Dry camping battery operations November 14, 2011, 12:07:08 am Yahoo Message Number: 126596Hello, all - I'm looking for comments on battery operations for dry camping. I'm running the two standard Trojans and the 45 amp factory converter, no solar, no battery meter. (I have a 60 amp intelligent charger I may install, but I'm not sure I want/need the current). I like to run a lot of lights in the evening, and the radio and computer/network. Running the big Onan for a couple of hours each day (late afternoon) is the usual recharge plan, but I don't think I always get a full recharge, and it is noisy/expensive while running the generator at low power much of the time. I'm looking at running a quiet 1000 watt portable generator for most of the evening, to get a bit more daily generation that is cheaper and quieter. The plan is to start the generator at sunset; run the lights/radio/computer/network, optionally disconnect or otherwise avoid charging the batteries if the total generator load is too high, then charge the batteries to 95-100%(while sleeping), and have the charging and generator stop automatically at that point. This should better balance generator capacity and load, power usage, noise, generation cost, I think. I could generate more energy, and run the batteries with less discharge and full recharge, avoiding most bulk charging. I have no idea how to automatically manage the load/charging on-off/generator stop issues; I assume I could find a way. I guess if the batteries get too discharged, the little generator's breaker will trip out and I will have to start the Onan. I assume I can solve the portable generator/gasoline storage/tank problems.Make any sense?Regards, TS
Re: Dry camping battery operations Reply #1 – November 14, 2011, 12:52:56 am Yahoo Message Number: 126597Quote I'm looking at running a quiet 1000 watt portable generator for most of the evening, to get a bit more daily generation that is cheaper and quieter. The plan is to start the generator at sunset; run the lights/radio/computer/network, optionally disconnect or otherwise avoid charging the batteries if the total generator load is too high, then charge the batteries to 95-100%(while sleeping), and have the charging and generator stop automatically at that point. Unless your camping is typically dispersed, few cg rules allow running a generator late, and it is bad manners if near other campers. I would shift generator hours to daytime/early evening, or mid- to late- morning to put a charge back. Switch to LED lights and check other methods to reduce consumption, or install solar panels and skip the generator.Steve
Re: Dry camping battery operations Reply #2 – November 14, 2011, 01:14:37 am Yahoo Message Number: 126598Actually, the power converter (45 amps max) will be performing the charging duties, regardless of using of the Onan or an external generator. If you want a faster charge, you will have to run the truck engine. You can monitor the battery voltage on the solar controller. The lower limit is around 11 volts. Just make sure you have started the Onan before it gets that low.Regarding the external generator, keep
Re: Dry camping battery operations Reply #3 – November 14, 2011, 08:03:28 am Yahoo Message Number: 126599I agree with everything said here: you need to install that 60A converter to take best advantage of either of your gensets. In addition to the fact that no campground I've stayed in, public or commercial, permits running generators overnight, that small generator is way too easy to steal while you're asleep. (In fact, mine was stolen while I was eating dinner in a friend's rig.) Use the big Onan, but with a converter that will let it do its job efficiently.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Dry camping battery operations Reply #4 – November 14, 2011, 10:50:35 am Yahoo Message Number: 126605TS: I'll echo what others have said about looking at ways to reduce your electrical consumption. We drycamp a fair amount and get along fine with the standard two Trojan batteries and two factory-installed solar panels. This past year I converted all our interior lights to LED's and they have made an amazing difference. Previously we'd awake
Re: Dry camping battery operations Reply #5 – November 14, 2011, 11:04:24 am Yahoo Message Number: 126606QuoteYour 60 amp charger will fill up the batteries in about two-thirds the time of the 45 -amp, but it would most likely require larger than a 1KW generator to do that. Frankly, if it were me (and I do the same thing btw), I would ... just stick with the Onan. Its fuel supply is safe, and is relatively quiet. If you change to LED lighting, you can increase your battery run time considerably. [I need to add LEDs to my lighting, the original fluorescent lights in my '06 are real juice suckers.] There are some misconceptions about battery charging that may cause folks to misjudge their needs. Unless heavily discharged, flooded-cell batteries will not accept a high rate of charge, due to battery chemistry, at any charge voltage safe to use with lights, electronics, or other appliances. The higher rates of charge would normally be encountered for any length of time only for those with large battery banks, and those who regularly discharge their pair of Trojans below 60%. If you find that your converter is charging at less than its maximum rated capacity now, and battery voltage is at 13.2V or more, then upgrading capacity alone is a waste of money. However, a good multi-stage charger will do a better job of eventually bringing the batteries back up to full charge. Also, if your converter is rated at 45A, you can install another 45A converter without also upgrading the wiring. It would be best to do a full analysis of your power needs before making any changes. Also, with regards fluorescent light fixtures: typically, for equivalent light output, fluorescents are about half as efficient as LED fixtures - not a radical issue. If your main lighting is from these, then any significant improvement in conservation will come mostly if you install replacement LED fixtures that allow operation at reduced illumination levels for those times you don't need all the light. Also for reading, LED spot or flood beams work great at a tiny fraction of the power. If you frequently use your incandescent fixtures, then replacing those bulbs with LEDs can improve efficiency by about an order of 10.Steve
Re: Dry camping battery operations Reply #6 – November 14, 2011, 04:27:47 pm Yahoo Message Number: 126609Interesting comments, that is where my thinking led me; the apparent need to recharge back to 100% without much time in the high current bulk charge phase, and the need for a lot of evening current raises the thought of running a small generator to provide evening current, and then, after lights out, to do the low current charging to get from about 80% charge to 100%. 1000 watts seems about right if I am correct. Maybe about 4-6 hours run time per day. The usage is just people lighting up the whole interior, computers, network, power tools, DVD/TV, music, radios, exterior lighting, fans(maybe all night), small inverter, battery chargers, water pump, sometimes furnace maintaining 50 degrees all night, on and on. I use a booster to provide a 12 volt circuit for equipment that needs 13 volts+ when I am on battery. I keep thinking why try to run every evening off a high capacity battery/charging system? Gasoline can meet the need very quietly, lightweight, simple, cheap, standard RV equipment, just add the small generator with increased fuel capacity(maybe).The LED's might be worth it, I'm not sure here. Lots of battery and solar seems like the ultimate, but I'm not sure I need/want to add batteries/infrastructure, run the Onan at higher load a lot, run the Onan a lot at light load for 85-100% charge, or maybe add solar/park in the sun. (Expensive, time-consuming improvements are scary when you are thinking you might really want a different RV). Also I am looking at shading the roof, which runs counter to solar. No-neighbor dry camping can be quite cheap(free or $5 a night, maybe). Most times when others are nearby, I find there is usually shore power. The case of no shore power and others nearby seems more rare, but then I do less usage, deeper discharge, and short Onan runs during the noisiest part of the day (unless it is not ok with quiet neighbors). The improved converter would only help here. The counter argument is, if you don't dry camp often enough, just use the bulk charging/appliance-driving Onan in "overkill" mode sometimes. If you drill out the hole in the carry handle that passes through the isolation mount, you can get a good padlock through, and use a large cable or chain to provide security for the generator. The RV power cord(lock that to the RV, too) allows distant, quiet placement. The toad (pickup) can carry the gen and fuel tank; using the RV or toad fuel system seems desireable. The twin king appears to have room to carry a generator under the rear floor. I'm not sure how to provide a remote kill button for the generator; maybe get at the contacts for the shutoff switch or the oil pressure shutdown switch. Might need a timer; you can easily forget that these generators are running if the windows are closed. Is it reasonable to short/high current the generator output to trip it off? I wish someone made a small, quiet generator that had more of a horizontal form factor and a large built in fuel tank. More of a continuous duty design would be nice, too, rather than buy used, run it to max hours, replace.TS
Re: Dry camping battery operations Reply #7 – November 14, 2011, 04:41:30 pm Yahoo Message Number: 126610Make sure the 60A converter works like a 3 stage charger; ie, it should charge at 60 amps until the battery voltage rises to about 14.5 volts, hold there until the charge current drops to about 5 or 10 amps, then reduce the voltage to about 13.7 volts. If it just supplies current at 13.7 volts, it will take a lonnng time to fully charge the battery. I find the motorhome engine alternator very ineffective at charging the house battery, because it's adjusting it's output for the engine battery, which is typically near full charge already, and in a much warmer place. The 50 amp charger built in to my Xantrex inverter charges the house battery in 1/3 the time, whether run on the Onan or shore power.The 1000W generator may not even do a good job of running a 60 amp 3-stage charger (or even a 45 amp 3 stage charger, for that matter). Unless it is a very sophisticated charger, it will draw pulses (120 times per second) of current that the generator can not supply, causing it to shut off or reduce it's voltage, and the charger will not supply it's full rated current. This is normal operation, which goes unnoticed when plugged into shore power or the much larger motorhome generator, both of which can supply these spikes of current.Eric
Question about roof size Reply #8 – November 14, 2011, 07:07:16 pm Yahoo Message Number: 126612Does anyone know (roughly) the distance from the centerline of the roof to the inside edge of the roof seam? I am not at home to measure our LD and I'm pondering what sort of roof area is available for panel placement. I do realize that weight and other installation factors come into play but I'm not worried about that at the moment.I have pictures of our 1993 30' Island Bed roof taken from an elevated position so I can puzzle out rough dimensions . but it would be really helpful if I knew the distance from the rig centerline to the roof seam. I won't be back stateside for another few weeks and wanted to do a little research before I got home. Thank you in advance for any info.Hugh[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Dry camping battery operations Reply #9 – November 14, 2011, 09:08:44 pm Yahoo Message Number: 126617Something to keep in mind: the DC output of these small generators is a tiny fraction of their AC output. For example, Honda's popular EU1000i produces 900 watts of AC, but only 90 watts (7.5 A) of DC. Even the EU2000i produces 1,600W of AC but only 96W (8A) of DC. If you want more than a token amount of 12V power from one of these, you must feed its 120VAC output to your rig's converter--one more reason to have a good three-stage converter. "you can get a good padlock through, and use a large cable or chain to provide security for the generator." Any chain or cable can be cut in seconds with a bolt cutter. Again, I speak from experience: my Honda was well secured when it was stolen from under my nose.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Dry camping battery operations Reply #10 – November 14, 2011, 10:10:25 pm Yahoo Message Number: 126620Sorry to enter this discussion mid stream, but I just got back from dry camping during a rainy/overcast weekend and had several questions along the same lines. I have a 2003 26 ft with a ford v10 and one solar panel. I have 5 month old Trojan T105's but had trouble keeping the charge up with limited evening lighting usage. The water in the battery was a little low, but the plates were not exposed. I refilled the batteries and still the charge would not hold and my voltage would drop to 11.6 despite very limited usage. I tried recharging with both the truck engine and the generator and my gauge showed several amps of charge. It would get to 12.7 volts but drop quickly. Usually when I turn on a fluorescent light the voltage will drop 0.1, but now it drops 0.3. Still no improvement after a very sunny day. When I got home I removed the batteries and took them to be load tested and were told they were fine. Replacing the batteries, my wrench hit metal and generated a spark. My kwickee step now does not work, assuming I blew a fuse.My questions: More efficient to charge the house batteries with the truck or the generator?Other ideas why I am not getting a deep charge? Any idea which fuse in the truck the step is assigned? All the fuses in the LD are fine as are the circuit breakers. Along another line, five months ago, I had the truck battery go out and a jump start from AAA did not get me running. Replaced the battery, and the truck started up immediately. The Ford dealer thinks I am crazy, and says they easily jump V10's without problems. Any thoughts on that.ThanksGlenn Oelker
Re: Dry camping battery operations Reply #11 – November 15, 2011, 12:45:23 am Yahoo Message Number: 126623QuoteI have a 2003 26 ft with a ford v10 and one solar panel. I have 5 month old Trojan T105's but had trouble keeping the charge up with limited evening lighting usage. The water in the battery was a little low, but the plates were not exposed. I refilled the batteries and still the charge would not hold and my voltage would drop to 11.6 despite very limited usage. I tried recharging with both the truck engine and the generator and my gauge showed several amps of charge. It would get to 12.7 volts but drop quickly. Usually when I turn on a fluorescent light the voltage will drop 0.1, but now it drops 0.3. Still no improvement after a very sunny day. If you mean that you are showing 3 - 4 Amps of charge, but the voltage reading is only 12.7V, then something is seriously wrong. My first suspicion would be a bad connection at the batteries, but if the terminals are cleaned and tightened with no improvement, then I would disconnect the battery connection to ground and check each battery voltage after resting for several hours. This will show if you have a shorted cell.Steve
Re: Dry camping battery operations Reply #12 – November 15, 2011, 02:11:38 am Yahoo Message Number: 126625Glenn I have to agree with Steve about the problem likely being in the cables or other connections in the battery and charging wiring. Your rig is going on nine years old and it would be a good time to have someone with electrical knowledge go through the wiring, using a voltmeter, to measure voltage drop throughout the system. Every connection should be checked for resistance, tightness and signs of corrosion. Disassembly of connections for cleaning and coating with dielectric grease is suggested for reducing electrical incidents in the future. It would also be a good time to pull the power distribution panel and tighten all the connections on the back and front of the fuse board. Tighten the 120-VAC circuit breaker wires at the same time. Find the hidden battery circuit breaker, inside the coach between the power center and battery, and check it. I have seen them develop high resistance. Look for burned connections. All the connections inside the battery box are suspect.Just one bad connection can keep the battery from fully charging. Make sure the shore, generator, solar and battery power are all disconnected while working on the power distribution center or other live circuits. There is no good reason why you can't jump a V10. It just takes a big enough booster battery and heavy enough jumper cables. Even small cars, with small batteries, can jump a V10 after waiting long enough for the car's alternator to partially charge the V10's battery.Larry
Re: Dry camping battery operations Reply #13 – November 15, 2011, 02:49:33 am Yahoo Message Number: 126626At one time, LD's 220-amp/hour battery pack was state of the art, something that few class-C RV manufacturers offered. That was back in the dark ages when all we needed at night was a light or two for reading, listening to the radio or sharpening stone tools. Now we have all sorts of HDTVs, satellites, computers, routers, cellphones and what not to keep us up half the night. They all use a lot of electrical power for many hours. If you want to sit in the middle of nowhere and have all of these conveniences, an upgraded electrical system is what you need. The initial financial hit is heavy but the payoff makes it worthwhile. Instead of lugging an additional generator and fuel around (a burden that likely will end when a good Samaritan lifts the generator at 3:00 AM), use the existing Onan. To minimize run time, replace the two T105s with 4 AGMs and add a 100-amp, or bigger, smart-charger. AGMs can accept very high charge rates without damage. More battery capacity allows more power to be stored over a given period of time. Running the Onan for a few hours in the day will probably be better tolerated, when you have neighbors, than running the little Honda all night. I sleep better knowing our Onan is secure and not sitting by it lonesome self, far away. Install a battery meter such as a LinkLite. It will give you the ability to watch the battery and charge only when needed (at the 50% level). A strategy used by sail cruisers, to further decrease generator run time, is to recharge to only the 90% level. It will slightly shorten the battery life but will cut out many hours of generator run time since replacing the last 10% takes a long time, no matter the size or type of the charger. The reduction in gas and generator wear and tear offsets the increase in battery cost.Larry
Re: Dry camping battery operations Reply #14 – November 15, 2011, 07:52:21 am Yahoo Message Number: 126630"More efficient to charge the house batteries with the truck or the generator?" Charging the batteries by idling the engine, as others have noted, is very inefficient. The truck's electrical system is built to deliver power at highway speeds, which means 2,000 rpm or so, not while the engine is lazily ticking over. The generator is a better bet, assuming you have a good converter. The Magnatek and 6300-series Parallax converters that Lazy Daze installed in years gone by are not able to put much juice into the batteries.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Dry camping battery operations Reply #15 – November 15, 2011, 02:31:47 pm Yahoo Message Number: 126638Your house battery voltage should jump up to something over 13 volts almost immediately upon starting the truck engine. Perhaps your diode isolator has failed. This device is between the truck electrical and the house battery, allowing the truck alternator to charge the house batteries, but prevent back feeding current from the house to the truck. Maybe yours has opened up (failed). 12.6 is the nominal voltage of a fully charged system with no charging sources connected. Something is wrong, if yours never goes over 12.7 under charge.-Dave '06 MB, Indianapolis
Re: Dry camping battery operations Reply #16 – November 15, 2011, 06:54:58 pm Yahoo Message Number: 126646QuoteThe generator is a better bet, assuming you have a good converter. The Magnatek and 6300-series Parallax converters that Lazy Daze installed in years gone by are not able to put much juice into the batteries.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/ Has Lazy Daze changed over to a three stage charger in their new coaches?
Re: Dry camping battery operations Reply #17 – November 16, 2011, 08:03:47 am Yahoo Message Number: 126649"Has Lazy Daze changed over to a three stage charger in their new coaches?" I believe the current Parallax model is a two-stage charger of rather modest amperage capacity.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Re: Dry camping battery operations Reply #18 – November 16, 2011, 04:33:47 pm Yahoo Message Number: 126669Quote The generator is a better bet, assuming you have a good converter. The Magnatek and 6300-series Parallax converters that Lazy Daze installed in years gone by are not able to put much juice into the batteries.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/Has Lazy Daze changed over to a three stage charger in their new coaches? At the risk of stepping WAAY outside my knowledge level, Andy's compilation of changes over the years shows that LD made the switch from the Magnatec 6300 series to the Parallax (bought out Magnatec) 7345 solid-state converter in the 2002 model year. I didn't see any change in the specs for newer models. While it is much better than the old 6300 series, from what I have read, the 7345 is, at best, a two-stage converter, with a constant voltage of 13.8, making it both a poor (slow) charger as well as not a great unit to leave plugged in to shore power for long periods as it will boil batteries much faster than a "smart" 3 or 4 -stage charger. There have been discussions previously here regarding upgrading to these smart converters. I stumbled today on what looks to be an absolutely terrific "how-to" site for do-it-yourself replacement of either the 6300 series or the 7345 with a Progressive Dynamics PD9160A smart charger. This site (undated) also mentions a newer PD model, the 9260C, which has an integrated "charge wizard" and which is the same size package as the 9160A. Whether the instructions apply as well to the latter I do not know. What I can say is that this site's instructions for this task are so clear, with photos and step-by-step-for-dummies explanations, that I think even I could follow them. As Joan says, YMMV, but anyone thinking of tackling a replacement should at least take a look. Hopefully, wizer electrical sages than I (are you listening Larry, Steve, Andy, etc?) might review and weigh in. The site is: http://home.earthlink.net/~whemme/-- Electric dufus, Jon ('06TK)
Re: Dry camping battery operations Reply #19 – November 16, 2011, 04:57:35 pm Yahoo Message Number: 126670QuoteI stumbled today on what looks to be an absolutely terrific "how-to" site for do-it-yourself replacement of either the 6300 series or the 7345 with a Progressive Dynamics PD9160A smart charger. This site (undated) also mentions a newer PD model, the 9260C, which has an integrated "charge wizard" and which is the same size package as the 9160A. Jon, although some folks here have used this upgrade, PD actually has a much more direct replacement series PD4600 which requires no modification. The entire lower unit is replaced, chassis and all, along with the fuse board. This also incorporates the Charge Wizard. A caveat for those with REALLY OLD fridges that are 3-way - the PD fuse boards have no accommodation for the special fusing needed for the 12V mode of these fridges. I wired the fridge into a parallel pair of 15A circuits, which so far has worked out.Steve
Re: Dry camping battery operations Reply #20 – November 16, 2011, 06:43:14 pm Yahoo Message Number: 126675Jon..Thanks for the link! By the way.. The article was dated at the bottom -- June 6, 2005..-- Rick
Re: Dry camping battery operations Reply #21 – November 16, 2011, 08:04:16 pm Yahoo Message Number: 126677Thanks for the info. It will jump to 13.8 volts when charging. I still think it is a bad battery. Is it common to pass the load testing and still be bad.Glenn
Re: Dry camping battery operations Reply #22 – November 17, 2011, 09:45:57 am Yahoo Message Number: 126693Which model AGM's do you recommend?Glenn
Re: Dry camping battery operations Reply #23 – November 17, 2011, 10:03:08 am Yahoo Message Number: 126694wrote:Which model AGM's do you recommend? --- I have Lifeline AGMs; others may offer different suggestions. This link (and the pull-down links on the page under "RV Batteries") offers a lot of information: http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/rv.php Joan
Re: Dry camping battery operations Reply #24 – November 17, 2011, 11:34:19 am Yahoo Message Number: 126699Which model AGM's do you recommend?GlennAs said before, Lifeline is a good brand. AGMs have three advantages over wet-cell batteries; they never need added water, they do not need to be ventilated so they can be mounted inside the coach and they can absorb or produce very high current levels without damage.Be aware that in installed in a stock LD, AGM batteries do not offer many benefits over a standard wet-cell battery, other than not needing battery water. To fully utilize the AGM's strengths, you need to install a very large, smart charging system with the ability to recharge at a high rate (minimizing generator run time). The stock converter is too small and does not have the power to take advantage of this capability. Bottom line is AGMs cost two to three times more than a wet battery and the major benefit is not adding water unless you upgrade the charging system or add interior-mounted AGM batteries. An AGM's lifetime in similar to a wet battery.Larry
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