Solar controllers April 23, 2010, 03:37:28 am Yahoo Message Number: 112081Linley and Steve; The HPV-22 website says that it has 'tapered' charging. Since these controllers are pulse width controlled, the voltage peak stays the same but the pulse width decreases to deliver essentially no power in a 'float' mode. The tapered charge may have no abrupt stages, but it does turn on the charged LED at some point. Additionally, the voltage peak can be set with an internal potentiometer according to the website. Ron and Bluebelle a '99TKB[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Solar controllers Reply #1 – April 23, 2010, 12:19:43 pm Yahoo Message Number: 112097QuoteLinley and Steve; The HPV-22 website says that it has 'tapered' charging. Since these controllers are pulse width controlled, the voltage peak stays the same but the pulse width decreases to deliver essentially no power in a 'float' mode. The tapered charge may have no abrupt stages, but it does turn on the charged LED at some point. Additionally, the voltage peak can be set with an internal potentiometer according to the website. Ron and Bluebelle a '99TKB Technically, the 'tapered charge' is simply a consequence of constant-voltage regulation at whatever the absorbtion mode voltage is set to hold. A float mode would be a third stage at either a lower voltage or a low regulated current. The purpose behind a float mode is to provide a safe operating voltage for all appliances with full current delivery capability, while providing just enough charge current to compensate for the internal discharge rate of the batteries. Typically, this occurs at about 13.2 Volts. A higher current could cause lost electrolyte over time. My limited observation of HPV-22 operation shows about a 14.4V absorbtion regulated voltage, which most experts seem to agree is too high for battery maintenance. However, the Heliotrope only holds that voltage until dusk, every day, allowing the battery to rest overnight. So, maybe its ok, unless you plan to summer over in Fairbanks?Steve
Re: Solar controllers Reply #2 – April 23, 2010, 12:24:24 pm Yahoo Message Number: 112098Quote Linley and Steve; The HPV-22 website says that it has 'tapered' charging. Since these controllers are pulse width controlled, the voltage peak stays the same but the pulse width decreases to deliver essentially no power in a 'float' mode. The tapered charge may have no abrupt stages, but it does turn on the charged LED at some point. Additionally, the voltage peak can be set with an internal potentiometer according to the website. Ron and Bluebelle a '99TKB[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] In a classic "float" mode the battery charging source drops the voltage sharply to a maintenance value (typically about 13.2V at room temperature)when the battery charge current falls to a small value. Neither of the Heliotrope products do that. The RV30-S I am familiar with just turns on the charged light when the panel current falls to a small value but does nothing else. As a side note, it is very difficult to do a classic three stage charger without monitoring the BATTERY current. The charger is supposed to go into the float mode when the BATTERY current falls to a small value. The typical solar controller knows only what current is being drawn by the entire coach so it doesn't know when the battery has achieved full charge. That is, it can't tell if the battery is drawing current or if there is another DC load present. There is another problem. Suppose you had a converter with a three-stage charging characteristics plus a separate three-stage solar controller in your RV. How would you coordinate the actions of the two separate systems? This is one of the reasons you don't see many three-stage chargers in RVs. I have thought for some time that someone needs to build a battery management module that replaces the functions of the converter and the solar controller plus adding an alternator charge controller. The broken up, ad hoc system now used in RVs just doesn't do a very good job of managing the batteries.Linley
Re: Solar controllers Reply #3 – April 23, 2010, 01:46:18 pm Yahoo Message Number: 112100QuoteAs a side note, it is very difficult to do a classic three stage charger without monitoring the BATTERY current. The charger is supposed to go into the float mode when the BATTERY current falls to a small value. The typical solar controller knows only what current is being drawn by the entire coach so it doesn't know when the battery has achieved full charge. That is, it can't tell if the battery is drawing current or if there is another DC load present. Very true... I suspect that the more sophisticated systems put a time limit on absorption mode, then switch.QuoteI have thought for some time that someone needs to build a battery management module that replaces the functions of the converter and the solar controller plus adding an alternator charge controller. The broken up, ad hoc system now used in RVs just doesn't do a very good job of managing the batteries. True again, but now that I have multi-stage charge units at both locations, and a separate battery monitor, I'll have a chance to find out if it's a concern. I don't think the alternator is a big issue for most folks, unless they spend endless hours on the road as an everyday occurance. However, coordinating solar and shorepower could be done automatically using an AC-powered disconnect relay in the charge controller output, if necessary. I suspect that some combinations will work fine together, while it may be a problem with others.Steve
Solar controllers Reply #4 – April 23, 2010, 01:51:17 pm Yahoo Message Number: 112101Linley wrote:QuoteThere is another problem. Suppose you had a converter with a three-stage charging characteristics plus a separate three-stage solar controller in your RV. How would you coordinate the actions of the two separate systems? This is one of the reasons you don't see many three-stage chargers in RVs.I have thought for some time that someone needs to build a battery management module that replaces the functions of the converter and the solar controller plus adding an alternator charge controller. The broken up, ad hoc system now used in RVs just doesn't do a very good job of managing the batteries. I agree. My next LD would have such a battery management module if it existed. It would combine the functions of whole house inverter, 3 stage converter, solar controller, alternator charge controller, and a comprehensive monitoring, control, and display panel complete with error codes for trouble-shooting. For the time being, the best battery charging manager is a human being. When on shore power, turn off the solar panels and just use one system. When there is no shore power you use solar. Again just one system. While driving, turn off the solar. Again just use one system. The alternator can easily provide all the charging current your batteries will accept. To prevent over-charging AGM batteries, turn off the alternator after the batteries have reached 100% charge on long drives. I will be installing such a switch in my LD as soon as I can get to West Marine to purchase a compact 250A battery switch. Tom Johnston, Red 2000 TK, Whidbey Island WA, nice day but a cool 58 deg
Re: Solar controllers Reply #5 – April 23, 2010, 02:30:02 pm Yahoo Message Number: 112102Corollary...QuoteVery true... I suspect that the more sophisticated systems put a time limit on absorption mode, then switch. I just checked the owner's manual on my Morningstar MPPT regulator, and it says: "...Depending on battery history, the battery remains in the absorption stage for 3 or 4 hours before transitioning to the float stage."Steve
Re: Solar controllers Reply #6 – April 23, 2010, 03:28:40 pm Yahoo Message Number: 112103I recently contacted Dave at AM solar to find out what I could do to lower the 14.6 charge level readout that I always get when fully charged on my HPV-22 (not "B"). I was concerned that I was cooking the batteries at that level when in storage (outside, using 1 solar panel). Here's what he said (the "option" applies to my HPV-22): "The best solution to your issue is to purchase a new HPV-22B so that you can switch the charging mode to a 13.2 float voltage ("shore power"). The other option is to change dip switch (located in the upper left hand quadrant of the circuit board) # 2 to from "norm" to "low". This will change the charging set point to 13.2V just as the "dry camp/shore power" switch does. Obviously, this is real convenient as it requires that you remove the 4 face plate screws and pull the controller out of the wall to access the dip switch block. "By the way, the Bulk/Taper set point voltage setting for the HPV-22 is 14.3V. The temperature compensation feature raises or lowers that value depending upon the temperature of the batteries (roughly .1V/10deg F above or below 77F, a battery temperature of 50F would put the set point voltage at 14.6V)."So, there you have it from the horse's mouth. -- Jon ('06TK)
Re: Solar controllers Reply #7 – April 23, 2010, 05:12:22 pm Yahoo Message Number: 112104wrote: I recently contacted Dave at AM solar to find out what I could do to lower the 14.6 charge level readout that I always get when fully charged on my HPV-22 (not "B"). I was concerned that I was cooking the batteries at that level when in storage (outside, using 1 solar panel). --- Jon, my controller is an HPV-22B, and the charge level display also shows 14.6v (on "panel power") when the blinking light shows a fully-charged state. I'm getting my list of questions ready for a visit to AM Solar in a couple of weeks; thanks for the reminder!Joan
Re: Solar controllers Reply #8 – April 23, 2010, 05:40:38 pm Yahoo Message Number: 112105Quote I'm getting my list of questions ready for a visit to AM Solar in a couple of weeks; thanks for the reminder!Joan Joan, here is another question you can ask them if you will. I asked them myself by email several months ago but received no reply.Most of us who have AM Solar panels, if our LD didn't come with them from the factory, either had AM install them or we installed them ourselves (as I did) per AM Solar's instructions. They were fastened to the roof with a small stainless steel "foot" at each corner using UHB tape. Now, it seems, they are putting a screw through each "foot", in addition to the UHB tape. Why? Did something happen to someone. Has there been a problem? Why did they rethink this issue? How about all of us who have panels just fastened with UHB tape?TIA for asking if you remember.Tom Johnston
Re: Solar controllers Reply #9 – April 23, 2010, 05:44:45 pm Yahoo Message Number: 112106Tom, When Amsolar installed my panels a couple years ago, they were only taped down. They also put sealant over each foot - apparently someone had cleaned their roof with a solvent, and when he was there for something, they checked and the feet were coming loose.....(mine are good...no budging....but then, I don't use solvent on the roof). I'd like to know why they've changed protocol as well - if you can find out. :-)HelenQuote Joan, here is another question you can ask them if you will. I asked them myself by email several months ago but received no reply.Most of us who have AM Solar panels, if our LD didn't come with them from the factory, either had AM install them or we installed them ourselves (as I did) per AM Solar's instructions. They were fastened to the roof with a small stainless steel "foot" at each corner using UHB tape. Now, it seems, they are putting a screw through each "foot", in addition to the UHB tape. Why? Did something happen to someone. Has there been a problem? Why did they rethink this issue? How about all of us who have panels just fastened with UHB tape?TIA for asking if you remember.Tom Johnston [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: Solar controllers Reply #10 – April 23, 2010, 06:26:38 pm Yahoo Message Number: 112107Helen wrote:They also put sealant over each foot - apparently someone had cleaned Quotetheir roof with a solvent, and when he was there for something, they checked and the feet were coming loose.....(mine are good...no budging....but then, I don't use solvent on the roof). Helen, thanks for that. That is at least one good reason for the screw being used now. I have never used solvent on my roof either and my panels are also still tight as can be. When people clean their seams with solvent in preparation for using eternabond tape, they better be careful near the panels.Tom
Re: Solar controllers Reply #11 – April 23, 2010, 06:35:14 pm Yahoo Message Number: 112108"Tom Johnston" wrote: Joan, here is another question you can ask them if you will.... Most of us who have AM Solar panels, if our LD didn't come with them from the factory, either had AM install them or we installed them ourselves (as I did) per AM Solar's instructions. They were fastened to the roof with a small stainless steel "foot" at each corner using UHB tape. Now, it seems, they are putting a screw through each "foot", in addition to the UHB tape. Why? Did something happen to someone. Has there been a problem? Why did they rethink this issue? How about all of us who have panels just fastened with UHB tape? --- Tom, when I talked with Dave a couple of weeks ago, I asked him if the new panels would be mounted with only the UHB tape or if they would also use screws; he replied that the "leading edge" of each panel would be screwed down in addition to being taped. (From the measurements that I took of the available space on the roof of my TK, it appears like the "leading edges" of each new panel will be the panel's "width" rather than its "length", a good thing because the smaller area seems to present less surface for potential lift.) I don't know why they've gone back to using screws on the panels' leading edges; I haven't heard of any UHB tape failures or of anybody's panels taking off across the landscape! I just figured that the leading edge screws would be put in to provide an additional security margin against wind lift on the front edge of the panel. I'll get all the particulars that I can when I'm there (May 7) and post.Joan
Re: Solar controllers Reply #12 – April 24, 2010, 12:09:36 am Yahoo Message Number: 112112"The other option is to change dip switch (located in the upper left hand quadrant of the circuit board) # 2 to from 'norm' to 'low.' This will change the charging set point to 13.2V just as the 'dry camp/shore power' switch does." That suggests to me that if you're good with a soldering iron, you could add your own "shore power/dry camp" switch to an old HPV-22 unit by paralleling the #2 DIP switch.Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
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