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Topic: New Forest Service proposal reduces Old Age discount to 10% (Read 3 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: New Forest Service proposal reduces Old Age discount to 10%
Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 108124
On Thu, 03 Dec 2009 16:53:45 -0000, "etdcaw"  wrote:

Quote
The really good deal 50% discount for us old folks might be about to end at most FS campgrounds.
This is not unexpected, but still not good news.
It seems to potentially affect only concessionaire run CG's.
However, those seem to be more prevalent each year.
Given a choice, we always opt for non-concessionaire run CG's.
 It does not affect dispersed camping, which is free and is often the best parking available.
 We did encounter an oddity this year in one place in Colorado. In the dispersed area, a fire ring was installed and parking was $3.00/$1.50 payable to a concessionaire.

Cheers, Don
Don & Dorothy
Sold our LD in June of 2023

Our boring always non-PC travel blog
Traveling Dorothy
Re: New Forest Service proposal reduces Old Age discount to 10%
Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 108125
It does not affect dispersed camping, which is free and is often the best parking available.


 It also doesn't affect USFS-run campgrounds, only concessionaire-run campgrounds.
 There is a link in the edocket URL that was given to a comment website.  I hope everyone will take the time to go to that comment page and express your opinion on this proposed deal!

Linda Hylton http://map.datastormusers.com/user1.cfm?user=1167 http://earl-linda.blogspot.com/
Linda Hylton
Re: New Forest Service proposal reduces Old Age discount to 10%
Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 108130
We understand that at this point it only affects concessionaire run campgrounds, but it seems that more and more are being run by concessionaires, therefore, it will affect more and more campgrounds.  What a shame that one of the major perks of being older could become more scarce.

Dorothy MB named Koko Toad named Pelli
2007 MB
Re: New Forest Service proposal reduces Old Age discount to 10%
Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 108140
Quote
Here is the direct link to leave your opinion.
 link: http://www.regulations.gov/search/Regs/ ... 6480a60f36
or
 link: http://www.regulations.gov/search/Regs/home.html#documentDetail?R=0900006480a60f36
2001 MB
* Not to be confused with Larry W (3000 of my posts are actually from expert Larry W due to Yahoo transition mis-step)
Re: New Forest Service proposal reduces Old Age discount to 10%
Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 108158
I read the entire proposal. Since it cites which FS regs would need to be changed, I would say it's a done deal.

Some points I gleaned.
 The current law does not require the FS to offer discounts. They have continued the practice from a law that governed fees prior to 2004.
Based on this, I can not think of an valid argument against eliminating the discount. I don't like losing a "real deal", but the law was changed five years ago.

While my CG fees will nearly double, concessionaire revenue (nationally) will increase by only 9%. The total revenue increase is estimated to amount to 3.36 million. This sounds like pocket change when we hear daily of amounts in trillions. [in case you care to see how much a trillion looks like http://www.pagetutor.com/trillion/index.html%5d

One of the stated arguments for reducing the discount is that the younger generations are unfairly subsidizing the old folks by almost a dollar a night. A case where income redistribution is not deemed fair.

Don & Dorothy An MB named Koko & a Jeep named Pelli SE21, SC 54, NW56 Our Travel Blog: http://travelingdorothy.blogspot.com/ Our Mods Blog http://kokoandpelli.blogspot.com/

Don & Dorothy
Sold our LD in June of 2023

Our boring always non-PC travel blog
Traveling Dorothy
Re: New Forest Service proposal
Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 108162
Don, thanks for your comments. When something like this happens, the natural reaction is to jump up and shout "Don't take away my discount!". But as you point out, that discount isn't something we're *entitled* to under any current law (in fact, many of us here, including myself, weren't eligible); and it requires young campers to subsidize older ones, which doesn't seem equitable.
 Something we all have to face up to is that costs are always going up, and fees will have to follow suit sooner or later. None of us likes paying more money, but we like it even less when campgrounds are shut down because a cash-strapped government can't afford to subsidize them any longer. Well, in the long run it's going to be one or the other--fee increases or closures--and no amount of complaining is going to change that unfortunate fact.

Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: New Forest Service proposal reduces Old Age discount to 10%
Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 108165
One of the stated arguments for reducing the discount is that the younger generations are unfairly subsidizing the old folks by almost a dollar a night. A case where income redistribution is not deemed fair.


 What's unfair about it?  *Old* people have always gotten discounts on stuff so the fact that seniors get a discount at federal campgrounds is just one among many perks of getting old.  I don't see anything unfair about it...we've worked long and hard and deserve some perks of our advanced aged! ;-)
 I don't know about other people, but if USFS concessionaire-run campground refuse to honor the 50% discount, we won't be staying in those campground...and we will be letting them know WHY we aren't staying there.
So, instead of receiving 50% of the camping fee, they'll be receiving ZERO percent from us.  If enough seniors and disabled people (because this applies to the Access Pass, too) follow suit, maybe they'll rethink their position.

Linda Hylton http://map.datastormusers.com/user1.cfm?user=1167 http://earl-linda.blogspot.com/
Linda Hylton
Re: New Forest Service proposal reduces Old Age discount to 10%
Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 108166
We spent some time in SW Colorado this summer and it seemed most of the USFS campgrounds were concessionaire-run.  Most were charging $20/night with no facilities and they did not offer the senior discount(I'm not old enough to get the discount anyway).
 Needless to say, we did not stay in any USFS campgrounds and will not stay in a USFS concessionaire-run campground.
 That being said, there were no shortage of campers on the weekends in these campgrounds.

Bob Albuquerque, NM
Re: New Forest Service proposal
Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 108167
On Sat, 5 Dec 2009, Andy wrote:

Quote
   > Don, thanks for your comments. When something like this happens, the
natural reaction is to jump up and shout "Don't take away my discount!".
But as you point out, that discount isn't something we're *entitled* to under any current law (in fact, many of us here, including myself, weren't eligible); and it requires young campers to subsidize older ones, which doesn't seem equitable.

 Andy, your "subsidize" remark reminds me of the argument that young folks are "subsidizing" social security.  While most of us "older" folks were paying into the system, much more than enough was being collected.  If the "excess" had been put into any kind of a special account instead of being put into the "general fund" it would not be in trouble today.
 With their proposal, instead of gaining more income from us "older ones" they will lose many of us as we choose to use "dispersed" camping or even Wal-Mart.
 By the way, there are many more creative ways of confronting the budget situation that exists today.  I would start by eliminating the "reservation" system and relying much more on volunteer camp hosts and helpers in liew of "concessionaires".

Quote
Something we all have to face up to is that costs are always going up,
and fees will have to follow suit sooner or later. None of us likes paying more money, but we like it even less when campgrounds are shut down because a cash-strapped government can't afford to subsidize them any longer. Well, in the long run it's going to be one or the other--fee increases or closures--and no amount of complaining is going to change that unfortunate fact.

 I wonder how you would feel if it were New Mexico that decdided to do away with the State Park deal that you rely on so heavily.
 I know this is no place for political comments, but I felt your thoughts on this subject needed to be put into prospective.
 Rich Gort - Retired capitalist - Finally getting some benifit from years of contributing to the system - and not wanting to lose one of the few real benifits - 2000 MB - Birch Bay, WA
Former 2000 MB- Now Bullet Crossfire 1800RB trailer pulled by a Chevy 2500HD
Re: New Forest Service proposal reduces Old Age discount to 10%
Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 108169
Quote
We spent some time in SW Colorado this summer and it seemed most of the USFS campgrounds were concessionaire-run.  Most were charging $20/night with no facilities and they did not offer the senior discount(I'm not old enough to get the discount anyway).

 Our experience this summer was different.  We spent the summer traveling in Idaho and stayed at a USFS campground near Stanley.  It, along with most...if not all...the USFS campgrounds in the area were concessionaire-run campgrounds and they did offer the Senior and Access discounts.

Linda Hylton http://map.datastormusers.com/user1.cfm?user=1167 http://earl-linda.blogspot.com/
Linda Hylton
Re: New Forest Service proposal
Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 108170
Quote
Andy, your "subsidize" remark reminds me of the argument that young folks are "subsidizing" social security.  While most of us "older" folks were paying into the system, much more than enough was being collected.

 You know, one of the things that really irks me about taking away the Senior and Access 50% discount (and, yes, the Access Passes will be affected, too...and these aren't age related...you just have to have a permanent disability regardless of age), is that they are trying to increase the concessionaires take for managing the campgrounds on the backs of senior citizens and disabled people (people who probably are least likely to be able to afford price increases).  NOTHING has been said about raising the fees for EVERYONE!!!  Sure sounds like discrimination to me.

Linda Hylton http://map.datastormusers.com/user1.cfm?user=1167 http://earl-linda.blogspot.com/
Linda Hylton
Re: New Forest Service proposal
Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 108171
"While most of us 'older' folks were paying into the system, much more than enough was being collected. If the "excess" had been put into any kind of a special account instead of being put into the 'general fund' it would not be in trouble today."

No argument; I agree.
 "there are many more creative ways of confronting the budget situation that exists today.  I would start by eliminating the 'reservation' system and relying much more on volunteer camp hosts and helpers in liew of 'concessionaires.' "
 No argument there either--I'm sure there are ways that would be less harmful to all our interests. I was simply pointing out that inflation is inexorable. A low-priced car that cost $1,900 in 1960 would cost $12,000 today... and so on. Sooner or later, campground fees have to go up; it's just a fact of life.
 "I wonder how you would feel if it were New Mexico that decdided to do away with the State Park deal that you rely on so heavily."
 As it happens, New Mexico just announced that all its state parks will be closed, due to state-mandated employee furloughs, on the following dates:

Thursday, Dec. 24, 2009

Thursday, Dec. 31, 2009

Friday, Jan. 15, 2010

Friday, April 2, 2010

Friday, May 28, 2010
 Actually, it's worse than that: the parks will be closed from 9 am on December 23rd until 7 am on December 25th, and I presume the other closures will also be extended from one day to two. That means all of us staying in NM parks will have to scramble to find other places to stay for a couple of days. However, while all campers will be forced to leave, the campground hosts will stay. This makes little sense to me, but...
 In addition, New Mexico is planning to close several parks in the coming year. Bluewater Lake is already closed for the winter, and may not reopen.
 So how do I feel? I'd happily pay more to keep these parks open, that's how I feel. If they raised the fees from $10 for dry camping and $14 for water/electric hookups to, say $12/$16, they could probably reduce or eliminate the parks department's budget shortfall, and camping here would still be cheaper than in any other state I know of. That's a win-win solution that I'd be happy with.

Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: New Forest Service proposal reduces Old Age discount to 10%
Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 108175
Quote
It does not affect dispersed camping, which is free and is often the best parking available.


 It also doesn't affect USFS-run campgrounds, only concessionaire-run campgrounds.

There is a link in the edocket URL that was given to a comment
website. I
 
Quote
hope everyone will take the time to go to that comment page and
express your

Quote
opinion on this proposed deal!

Linda Hylton http://map.datastormusers.com/user1.cfm?user=1167 http://earl-linda.blogspot.com/
Linda, Some people evidently don't think they will ever see 62 or possibly be disabled or live on a fixed income. I for one have sent my comments to the Forest Service and hope others will do the same. Hoping it is not already" a done deal".    Dennis
Re: New Forest Service proposal
Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 108176
On Sun, 6 Dec 2009, Andy wrote:

Quote
So how do I feel? I'd happily pay more to keep these parks open,
that's how I feel. If they raised the fees from $10 for dry camping and $14 for water/electric hookups to, say $12/$16, they could probably reduce or eliminate the parks department's budget shortfall, and camping here would still be cheaper than in any other state I know of.
That's a win-win solution that I'd be happy with.

So you'd be OK with a $2/night increase.  Compare that to:

A) $4/night increase if regular camping for all (no reduction) is $10  ($9 instead of $5)  
B) $6/night increase if regular camping for all (no reduction) is $15  ($13.50 instead of $7.50)  
C) $8/night increase if regular camping for all (no reduction) is $20
 ($18 instead of $10)
 That's what we're talking about when we go from a 50% to a 10% reduction from regular rates.
 I get really bugged when our "representives" in government (no matter if it is local, state or federal) can only see raising rates or taxes instead of looking at ways to cut  expenses.  We (as U.S. citizens) already own our national forests....we just want to enjoy them.
 We always make sure that any campsite we use is left in as good or better condition than when we arrived, and I honestly believe that most of us "older" folks do the same.  We rarely even use the bathroom facilities, so with the exception of leaving some garbage (in the appropiate container, of course) and maybe using an RV dump what are we paying for? ? ? ? ?

Rich Gort - 2000 MB - Birch Bay, WA
Former 2000 MB- Now Bullet Crossfire 1800RB trailer pulled by a Chevy 2500HD
Re: New Forest Service proposal
Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 108178
My question is simple: when I'm using the same services as the twenty-year-old in the next campsite over, why should I expect to pay less just because I'm older than he is? After all, it costs the same to collect my trash as it does his, and so on for all the other costs of operating the campground. Why should I get a free ride (or a half-free ride) just because of my age?

Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: New Forest Service proposal
Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 108181
Quote from: Andy"

"...That means all of us staying in NM parks will have to scramble to find other places to stay for a couple of days..."

Andy Baird http://www.andybaird.com/travels/

Maybe there are some BLM areas nearby that could be used for free boondocking???

Chris Horst 2002 30' IB w/pullout dinette
Formerly: 2002 30' IB
Re: New Forest Service proposal
Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 108182
Well said, Andy. I agree with you totally. Thanks for putting it so well

Stephany Smith
2007 MB
Re: New Forest Service proposal
Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 108184
Well Andy, After 40 years of working and paying taxes and sending kids to college, I figure that us oldtimers deserve a break or two by the time we experience the days of living on a fixed income. Out here in the West, the National Forests are public property owned by all of the people except that the Timber companies have all too often hijacked public timber for rediculously low prices which has been going on in Oregon for too many years. If the National Forest wants more revenues, they can raise the cost of harvesting timber. And, if the Federal Government wants to reduce expedentures, they can get out of the Empire building business and reduce or remove our military from over 120 countries.
 If this proposal goes through to increase fees for seniors, it surely will happen to the National Parks and Monuments as well. I strongly suggest that all LDers write their opinions to the Forest Service, and to their congressman and senators as I just did a few minutes ago.
The Iraq War has nearly cost two trillion...I think the US Government can afford to honor the Golden Age Passport.  Yes! It's a good thing for seniors. I figure that we have earned it on more than one occasion.

David 1998 LD MB (Eugene, Oregon)
New Forest Service proposal
Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 108186
Quote
My question is simple: when I'm using the same services as the twenty-year-old in the next campsite over, why should I expect to pay less just because I'm older than he is? After all, it costs the same to collect my trash as it does his, and so on for all the other costs of operating the campground. Why should I get a free ride (or a half-free ride) just because of my age?
Andy Baird

Maybe you shouldn't. But many of us retired folks on fixed income maybe deserve it. The twenty-year-old's income should go up over the years. Ours won't. Besides, I think I've earned it.
Tom Johnston, 26 years US Navy, Vietnam veteran
Re: New Forest Service proposal
Reply #22 –
Yahoo Message Number: 108190
I'll be 65 in a couple of months. I don't figure I deserve anything in the way of hand-outs or discounts due to my age. Oh, if they're offered by some business or park, I'll likely say, "thank you" and accept them . . . but they are not owed me.
 I worked hard like many or most of you. For a number of years when I was a cop I worked two jobs. And I saved, never spending all that I made. Instead of splurging or indulging in my youth I put money aside, not always a lot, but always some. For a good portion of my working career, my payments were maxed out to Social Security . . . and no, I don't expect to ever get all that money back.
 Paying for my retirement is *my* responsibility. I don't expect society to shoulder the burden for my care - - and I guess that applies to discounts too if it means younger folks get to pay more because I'm charged less.
 As to the, "I've earned it" mentality, well yes I have, and honestly too. It's in investments and savings and I'll be paying my own way.

Guess I agree with Andy on this.
 A big part of our country's problems are caused by so many people not taking responsibility for themselves. Rather, for them, this has become an entitlement nation.

bumper Yonder Minden

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bumper
"Yonder" '05 MB
"WLDBLU" glider trailer
Re: New Forest Service proposal reduces Old Age discount to 10%
Reply #23 –
Yahoo Message Number: 108192
I have the white hair that goes with my other qualifications for old age discounts.
When I was young I learned to see the white hair as a sign of wisdom and a cause for veneration.
My grandchildren's generation is learning to see the white hair as an indicator of a free-loader and an easy mark.

I wonder why they kept the 10 %.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: New Forest Service proposal reduces Old Age discount to 10%
Reply #24 –
Yahoo Message Number: 108194
Two cost indicies contained within this document illustrates that the NFS has not recovered their costs.

The index for fee satisfaction is sure to change in 2009.

http://tinyurl.com/yasjxog

Malcolm 02BlueMB
2002 Mid Bath