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Topic: 1987 22 ft MP chevy 350 gutless! (Read 18 times) previous topic - next topic
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1987 22 ft MP chevy 350 gutless!
Yahoo Message Number: 86035
Hello all. Thanks for all the feedback. I just purchased a 3rd owner 87 22 ft. MP that can't seem to get out of its own way--especially up an incline--pedal to the metal gets about 30 mph--scary. I realize that a 5+ ton house on wheels can't break any land records but give me a break. On aquisition, it got a full tune up--except carb. rebuilt--including all hoses replaced. New bilstein shocks all around- -they're sweet. New dual mufflers--as stock as possible; previous mufflers were truck type that made the beast sound --well--like a truck beast. It got 7 new 225 16 E-rated BF Goodrich tires & stock (take off) 16 inch rims---thanks to the advice on tire/ rim size from this group. And of course it got aligned & brakes checked at Anderson's alignment in GG Ca. It still needs the roof re-sealed, inside detailed/ sanitized, appliances checked, & passanger side entrance step re-attached---it did not survive an enthusiastic egres from a 200 lbs back yard mechanic--yours trully. Above work to be done next weeks at El Toro RV in Irvine Ca. I was contemplating having the beast dyno-tuned at the Santee Dyno-shop in San Diego--a 2 hour drive--but I'm afraid to get runned off the road by some wipper- snapper with an attention span of a nat--thanks MTV. Here's my questions, does dual exhaust descrease torque--as the service guy at Anderson's suggested? How much increased performance would the Dyno- shop give---is it worth the money & risk of the drive? Or should I just cut to the chase & install a mucho mula speed shop crate 350 with 300+ HP engine that might not pass Ca. smog check--yikes I'll never live that one down.                      Thanks again for all the feedback.
Re: 1987 22 ft MP chevy 350 gutless!
Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 86036
Dyno tuning is not going to fix the issue that you've got an anemic stock 350 chevy, which while being great motors, in stock form in 87 it was probably putting about 225 HP to the flywheel.  Take into consideration that it probably has some miles on it and maybe lost some of the original power, and you are turning a heavy transmission, a very long driveshaft, and turning a heavy rear end with large tires.
I would speculate if you do take it to a dyno shop you probably have less than 125 HP at the rear wheels.  It's just not enough.  The only thing that a dyno tune is going to do is get the motor running at the proper STOICIMETRIC Air Fuel ratio.  (Which according to the government is about 14.7 to 1)  However best Horsepower comes a little richer around  12.8 or 13 to 1.  Depending on where you live the shop may not tune to that because of emissions issues.   The other problem with carbs is they can tune them to be at the proper A/F ratio, for the elevation of the shop or town it's done at, but the minute you go up or down in elevation the A/F ratio changes because of the density of the air.  That's why I like fuel injection.  But that's another bunch of bucks and work.  Dual exhaust might decrease torque, but I doubt it would be enough to even be measurable.  Now your suggestion of getting a speed shop crate motor is a good one.  But, if you're going to go down that road I would suggest getting a stroker small block chevy.  There are lots of different ones out there, 383 being the most common.  If you're going to spend the money for an engine, you may as well spend a couple thousand more and get something in there that is really going to perform well and make you happy and get you down the road they way you want.  I copied a link to Pro Formance Chevy stroker motors.  They have a 475 HP small block Chevy 383, that will bolt right into your motorhome.  Once you get that put in there, then take it to the dyno shop and have the carb dialed in.
http://chevystreetperformance.com/383_420drop.htm
Re: 1987 22 ft MP chevy 350 gutless!
Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 86037
Oh, I forgot to add, if you do the stroker motor, I don't think you will have any California emissions issues.  It is the same size (as far as they know) engine that the vehicle came with, and it will be carbureted as was the original.  Theoretically all you should have to do is pass emissions, which shouldn't be a problem.  BTW, I am sure you can find people in So Cal building those same engines, I just happened to pull up a builder from New Jersey.  If you get a motor like that, I would run headers, a High flow Catylitic converter and a good muffler like Flowmaster 70 series, and a good 3" mandrel bent tail pipe.  You would get just as much flow out of a good single exhaust like that versus a dual exhaust.
Re: 1987 22 ft MP chevy 350 gutless!
Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 86039
Manuel,
 Has the fuel filter been replaced? A partially clogged filter is one likely cause of anemic operation under load.

bumper

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bumper
"Yonder" '05 MB
"WLDBLU" glider trailer
Re: 1987 22 ft MP chevy 350 gutless!
Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 86040
Quote
Manuel,
 Has the fuel filter been replaced? A partially clogged filter is one
likely cause of anemic operation under load.

Quote
bumper

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Bumper-thanks for the hot tip...I'll sure try that!!
Re: 1987 22 ft MP chevy 350 gutless!
Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 86041
Quote
an incline--pedal to the metal gets about 30 mph--scary. I realize that a 5+ ton house on wheels can't break any land records but give me a break. On aquisition, it got a full tune up--except carb. rebuilt--including all hoses replaced. New bilstein shocks all
Can you be more specific about performance? Post here your speeds up various grades and at what altitudes, weather, etc. Many here can then tell you if you have a problem or not.

For example, in our loaded-down '83, I will slow to 45 going northbound up the Grapevine's steepest sections on I5. Other parts I can maintain 50 - 55 mph. At 9000', I'm lucky to make 25 mph on the steepest grades. I know its little heart is pumping as best it can.
 Because of CARB, you will find there are limited solutions to lack of power and torque in the carbureted 350. If yours is doing the best it can and it's a problem for you, the most economical solution will be to sell and get a newer model.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: 1987 22 ft MP chevy 350 gutless!
Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 86053
Every LD with the Chevy 350, including our 1983 LD, was gutless from day one. Many owners had dual exhaust, with a crossover or "H" pipe installed and this is the one mod that seemed to really help.
Beyond that, you just need to readjust your driving style.
I grew up with VWs and made many trips up to the Eastern Sierras driving VW buses. Your LD has more power than a VW bus, if that makes you feel better

A couple of thing you might check. The distributor's centrifugal advance mechanism has a tendency to freeze up. Remove the distributor cap and see if the rotor turns back and forth easily. If not, try lubing the shaft with a light oil to see it that frees it. If that does not help, the distributor will need to be removed and disassembled.
The Q-Jet carb is a complex carburetor and there are few mechanics remaining that know how to make them work. I ended up replacing ours with an Edlebrook Performer carb. They are much easier to tune and parts are still readily available.
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/carbs_acc/performer.shtml
 As for replacing the engine with a high performance crate engine, you are now entering a world of major modifications. You would ideally want to replace the carburetor with an after-market electronic fuel injection system. Holley is one choice.
The stock cast iron headers are restrictive should be replaced with headers.
The stock cooling system is barely adequate for the stock motor. When you significantly increase the power, the heat generated will also increase. Plan on a BIG radiator and additional coolers.
To take advantage of the power, you will probability want either a
4-speed transmission (4L80E), one with over drive, or add an overdrive
 to the rear of your existing transmission. The add-on overdrive is cheaper but requires that the drive shaft be shortened.
Once you start making major modifications, you will play around with getting everything dialed in for months or longer. I only recommend this if you are a serious mechanic who appreciates a good challenge.

When you start adding up the all the expenses, it can easily exceed the value of the motorhome, especially if you do not perform the work yourself. How much are you willing to invest n a 20-year old motor home? Besides the engine, there are hundreds of other components that are wearing or rotting away. For example, all of the rubber and plastic parts in the cab, the heating and A/C, the window mechanisms, the plastic dash and rubber door seals. They are or will go bad and replacements parts are becoming difficult or impossible to get.
Steve's suggestion that if the existing situation in unacceptable to you, replacing the rig with a newer one is the best and most economical choice.
We replaced our 1983 22'FL with a 2003 23.5' FL and the difference was like night and day. The new rig is stronger in every way and gets better mileage.
I would just go ahead a drive it and get use to it.  You will find that it will get you to just about anyplace you want, just a little slower than what you are accustomed too.
In today's fast paced world, it might be a good learning experience.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: 1987 22 ft MP chevy 350 gutless!
Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 86062
Quote
I just purchased a 3rd owner 87 22 ft. MP that can't seem to get out of its own way--especially up an incline--pedal to the metal gets about 30 mph--scary. I realize that a 5+ ton house on wheels can't break any land records but give me a break. On aquisition, it got a full tune up--except carb. rebuilt--including all hoses replaced.

I was contemplating having the beast dyno-tuned at the Santee Dyno-shop in San Diego
Congratulations on your purchase.  I know very little about engines/carburetors/transmissions but I'd recommend giving the Dyno tune shop in San Diego a try as that is what I did. I bought my 1987 MP in Orange County at the end of April.  Stayed in San Diego area for a few weeks trying things out preparing for the trip home (Idaho at the time).  Mine also had major problems with hills or gaining speed to get on the freeway, very dangerous.  In San Diego I remember going up Balboa avenue from Pacific Beach into Clairemont Mesa and maybe going 15 mph up that hill.
 The Dyno shop fit me in without a appointment and let me stay in there secured yard while it was being worked on.  There are many large shopping centers/eating establishments that can be walked from the shop.  They started with a dyno diagnostic and found all sorts of problems.  All the hoses and belts had been replaced on mine by former owner except the vacuum hoses for the carburetor.  A plug used for testing the carburetor was missing.  They rebuilt the carb and did all sorts of other stuff, headers to replace cracked exhaust manifold, it already had dual exhaust.  It was unbelievable what they were able to do to it.

In reality I understand my 20 year old Lazy Daze with 350 engine is not a race car.  But the difference before and after made it feel like one.  I would say it now drives like it should drive, still small engine but much much faster then before.  Now that I have been using it for five months I drive it much slower then what it can do.  With the amount of gasoline that it uses and my limited budget I am trying to squeeze as much mileage as I can out of it.  I am now trying to not drive faster then 55mph, take hills slowly, accelerate as slow as reasonable when getting on the highways, try to stay off roads with high speed limits if possible to reduce chances of being hit from behind by passing vehicles.

I am very happy that I bought it and enjoying it greatly.
 For a list of items that was repaired/replaced with costs at the Dyno Shop see Message #84637.

Quote
a 2 hour drive--but I'm afraid to get runned off the road
From what I remember there are not too many hills on I-5 or I-15 down into San Diego to be concerned about, if that is the way you would be traveling.  I did not have any problem going from Orange County to San Diego on I-5.  I do remember a smaller hill on route 52 in San Diego going into Santee where the shop is located where it seemed as if I was standing still on the side of the road as all sorts of cars and trucks passed.  That part of the road had a 3rd lane for slower vehicles which I was in.

Good luck in whatever you choose to do and please post back on the outcome.

John 1987 MP Chevy 350 Wenatchee, WA
Re: 1987 22 ft MP chevy 350 gutless!
Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 86074
You know what else is really bad, I don't know what they are called, but the RV built on a 2 wheel drive Toyota truck.  My brother in law had one of those and I borrowed it for a trip and had to climb a mountain pass, boy those things are weak.
Re: 1987 22 ft MP chevy 350 gutless!
Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 86080
Well....we have had not one, but 2 mini motorhomes on the Toyota chassis, and loved them both!!  The first was a 4 banger Dolph
Re: 1987 22 ft MP chevy 350 gutless!
Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 86114
-Thanks everyone of you guys out there for your awesome advice!! The 87 22 ft MP is having its roof & windows re-sealed, appliances cheched out, all tanks santized, & smog checked. When I get her back, I'll try advancing the timing--until it pings then back it up a hair.
Then maybe enrich the carb. (adjust until rough idle then back up until smooth idle). Then maybe bypass the vacuum thermo switch that the vacuum advice plugs into & go directly to the carb's vacuum. I figure all the above would be a trail & error & might put some spunk
Re: 1987 22 ft MP chevy 350 gutless!
Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 86115
"As for safety, it only has lap seat belts for christ sakes! Maybe that should be the major clue that this beast was not designed for speed but for comfort"

If you remove the door trim, you should find threaded inserts where the shoulder belts can be installed. Our 1983 LD came from the Factory with shoulder belts and it would make an excellent addition in yours.
I added shoulder belts to a friend's 1985 LD.  We found the needed parts at the local Pick-A-Part wrecking yard. A crashed Chevy van provided the belts, retractors and hardware for less than $50.
Does your LD have seats that can rotate to the rear?  Our seats were fixed and I have notice that models that had rotating seats usually did not have shoulder belts.

"Do these engines peter out early in their lives?? Who knows how the previous owner cared for her"

Actually, the 350 V-8s are a very good engine. Most that suffered early deaths were the result of overheating, normally due to lack of maintenance or attention to the temperature gauge.
Our 83 LD had a marginal cooling system, which I upgraded with the largest available radiator and the addition of a Desert Super Cooler.
http://www.rvjournal.com/SuperCooler.html It's a simple device that sprays a water mist into the front of the radiator. It did an excellent job of cooling things down on hot summer days. I could watch the temperature gauge quickly drop when it was activated.
 Of it were me, I would leave the interior intact and learn to love the retro look.
$3000 can buy many miles of gasoline. Hitting the road is what its all about.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: 1987 22 ft MP chevy 350 gutless!
Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 86119
Who knows how the previous owner cared for her-
 
Quote
after all it was a girl who owned her prevoiusly-----ouch--sexist statement---OMG--what a jerk---etc. I know---so. By the way, the inside of this beast is pink or rosey or mauve--whatever. It is going to cost me 3000 big ones to re-do the entire inside. A shame for sure since she hardly has a rip on her shirt--so to speak.....
Hey, Manuel...

Find your feminine side!!   Accent with browns/greys, hang a few shop calenders (you know the ones I mean

Good luck beefing up your engine.

Lisa and Blue '90 Chevy 454 with lap belts.
 PS:  Lisa has been helping her dad restore cars since she was 13, and she's no spring chicken!  Oh, and she does check the tires, fluids almost every morning of a trip!  Some guys don't do that  (us ladies can be sexist, too)
Re: 1987 22 ft MP chevy 350 gutless!
Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 86129
whatever. It is going to cost me 3000 big ones to re-do the entire inside. A shame for sure since she hardly has a rip on her shirt--so to speak.>>

Hi Manual, I'm going to ignore your previous sexist comment and try to help you in spite of it.  :)

You seem very handy, so I'm going to offer some alternatives that won't add up to $3000 to redo the interior.  They will allow you to have a completely different look too in very little time.
 Flooring:  Rip out the carpet and put in some vinyl tiles or pergo (2 days, $300)
 Cover the cab seats in seatcovers from auto store sources ($200 max)
 Paint the walls of the kitchen and bathroom any color you like ($30)

Remove the valances- free

Drape and tuck in some soft, neutral blankets from Target, etc over the sofas.  Andy's Skylark has a tan one over his sofa and it looks and feels awesome!  He could give you a price ($40?)

Now, you do still have some pink in the overhead, the dinette, and the cab area, right?

Well, you could either pay someone to recover the cushions on the dinette and cabover, buy some fitted slipcovers, or keep those covered with blankets or throws.  Or you could learn to sew if you don't know how and do it yourself.

For the cab floor, I'm sure you could get creative and find some rubber bed liner or floor mats to cover whatever remains.

Make some curtains to match whatever "theme" you want for your rig.
Buy a cool Shower curtain.  Update your faucets from an inexpensive eBay source.

I just think you could change the whole look on minimal funds using your creativity and resourcefulness.

Good luck and please take some before and after pictures for us!

Tessa in TX '92 MB - Ciao Baby!
Re: 1987 22 ft MP chevy 350 gutless!
Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 86135
-Ouch!!! Good one Lisa. Afer some thought, I guess I'm trying to beef up the engine to compensate for the way I feel
Re: 1987 22 ft MP chevy 350 gutless!
Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 86137
Quote
I'll try advancing the timing--until it pings then back it up a
Ok, bear in mind that demands on this engine change radically when creeping up a grade in 2nd gear vs. cruising up I5. You don't want to have to pull the doghouse and readjust ignition timing in the middle of a vacation trip up the 11% grade into Death Valley! As Larry said, gummed up centrifugal advance inside the distributor is common - a maintenance I attend to at least every other year, affecting performance and driveability.

Quote
Then maybe enrich the carb. (adjust until rough idle then back up until smooth idle). Then maybe bypass the vacuum thermo switch that the vacuum advice plugs into & go directly to the carb's vacuum. I figure all the above would be a trail & error & might put some spunk in her.
The Rochester 4bbl is NOT a tinkerer's delight. It IS fairly easy for a competent mechanically-minded person to rebuild with care - eliminating vacuum leaks, fuel leaks, porous floats, etc. However, playing with metering rods, idle mixtures, etc can leave you running to the store for a new Holley or Edelbrock replacement. That's expensive.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: 1987 22 ft MP chevy 350 gutless!
Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 86138
Larry--excellent feedback regarding the lap belts. As for the retro look---pink!!!!!It's going to take some getting use to. Don't get me wrong, pink at the right place, situation, moment, dimm lights etc.can be awesome but on the inside of my ride---chucks-who knows how it would effect me.
Re: 1987 22 ft MP chevy 350 gutless!
Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 86141
Thanks for the workable tips--Tessa. Oh, and, you're a good sport.
You know I mean no offense. It's all fun at this level. I just feel some some of gender challenge when I'm inside of her too long--the RV I mean....
Re: 1987 22 ft MP chevy 350 gutless!
Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 86162
Quote
-Thanks for the warning Steve. Now that you mention a Holly carb, do you think it would be street legal in california---pass smog check
Pretty sure they do - check the Holley site and look for CARB certified models for the 'VIN M' Chevy 350 from that year. Note that the Holley will not perform better than a properly operating Rochester - both are tied to operating in smog-legal trim. However, as far as I know, no FI conversions are legal for that engine, though Holley makes one of these, too. You CAN convert to a factory FI system form a later year, but you will have to get the engine then certified to meet emmisions for that year, a tough sell.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: 1987 22 ft MP chevy 350 gutless!
Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 86166
I'm wondering why you bought this rig when there's so many things you don't like and want to change?

:)

Not bashing, just curious.

Fern

manuel.gomez95 wrote:
Fern Horst
Formerly owned:
1979 TK - "Dorie" (2007-2012)
2003 MB - "Absaroka" (2012-2019)