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Topic: Still working on the LD that won't start (Read 7 times) previous topic - next topic
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Still working on the LD that won't start
Yahoo Message Number: 97549
If I could have some group input I would greatly appreciate it.
I emailed about two weeks ago and said that our 2002, RB LD would not start.
 Well, our mechanic was out today to take a look, and he thinks it is the fuel pump.
 Our situation-we have a winterized LD that sits beside our garage in an RV port that my husband built. The LD has a full gas tank. The jacks are down. This whole set-up is in a small town in Pennsylvania and in a fairly narrow alley.
 My husband did put in a call to the LD company, but they will not be in until Monday. Let me say-he will not do anything until we speak to them, but we thought some group input would be helpful. Another note- our insurance company will pay to tow the LD.

Our mechanic says that the fuel pump is in the gas tank. After considering all of our options, my husband thinks that the easiest solution to this whole situation would be to drill a hole from the inside of the LD to the gas tank, lift the fuel pump out, and put a new fuel pump in. His reasoning-towing to the garage would involve getting the jacks up and getting a tow truck through the alley. Don't know if it could be done. Working at home from under the RV would mean draining the gas, small space, cold, etc. From inside he would have heat and not have to deal with any of the above problems with spacing and fuel and jacks and a narrow alley.
 Another side note-although my husband does not know a lot about cars, engines, etc, he is very good with construction, remodeling, etc, which would mean the "from the inside" solution and having to relay the vinyl, etc is something he knows he can do.

My questions to the group-does this make sense? Does anyone have another solution that we have missed?

Thanks so much for any input.
Kathy
Re: Still working on the LD that won't start
Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 97550
Kathy

Sorry to hear about this.  We have a 2005 and we had some problems (Ford related) a few years ago, and one of the problems turned out to be a bad fuel pump.  They dropped the tank to get at the pump for an exchange.  Since then, I've heard of at least one other 2005 that needed a new fuel pump.
 I know this isn't much help, but I thought I'd at least let you know it isn't unheard of for a fuel pump to fail.

Problems and all, hope you're having a good holiday season.

Kate
 http://cholulared.blogspot.com &

http://www.cholulared.com

Want to find us? Click below, we're #3096 http://map.datastormusers.com/user1.cfm?user=3096
Re: Still working on the LD that won't start
Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 97551
When we lived in an area where it snowed a lot, and had to leave our vehicles outside, the most common problem we and our friends had was water in the fuel from condensation on the inside of the tank.  Water won't pass through the jets in a carbureted engine, so we carried several cans of some type of gas-guard to get things going.  The cheapest you can find is best.
Just make sure it has lots of alcohol.  The alcohol combines with the water, and lets the fuel go through the jets.
 Your LD has a fuel-injected engine, so I would imagine it is more tolerant of water in the gas. Wouldn't hurt to give it a try anyway.  Use one can for each 12 gallons of fuel you have in the tank.

Dick
Re: Still working on the LD that won't start
Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 97552
Hi Kathy,
 It seems like you could check the fuel pump by diconnecting the gas line and turning on the ignition to see if any gas comes out. Also if there is a fuel filter, check that to make sure gas is getting through it.
 An alternative if gas can flow out of the tank without being blocked by a defective fuel pump would be to add and external fuel pump in the fuel line.

My old rig has two fuel pumps in the fuel lines, one for each tank.
Did you try the starter fluid idea? If it runs for a second on the starter fluid then dies it would indicate fuel starvation.

Michelle * http://safoocat.blogspot.com/%c2%a0 * http://flickr.com/photos/safoocat/ * http://amazon.com/shops/safoocat
As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: Still working on the LD that won't start
Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 97553
This is all making my head spin-my husband just came in from standing and staring at the LD. Our mechnaic did give  him a number from a guy who should be able to tow the RV. Now we're thinking that might be the better idea. Husband worried he might hit something drilling through the floor.
Re: Still working on the LD that won't start
Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 97554
Quote
Our mechanic says that the fuel pump is in the gas tank. After considering all of our options, my husband thinks that the easiest solution to this whole situation would be to drill a hole from the inside of the LD to the gas tank, lift the fuel pump out, and put a new fuel pump in. His reasoning-towing to the garage would involve getting the jacks up and getting a tow truck through the alley. Don't know if it could be done. Working at home from under the RV would mean draining the gas, small space, cold, etc. From inside he would have heat and not have to deal with any of the above problems with spacing and fuel and jacks and a narrow alley.
Contacting LD will be no help - there is nothing they can do. If your LD were 2 weeks old, they would still have you contact a Ford warranty center. There is a separation of warranty responsibility between coach builder and chassis supplier, with little gray area.
 There will be a fuel rail service port for checking supply pressure.
This will tell if the pump is working or weak, if the pressure regulator is to blame, or if water has entered the lines and frozen.
If the pump IS the problem, next step would be to check for 12V to the pump. If it still not running or not supplying pressure, then it must be removed. Our '83 Chevy has a steel floorpan over the gas tank, in addition to the LD floor, and I'll bet the Ford is the same. This is a consequence of the van origins of the cutaway chassis. The LD floor itself is 2 layers of plywood with a 1.5" foam core (in our '83).
Likely the tank can be dropped from below without emptying, with the proper jacks. As far as towing, why not find out if possible before dismissing the option.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Still working on the LD that won't start
Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 97555
Quote

"...Another side note-although my husband does not know a lot about
cars, engines, etc, he is very good with construction, remodeling, etc,
 
Quote
which would mean the "from the inside" solution and having to relay the vinyl, etc is something he knows he can do.

My questions to the group-does this make sense? Does anyone have another solution that we have missed?

Thanks so much for any input." Kathy
Kathy, since your husband is not an auto/truck mechanic, I'd strongly suggest you have your LD towed to a reputable Ford dealer and have them do the work.  Check out what Steve (message 97554) recommended and if it indeed is the fuel pump, bite the bullet and have it repaired by professionals.

Chris
Formerly: 2002 30' IB
Re: Still working on the LD that won't start
Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 97556
We do have a Ford garage in town. Actually close enough that we could almost push the LD there. And, its reputation is decent. The tricky part is the alley behind our garage. We called a tow company a few hours ago, and a man is coming out next week with his truck and will tow (if he can) the RV to the garage. I never thought about what would happen if we broke down in our driveway. Oh well, at least it's winter and we have no trips planned.
 And, could I ask-if we turn the generator on-can we get the jacks up? Or, anyone know another way to do this before we move the motorhome?
 Everyone, thanks for the suggestions-made us stop and think that this was a job for a garage and not for us. Now, just hoping whatever the problem is won't cost us more than an arm and a leg.

Kathy
Re: Still working on the LD that won't start
Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 97557
Please don't drill a hole from the inside of your  motorhome and into your gas tank.  That would be totally unnecessary and probably quite dangerous.
You can drop the tank and there is an access port on the top that you unbolt or unscrew and the whole fuel pump assembly lifts out.  If this is beyond your capability or the room and access you have, I would have it towed to a good RV shop in your area and have them do it for you.
Re: Still working on the LD that won't start
Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 97558
My two cents worth is this: drilling a hole into a steel gas tank isn't a good idea simply because you have an ignition source...the drill motor. If you ever were to try this you would need to use an air powered drill..and then you would have to perhaps think about the drill bit, and not causing any sparks on that end.
Re: Still working on the LD that won't start
Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 97565
Quote
If I could have some group input I would greatly appreciate it.
I emailed about two weeks ago and said that our 2002, RB LD would not start.

Well, our mechanic was out today to take a look, and he thinks it is the fuel pump.

Our situation-we have a winterized LD that sits beside our garage in an RV port that my husband built. The LD has a full gas tank. The jacks are down. This whole set-up is in a small town in Pennsylvania and in a fairly narrow alley.

My husband did put in a call to the LD company, but they will not be in until Monday. Let me say-he will not do anything until we speak to them, but we thought some group input would be helpful. Another
note-

Quote
our insurance company will pay to tow the LD.

Our mechanic says that the fuel pump is in the gas tank. After considering all of our options, my husband thinks that the easiest solution to this whole situation would be to drill a hole from the inside of the LD to the gas tank, lift the fuel pump out, and put a new fuel pump in. His reasoning-towing to the garage would involve getting the jacks up and getting a tow truck through the alley.
Don't
 
Quote
know if it could be done. Working at home from under the RV would mean draining the gas, small space, cold, etc. From inside he would have heat and not have to deal with any of the above problems with spacing and fuel and jacks and a narrow alley.

Another side note-although my husband does not know a lot about
cars,
 
Quote
engines, etc, he is very good with construction, remodeling, etc, which would mean the "from the inside" solution and having to relay the vinyl, etc is something he knows he can do.

My questions to the group-does this make sense? Does anyone have another solution that we have missed?

Thanks so much for any input.
Kathy
The majority of places that work on fuel pumps will be able to safely drain and store your fuel during repairs, then refill your tank.  Make sure the tow service you use (actually the tow truck driver) has the experience in moving "dead" vehicles from tight spaces.  That's why they are "experts" and why you have insurance/coverage for tows!!!

Don't ask me how "Blue" and his friend "the Big Ugly" pick up truck know about these things!!!

Good luck, and be glad this occured at home and not on a trip somewhere!!!!  Your LD was gracious in that respect!

Lisa and Blue
Re: Still working on the LD that won't start
Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 97569
Lisa,

I won't ask how you know about these things. And, we are definitely going to have the rv towed. Everyone's response here certainly helped us decide.

Hopefully, someone will be out next week to tow the rv.
 I'll fill everyone in as to what the problem really is, once we know.

Thanks, all, for the advice.

Kathy
Re: Still working on the LD that won't start
Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 97570
Kathy absolutely do not drill a hole into the floor of LD.  It would have to be a huge hole to say the least and dangerous as mentioned before.
 I don't think anyone has mentioned the possibility that the Emergency Fuel Cut Off switch has been activated.  These switches are
Re: Still working on the LD that won't start
Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 97572
In-tank fuel pump failure can cause a number of engine problems, depending on the nature of the failure. A bad pump check valve can cause hard starting. Low voltage to the pump, poor connections or simply a worn-out pump can cause hard starting.
 Before you remove the fuel tank, you'll want to be absolutely sure that the pump is bad. Most pumps operate for only 1 to 2 seconds when the key is turned to run. During that short running period, the pump pressurizes and holds the system to a specified pressure. Then the pump shuts off until the engine starts and an oil pressure switch on the engine closes, which starts the pump again. If the pressure doesn't reach specification, there's a problem, but don't yank the pump yet.
 You'll want to check voltage where the pump wires enter the fuel tank. Have an assistant turn the key to run, then make sure the pump voltage is with
Re: Still working on the LD that won't start
Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 97574
Kent,

We already tried the emergency fuel pump shut off switch. Not the problem, but thanks for mentioning it. We continue to be open to any suggestions.

Thanks, again.
Kathy
Re: Still working on the LD that won't start
Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 97575
Dave,
 We're going to try your fuel pump "tapping the tank" trick tomorrow, to see if we can't get our LD to the Ford dealer.

Thanks for the advice.

Kathy
Re: Still working on the LD that won't start
Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 97578
Isn't it an alternative to put an additional fuel pump in the line? That's what we did on our 82 when the original fuel pump wasn't up to the task of pumping from our rear tank. We just added another fuel pump back by the tank.
 Also on the new rigs is it difficult to open the gas line and see if any gas comes out? It was easy on our old rig to install a T
Re: Still working on the LD that won't start
Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 97583
Paul- I think that some of my problem is that these LD's are so well built that, especially if I keep on top of maintenance, I never expect to have any repair issues. At least we're in the off-camping season.
 Michelle-I'll ask the mechanic what he thinks about a "fuel pump on the side."

Again, thanks for all of the advice.
Kathy
Re: Still working on the LD that won't start
Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 97586
Quote
Isn't it an alternative to put an additional fuel pump in the line?
That's what we did
 
Quote
on our 82 when the original fuel pump wasn't up to the task of
pumping from our

Quote
rear tank. We just added another fuel pump back by the tank.
Not the same kind of pump. Pumps for carbs are low-pressure/high volume. Those for electronic FI are high-pressure/medium volume, since the fuel injection output volume is a product of the fuel pressure times the duration the injector is open. The injector ports are very tiny, and little fuel would flow if pressure is as low as carbs need, the latter determining flow by gravity feed from the float bowl and venturi vacuum.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Still working on the LD that won't start
Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 97627
Kathy
 I am late getting into this and you have received some good advice as well as some pretty bad advice..
 If you mechanic can't tell if you have fuel pressure you need a new mechanic,
 I st thing to do is get in the vehicle and tun the key to on not start and you should hear the pump whir for about 3-5 seconds.
 If you do hear the whir then it is trying to pump....then there is a schrader valve on the fuel rail. It looks just like a air valve on one of your tires. Use something point and depress the center pin on the valve and gas should squirt out. If it does then the fuel pump isn't your problem. ( Note there are similar looking valves on the Air Conditioning lines but they aren't really the same and you should easily to tell the fuel rail it goes to the injectors.)
 If you don't hear the pump then there is a relay that drives the pump.
It can be the problem though its not as likely... Its pretty easily changed and not very expensive, easily done at the house.
 Before changing the pump you should pull the electrical connector at the pump and install a test lamp or meter. Then when you turn on the key you should see the 12 volts there for the 3-5 seconds when the key is first turned on.

If the pump is bad the you can drop the tank or cut a hole in the floor to get at the fuel pump. You don't drill onto the tank. There is an article on the net somewhere about cutting a hole in the RV floor and changing the pump then installing a marine deck plate after the work is done. If you ever have another pump failure it makes changing the pump much easier. I can't find the article right now but you must be sure where you are cutting the hole.
 We had to replace the fuel pump on my son's dodge pickup when it was pretty new.....

As far as the jacks I would think you could take them down with the battery and if you have to recharge them.

Good luck Garry
Re: Still working on the LD that won't start
Reply #22 –
Yahoo Message Number: 97646
Garry,

Thanks for the info-I printed out your response-plan to take some time and consider what you said.
 This whole "the LD won't start, and we don't know why" problem simply involves a lot of issues we never had to deal with before. Example- our mechanic came over to the house (free of charge), checked things out, and believes we have a bad fuel pump. But, he can't work on the problem, because his lifts can't handle the weight of our RV. Next, my husband considered drilling through the floor-our issues-it is cold outside, which would make the work more difficult, and because he works, this could take a long time. We worried about the RV sitting and not having its monthly run. We worried about him slipping and making a mistake. We worried about a lot of problems if we took this path.
 Luckily, we found a fellow in town who has a flatbed/truck, who came over last night and said that he could tow/take the RV to the Ford garage down the street from us. We are hoping this happens today or tomorrow. I will let everyone know how this turns out.

Garry, this is our plan as of now. However, I'll show your information to my husband. Perhaps he'll want to give this one last try at home. We certainly don't want to spend money at a garage (especially one we have never used) if we don't have to. I appreciate your input.

Kathy
Re: Still working on the LD that won't start
Reply #23 –
Yahoo Message Number: 97663
Hi Kathy,
 Do make sure the tow operator understands proper towing procedure for the LD.  The owner's manual for the 1999 we had specifically states that the drive shaft should be disconnected (and a section removed) for proper towing.

Michelle
Re: Still working on the LD that won't start
Reply #24 –
Yahoo Message Number: 97666
Michelle,
 I just read your message and called my husband (I'm getting some odds and ends done at work). He said the tow man wasn't able to come today because it's raining, but my husband will check the owner's manual and have it ready for the guy tomorrow.

Thank you for mentioning this.
Kathy