldering anything suspicious would be a good way to start.
 If the repair is going to be more involved, then replacement with an LED fixture IS a good move, but you need to be aware that LED emitters are directional, very unlike fluorescent tubes. So, if illuminating the counter directly below is the only goal, you can opt for far fewer 'lumens' from the LED fixture for the same intensity as you have now, saving a lot of amp-hours of charge depletion. If you like the broad area illumination the fluorescent fixture, though, which produces less shadowing and gives useful lighting across the aisle, then you'll need to avoid 'strip' lighting in favor of fixtures using a turret style emitter array with 360-degree illumination. Also, don't expect the LED efficiency to be more than about double that of a fluorescent producing the same lumen output. LEDs provide the biggest savings when used to replace incandescent bulbs and fixtures.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: On & Off Again Fluorescent Fixture
Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129084
Steve,

I have no idea if it is the ballast or not. I would however consider taking Alex's advice and replacing the fluorescent with LEDs. They are easy to install, and the pronged ends allow you to adjust them so the light shines where you want it to. One 18" LED light is equivalent to 2 fluorescent bulbs. And you have the advantage of energy efficiency. We are very happy with the Starlight LEDs we purchased at Quartzsite this past January, and would be glad to show them to you if you plan to be at Moro Bay.
Beverly
'07 TK   
-
Re: On & Off Again Fluorescent Fixture
Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129089
Quote

Steve,

"We are very happy with the Starlight LEDs we purchased at Quartzsite this past January, and would be glad to show them to you if you plan to be at Moro Bay."

Beverly
'07 TK

Beverly

I'm sorry that I won't be able to make it to Morro Bay, would have liked to have seen your new LED fixture.
 I think I have identified the ones you bought at Q but am not certain. Can you let me know which (of the many) Starlight bulbs you installed??? Thanks.

Steve S.

Lazy Bones & Jiggs
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: On & Off Again Fluorescent Fixture
Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129092
Quote
Steve,
 "I think the ballast problem is most likely.  See my note on Techsnoz here:
 http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Techsnoz/message/2098
I took the opportunity to update that fixture to LEDs."

Quote
Alex Rutchka '05 MB
Alex
 In reading the Techsnoz msg 2098 I spotted this; "The circuit board gets tossed away and 1/6 the power is used."
 What LED device did you use and how was it wired. I presume directly to the B+ supply leads?
 It would seem to me that the LED option is the best way to go. So far I have been researching the 'Starlight Revolution T8 LED Tube Light. But the installation instructions for it indicate that the ballast remains in place and the T8 tube harness is wired to it.

Seems you used something different, no?

Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Jiggs
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: On & Off Again Fluorescent Fixture
Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129097
Quote
Steve,
 "The ballast and fluorescent tube sockets are totally removed, drilling out rivets as needed. The Jirah pair of LED strips wires are color-coded so using wiring nuts to wire it up replacing the ballast is straight forward."

Alex Rutchka, SE #4 '05 MB
Okay Alex, I'm beginning to zero in on the situation! Your mention of "Jirah" was the clue I needed. I Googled Jirah and found their web-site.
 Which one did you use; JC-42-FL Single strip, double row at $25 or the JC-42-FL-T twin strips, double row at $45 or the JC-72-FL Single strip, double row at $33 or the JC-72-FL-T twin strips, double row at $60 (which would be my choice)???
 What about directionality (is that a word?), does it light up the surrounding area. The StarLight would seem to have the advantage there due to the fact that it's light can be  directed.

Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Jiggs
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: On & Off Again Fluorescent Fixture
Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129099
Quote
Steve

You leave it in place but it is bypassed
Roger

Roger
 Which LED replacement are we talking about? I've found two, one of which utilizes the existing ballast.

Quote

Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Jiggs
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: On & Off Again Fluorescent Fixture
Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129102
Steve
 I have seen the Jarahleds and they are bright but I did not like the blueish-white color.
The are rated at 6400K and I prefer an much colder Warm-white.
http://www.jirahled.com/ JC-72-FL FLUORESCENT TUBE -Color is Cool white at 6400K.
 I saw the LED strips Andy added to his LD and liked the 3200K color much better.
http://www.inspiredled.com/under_cabinet.html 18" Designer Series LED Panel - $23 bare strips or $25 with plastic housing. 3-watts Warm white-3200K or Cool white-6400K
 I'm in the middle of a LED makeover using Sylvania LEDs found at my local RV supply store, the Home Depot. Sylvania has three 12-volt 3-watt bulbs available at HD and they are very nice with even wide, even patterns and no hot spots.
The two spots are used in either aircraft-style lights or in DIY exterior lights, housed in PVC  pipe fittings. They are brighter than a 10-watt halogen, equal to about 15-watts halogen.
The capsule light was a surprised when I discovered it will fit, with a little Dremel work, in a puck-light. I have a LD Factory puck wired with one and in the process of building a couple more.
I like the warm 2700K color. I have one 4000K interior spot for detail work and the rest are 2700K bulbs.

Philips AccentLED 3-Watt MR11 Spot Light Bulb Model # 40986- 4000K
http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Light-Bulbs-LED-Light-Bulbs/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbm79/R-202514339/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051>
 Philips AmbientLED 3.5-Watt MR11 Flood Warm Light Bulb            Model # 414978- 2700K
http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Light-Bulbs-LED-Light-Bulbs/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbm79/R-202673038/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051>

Philips AccentLED 3-Watt (20W) LED T3 Capsule Light Bulb Model # 41839- 2700K
http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Light-Bulbs-LED-Light-Bulbs/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbm79/R-203001438/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&storeId=10051>
 No photos yet but I will try to get some up or come to the Yahoo West GTG, next week, and see them in person.

Larry
2001 MB
* Not to be confused with Larry W (3000 of my posts are actually from expert Larry W due to Yahoo transition mis-step)
Re: On & Off Again Fluorescent Fixture
Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129106
Quote



Steve

You leave it in place but it is bypassed

Roger

Roger
 Which LED replacement are we talking about? I've found two, one of which utilizes the existing ballast.
Steve,

I've installed a couple of the StarLights Revolution T8-18s.
The switched 12V lead and the ground lead going to the ballast are cut and the StarLights wiring harness is connected instead of the ballast (I used wire nuts, then tape).  The ballast is still physically in place, but electrically disconnected.  One Starlights tube was bright enough for us to replace the two fluorescent tubes.  The 4500 Kevin color temperature is about the same warm-white as the LED bulbs we used in the incandescent fixtures.

Art
Art and Barbara
Settled in Atterdag Village of Solvang
2015-2022 fulltime in a 2016 Tiffin Allegro Bus 37AP
2002-2015 2002 LD MB
Art's blog
Re: On & Off Again Fluorescent Fixture
Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129113
LED's by design don't need a ballast.  I bought the Starlight flourescent tube replacemment at Q also.  You just snip the wires going to the ballast and splice them to the tube replacement wires.  Polarity is not an issue.  ( I always turn it on before putting it back in the tube sockets to make sure it works)  The hardest part is replacing the sheet metal reflector that you take out to access the ballast wiring.  It was suggested that you just leave it out as the replacement tube has its own reflector and when the plastic cover is back on, you can't see that it is gone anyway.
Re: On & Off Again Fluorescent Fixture
Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129116
Steve,
 For the record, I used the JC-72-FL-T twin strips for $60.  Yes, they produce daylight white light, i.e. bluer than the "warm" fluorescents.  It's OK by me.
 The plastic "lens", i.e. cover, disperses the LED light a fair amount, but it does not match the dispersion of the original fluorescents.
 Also, I am reminded that the LED strips must have a diode "full bridge" so you can't screw up the wiring.

Alex Rutchks, SE #4 '05 MB
Re: On & Off Again Fluorescent Fixture
Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129120
Quote
Steve,

"For the record, I used the JC-72-FL-T twin strips for $60."

Alex Rutchks, SE #4 '05 MB
Excellent information and advise Alex (and to all others who responded to this topic)
 I'd narrowed it down to the Star Lights Revolution T8-18 or the Jirah JC-72-FL-T twin pack. It would seem that the best bang for the buck is with the Jirah strips.
 Now, if I can get the stupid thing to fail again... swapped two good tubes from a second fixture with the two suspect tubes from the failing fixture and now they both work just fine. Go figure!

Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Jiggs
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: On & Off Again Fluorescent Fixture
Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129124
Quote
Steve,

You know what they say:

"If it works, don't fix it!" :)

Alex
Alex
 How does that play with 'Murphy's Law' ?? Or is it all part and parcel?

Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Jiggs
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: On & Off Again Fluorescent Fixture
Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129125
To lejest, I had the same problem, the on and off business with one of the fluorescent fixtures. I ordered and installed a new ballast from Sunray Distributing which fixed the problem. The old ballast had a large wire wound resistor which was blackened and scorched, evidence of overheating. I'd have gone with the LED option but neither Susan nor I like the cold morgue like quality of the LED lighting.

Nick 2000 30' IB ( unnamed, so far )
Re: On & Off Again Fluorescent Fixture
Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129128
Quote
To lejest,

"...the cold morgue like quality..."

Nick 2000 30' IB ( unnamed, so far )
Nick

Well, since you put it that way... I hope I wont have to do anything.

How are you liking your 30'IB??? That's the one I've got.

Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Jiggs
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: On & Off Again Fluorescent Fixture
Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129131
"I'd have gone with the LED option but neither Susan nor I like the cold morgue like quality of the LED lighting."
 I agree--I dislike the cold, bluish light of older LED fixtures--but as others here have pointed out, that's no longer the only choice. See Larry Wade's recent message #129102 for a link to InspiredLEDs' warm-white LED strips. After trying a couple of these, I'm going to replace all my fluorescents with them.
 By my measurements, two inspiredLEDs strips that provide the same light as a dual-tube fluorescent fixture draw 600 milliamps total, compared with 2,500 mA for the factory-installed fluorescents. The two I bought cost $50--less than a 12V fluorescent fixture--and they draw one quarter the power. The light they emit is warm and slightly yellowish... quite pleasant to my eyes.
 By the way, LDer Armand Pileggi gets credit for discovering these. I saw them in his 1998 30-footer and immediately ordered some for myself. :-)

Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: On & Off Again Fluorescent Fixture
Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129133
Quote
By my measurements, two inspiredLEDs strips that provide the same light as a dual-tube fluorescent fixture draw 600 milliamps total, compared with 2,500 mA for the factory-installed fluorescents. The two I bought cost $50--less than a 12V fluorescent fixture--and they draw one quarter the power. The light they emit is warm and slightly yellowish... quite pleasant to my eyes.
Andy, note when you use a light meter to measure intensity of illumination on a surface - lux, foot-candles, or whatever - you are not measuring the total lumens. The fluorescent fixture is almost certainly much more powerful than a 600mA LED lightstrip, but the narrow beam dispersion of the LEDs will concentrate their light in your measurement window. The IKEA lightstrip I used above our kitchen counter measures about the same with my meter measuring light reflected from a white sheet of paper, as the fluorescent, even though it only draws about 300mA. However, the contents of tall pans on the stove are dark, as are the drawer contents across the aisle, and even my hands, if held well above the counter surface. All are plainly illuminated if I use the fluorescent. However, the strip fixture works fine for 90% of our counter needs, I have separate LED lighting over the stove, and an LED ceiling fixture to find that razor-sharp knife safely in the drawer.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: On & Off Again Fluorescent Fixture- now LEDs
Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129137
"I'd have gone with the LED option but neither Susan nor I like the cold morgue like quality of the LED lighting."
 Just a few years ago LEDs were limited to a blueish-white, not a very pleasant indoor color IMO.
Now, solid-state designers can produce almost any color, including LEDs that mimic conventional incandescent lighting, what is referred to as "warmer".
 Below are two links to information on color temperature for those who want to know what it really means.
http://www.soslightbulbs.com/colortemperaturechart.aspx  Color temperature chart http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature  Wiki I'm not a fan of cool-white florescent, preferring the yellowish tones of a incandescent. Luckily, warm-shite tubes are available.  My likes are the same when it comes to LEDs, used in the interior I have used LEDs for exterior lights for many years but the color kept me from using them inside.  Up until now, I have used halogens to get the best bang for the amp-hour, even though halogens are a little  bright. Now that cooler LEDs are commonly available, I getting in.

To recap the three LED strips used to replace florescent tubes.
-Jirah JC-72-FL-T  6400K, $60 for two, power usage not listed.
-Star Light Revolution T8-18 4500K, $40-Amazon, 638ma at 12-volts -Inspiredled 18" Designer Series LED Panel 3200K- $25.00, $23 without case, 300Ma at 12-volts, two needed to replace two fluorescent tubes. Individual units can be daisy-chained.
 The Revolution LED has the feature of being rotatable so it can be aimed, an elegant design.
The Inspiredled LED can be mounted almost anywhere, having its own case, defuser and mounting feet.
 The cost different between the three is minimal so consider the mounting and, more importantly, the color of the light.
LED lighting is rapidly changing with big cost drops so expect to see even better available product in the near future. Changing to LEDs, as a way to extend dry camping time, is a lot simpler and cheaper than adding batteries or more solar.

Larry
2001 MB
* Not to be confused with Larry W (3000 of my posts are actually from expert Larry W due to Yahoo transition mis-step)
Re: On & Off Again Fluorescent Fixture
Reply #22 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129141
"note when you use a light meter to measure intensity of illumination on a surface - lux, foot-candles, or whatever - you are not measuring the total lumens. The fluorescent fixture is almost certainly much more powerful than a 600mA LED lightstrip, but the narrow beam dispersion of the LEDs will concentrate their light in your measurement window."
 Excellent point, Steve. I use the same impromptu measurement method you do--a photographic light meter looking at a sheet of white paper--so of course I'm only measuring light in a relatively small area. And it's true that LEDs are much more directional than fluorescent tubes. About all I can say is that the two warm white InspiredLEDs strips I used, when mounted under the cabinet over my sink, *appear* to be nearly as bright as the adjacent fluorescent fixture with warm white tubes.
 To clarify, right now I have a pair of 18" InspiredLEDs "Designer Series" strip lights, which come in mountable 1/2" diameter diffuser tubes. I have not yet received the just-plain-LED strips from the same company, which are identical but have no diffusers. I intend to mount those inside my fluorescent fixtures, replacing the tubes, so they will be using the fixtures' own diffusers. I'd expect them to be slightly less bright, since the fluorescent fixtures' diffusers are more opaque than the InspiredLEDs Designer Series housings. I'll post a followup when I get them, late next week.

Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: On & Off Again Fluorescent Fixture
Reply #23 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129143
Quote
To clarify, right now I have a pair of 18" InspiredLEDs "Designer Series" strip lights, which come in mountable 1/2" diameter diffuser tubes. I have not yet received the just-plain-LED strips from the same company, which are identical but have no diffusers. I intend to mount those inside my fluorescent fixtures, replacing the tubes, so they will be using the fixtures' own diffusers. I'd expect them to be slightly less bright, since the fluorescent fixtures' diffusers are more opaque than the InspiredLEDs Designer Series housings. I'll post a followup when I get them, late next week.
I'll be interested to see how that works for ceiling lights. I'm somewhat 'lucky' with our '83, since the ceiling fluorescents are surface mount - leaving only a small hole for the wiring when removed. This allowed me to install a double-incandescent fixture (much smaller) and use turret-style bayonet LED bulbs, when I replaced one ceiling fixture. These illuminate much the same pattern as the fluorescent did. At 252 lumens ea, a total of 504 lumens of warm-white light, or half that if using just one. At max, the illumination is much less than the fluorescent, but still plenty, and more pleasant than either the cool-white or fluorescent's version of 'warm-white'.
 I left a fluorescent in place on our lounge area ceiling, since the wide illumination is useful for accessing our upper storage cupboards. Since that is all we use that light for, it rarely used anyway. Even though the efficiency advantage of LEDs over fluorescents is not that great, the LEDs allow you to place the light exactly where you want it, and exactly as much as you need.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: On & Off Again Fluorescent Fixture
Reply #24 –
Yahoo Message Number: 129144
Quote
"To clarify, right now I have a pair of 18" InspiredLEDs "Designer Series" strip lights, which come in mountable 1/2" diameter diffuser tubes."

Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Andy
 How did you make the connection from the LD 12vDC to the Designer Series tubes?? I presume you are NOT using the provided 'power brick', correct?

Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Jiggs
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!